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Old 07-21-2013, 04:15 AM   #31
nooneuknow
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Originally Posted by Worf View Post
Well, the problem was the dominant OS was Windows XP, which lacked all support for 4K, and even worse, always misaligned the partition. If you ran Linux, no problem.

Windows 7 doesn't quite support 4K native, but Windows 8 does. Windows 7 however stuck to a much saner partitioning scheme which didn't misalign partitions (and actually aligns it for SSDs).

Of course, 4K drives are nothing compared to SSDs which require even more special alignment to a block (128-256k).
Well, as soon as MS ends all access to support and Windows/Microsoft update, that stubborn XP might finally take the slide in numbers it has defied. Does XP still have access to updates? I've got a few dormant XP units around that I should update, if it's still an option.

The delicate issue with the blanket statement of "Linux=no problem", is that TiVo is a "Tivoized" Linux OS (take a look on Wikipedia, and you'll find that term and an article all about it). I understand that this whole APM - Apple Partition M(whatever it actually stands for), is yet some other TiVoized part of the mix, which I think is where the problem lies...

I don't want to go Off-Topic... But you brought up SSDs, which are giant flash drives. How does one take a USB (flash memory) stick, and determine what sector size to format it with, other than trial-and-error, by measuring what sector size gives the best read/write times? Is there a tool that can "suss" that information out? Sometimes you just can't go to a website and get that info, especially when many of the drives give no indication of who even made any one part of the whole. I know Windows 8 can somehow figure it out. I just started with Win7, and Win8 isn't for me at all...
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:31 AM   #32
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Updates to XP will continue until April 8, 2014. After that it will still run fine but without ongoing security patches I'd probably limit my use of it to running older software and keep it away from the internet.

It's had a hell of a run.
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:16 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
You have to copy block0 and the APM as well as the everything in the other partitions otherwise the tivo will not boot. I am surprised that dd actually copied the partitions individually. As a general rule, the TiVo drive is not a standard anything drive. It is not a standard apple drive, Linux drive, Windows drive. Consequently, unless something is specifically written to access a tivo drive, no standard OS tool will work. In JMFS, the dd command works because it is doing a raw copy that is agnostic to what is on the drive.

Did you mod the actual TiVo drive? What were the sizes of the img files you created for each partition.
Since I restored a truncated image to the drive first, there was no need to copy block 0. I didn't copy the APM, as that would overwrite the corrected partition table I created with the original one.

The image files were the same size as the partitions.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:22 AM   #34
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Could you post the MFSinfo information on your modified drive.
Just so I understand your process, you first restored the truncated image, backed up each partition, modified the partition structure with pdisk, then restored each partition.
I like that. :thumbup: Did not even think out using dd on a tivo drive that way. It's a good day when you learn something new. Much easier to do it that way than with iBored as it is more automated.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:43 PM   #35
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Could you post the MFSinfo information on your modified drive.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Header
state=0 magic=ebbafeed
devlist=/dev/hda10 /dev/hda11 /dev/hda12 /dev/hda13
zonemap_ptr=1121 total_secs=1951672320
---------------------------------------------------------------------
MFS volume set for /dev/sda
The MFS volume set contains 4 partitions
Partition sectors size
/dev/sda10 589824 288 MiB
/dev/sda11 876054528 427761 MiB
/dev/sda12 589824 288 MiB
/dev/sda13 1074438144 524628 MiB
Total MFS sectors: 1951672320d
Total MFS volume size: 952965 MiB
Estimated hours in a standalone TiVo: 1181
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Zone Maps
Zone 0: type=0
map_start=1121 map_size=1 backup_map_start=589822
next_map_start=263266 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=589788
zone_first=1122 zone_last=263265 zone_size=262144 min(chunk)=262144
free=262144 checksum=1675366169 logstamp=12362757 num_bitmap=1
Zone 1: type=2
map_start=263266 map_size=34 backup_map_start=589788
next_map_start=263300 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=589754
zone_first=589824 zone_last=876642303 zone_size=876052480 min(chunk)=20480
free=3911680 checksum=3444533777 logstamp=12363028 num_bitmap=17
Zone 2: type=1
map_start=263300 map_size=34 backup_map_start=589754
next_map_start=876644352 next_map_size=1 next_backup_map_start=877234175
zone_first=263334 zone_last=589749 zone_size=326416 min(chunk)=8
free=49840 checksum=4206158201 logstamp=12363028 num_bitmap=17
Zone 3: type=0
map_start=876644352 map_size=1 backup_map_start=877234175
next_map_start=876906497 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=877234141
zone_first=876644353 zone_last=876906496 zone_size=262144 min(chunk)=262144
free=262144 checksum=580165030 logstamp=12362757 num_bitmap=1
Zone 4: type=2
map_start=876906497 map_size=34 backup_map_start=877234141
next_map_start=876906531 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=877234107
zone_first=877234176 zone_last=1951655935 zone_size=1074421760 min(chunk)=20480
free=6676480 checksum=18646780 logstamp=12363028 num_bitmap=17
Zone 5: type=1
map_start=876906531 map_size=34 backup_map_start=877234107
next_map_start=0 next_map_size=0 next_backup_map_start=-6148914691236517206
zone_first=876906565 zone_last=877234100 zone_size=327536 min(chunk)=8
free=260720 checksum=4206404614 logstamp=12362757 num_bitmap=17
Total Inodes = 262144
This MFS volume may be expanded 4 more times
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by cuda74360 : 07-21-2013 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
Just so I understand your process, you first restored the truncated image, backed up each partition, modified the partition structure with pdisk, then restored each partition.
I like that. Did not even think out using dd on a tivo drive that way. It's a good day when you learn something new. Much easier to do it that way than with iBored as it is more automated.
Yes, that is what I did.

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Old 07-21-2013, 05:42 PM   #37
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Could you post the WinMFS version of MFSInfo output as well
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:18 PM   #38
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Could you post the WinMFS version of MFSInfo output as well
no can do... don't have a windows box
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:19 PM   #39
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No problem. How about the pdisk output.
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:27 PM   #40
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No problem. How about the pdisk output.
Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/sdb'
#: type name length base ( size )
1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
2: Image Bootstrap 1 8 @ 876054592
3: Image Kernel 1 8192 @ 876054600 ( 4.0M)
4: Ext2 Root 1 524288 @ 876062792 (256.0M)
5: Image Bootstrap 2 8 @ 876587080
6: Image Kernel 2 8192 @ 876587088 ( 4.0M)
7: Ext2 Root 2 524288 @ 876595280 (256.0M)
8: Swap Linux swap 262144 @ 877119568 (128.0M)
9: Ext2 /var 524288 @ 877381712 (256.0M)
10: MFS MFS application region 589824 @ 877906000 (288.0M)
11: MFS MFS media region 876054528 @ 64 (417.7G)
12: MFS Second MFS application region 589824 @ 878495824 (288.0M)
13: MFS Second MFS media region 1074438144 @ 879085648 (512.3G)
14: Apple_Free Extra 1376 @ 1953523792

Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=1953525168 (931.5G)
DeviceType=0x0, DeviceId=0x0
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:33 PM   #41
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Since you started out with a 1TB drive and you expanded the bootstrap partitions, what partition(s) did you short to get the extra space to expand the bootstrap partitions.

A couple of things come to mind with your OP problem. One, the truncated backup could be damaged from the rebooting issue. Might try a backup from another source. The other might be capacitors that are going bad and need to be replaced. (That was my problem).

One last thing. Some drive diagnostics program can/will 'recertify' a failing drive as it is testing it such that it may pass diagnostics again. See if you have a program that will check to see if a drive has been reassigning any sectors. There has to be enough reassigning of sectors for the SMART to trigger but the dynamic reallocation of sectors can also cause some of the same problems.
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:46 PM   #42
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Since you started out with a 1TB drive and you expanded the bootstrap partitions, what partition(s) did you short to get the extra space to expand the bootstrap partitions.
Partition #14, Apple_Free Extra, shrunk from 1390 to 1376.

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Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
A couple of things come to mind with your OP problem. One, the truncated backup could be damaged from the rebooting issue. Might try a backup from another source. The other might be capacitors that are going bad and need to be replaced. (That was my problem).
I restored the truncated backup to the original drive and it's been running great for the past 2 days. I don't think that backup is the issue.

The capacitors are not bulging or leaking. Since it's working fine with the original drive, I'd guess that the capacitors are probably fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
One last thing. Some drive diagnostics program can/will 'recertify' a failing drive as it is testing it such that it may pass diagnostics again. See if you have a program that will check to see if a drive has been reassigning any sectors. There has to be enough reassigning of sectors for the SMART to trigger but the dynamic reallocation of sectors can also cause some of the same problems.
I'll see what I can come up with.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:25 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cuda74360 View Post
Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/sdb'
#: type name length base ( size )
1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
2: Image Bootstrap 1 8 @ 876054592
3: Image Kernel 1 8192 @ 876054600 ( 4.0M)
4: Ext2 Root 1 524288 @ 876062792 (256.0M)
5: Image Bootstrap 2 8 @ 876587080
6: Image Kernel 2 8192 @ 876587088 ( 4.0M)
7: Ext2 Root 2 524288 @ 876595280 (256.0M)
8: Swap Linux swap 262144 @ 877119568 (128.0M)
9: Ext2 /var 524288 @ 877381712 (256.0M)
10: MFS MFS application region 589824 @ 877906000 (288.0M)
11: MFS MFS media region 876054528 @ 64 (417.7G)
12: MFS Second MFS application region 589824 @ 878495824 (288.0M)
13: MFS Second MFS media region 1074438144 @ 879085648 (512.3G)
14: Apple_Free Extra 1376 @ 1953523792

Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=1953525168 (931.5G)
DeviceType=0x0, DeviceId=0x0
Any reason for using the Series 1 "non-optimized" partition layout?
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:39 PM   #44
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Interesting, did not realize that original HD XL drive had an apple_free partition at the end.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:43 PM   #45
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Interesting, did not realize that original HD XL drive had an apple_free partition at the end.
DVR_DUDE's 2TB drives for the TCD746320 Premiere, and TCD652160 HD both have apple_free spaces on them as well.

I wonder if there is a legitimate need for them...
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:07 AM   #46
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DVR_DUDE's 2TB drives for the TCD746320 Premiere, and TCD652160 HD both have apple_free spaces on them as well.

I wonder if there is a legitimate need for them...
Not really. I read in another post that the extra space came because they used a smaller swap partition when they image a drive. (64 instead of 128) In fact, one person had a replacement drive for their TiVo from one of them and JMFS expansion process was not recognized by the tivo until that apple_free partition was deleted and then jmfs expansion was performed. For TiVos that WinMFS and MFSLive work on, they recognize that the apple_free partition is really just free space and uses it to expand. JMFS does not and creates the expansion partition after the apple_free space (partition).
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:16 AM   #47
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Not really. I read in another post that the extra space came because they used a smaller swap partition when they image a drive. (64 instead of 128) In fact, one person had a replacement drive for their TiVo from one of them and JMFS expansion process was not recognized by the tivo until that apple_free partition was deleted and then jmfs expansion was performed. For TiVos that WinMFS and MFSLive work on, they recognize that the apple_free partition is really just free space and uses it to expand. JMFS does not and creates the expansion partition after the apple_free space (partition).
Could the apple_free space, if not at the end of the drive, be used as a means to achieve 4K alignment (in partitions after the apple_free space)? Could you have multiple areas of apple_free space used as "spacers" to nudge alignment?

I've been wondering this for a long time, and just now thought to post it.
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:33 AM   #48
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Updates to XP will continue until April 8, 2014. After that it will still run fine but without ongoing security patches I'd probably limit my use of it to running older software and keep it away from the internet.

It's had a hell of a run.
Partially correct. XP left mainstream support on April 14, 2009. This means that XP will no longer get any feature updates at all. Right now, Microsoft is providing 5 extra years of "extended support" which means the only thing XP is getting is security updates.

During mainstream support, it'll get feature improvements and security updates. After that phase passes, it's in extended support where there are no more feature improvements (including things like new IE versions and such) but it will still get security fixes.

And that Apple_Free partition is leftover space that can't be used - it's not terribly big (about 768k or so), just the result of partitioning ending up with free space.

I admit though, when I copied my TiVo drive to a new drive, I didn't bother realigning the partitions - the MFS data partition is written in such huge strips (1MB or so - about a second of video) that any performance loss due to the Read-Modify-Write will be minimal, if at all (because writes are cached, so if another write happens, it'll update the whole sector anyhow).

Of course, the MFS application region is a bigger concern because the updates to it will be slower.

Then again, the TiVo doesn't exactly demand a lot of performance from the hard drive...
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #49
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Could the apple_free space, if not at the end of the drive, be used as a means to achieve 4K alignment (in partitions after the apple_free space)? Could you have multiple areas of apple_free space used as "spacers" to nudge alignment?

I've been wondering this for a long time, and just now thought to post it.
That is a good use of the apple_free partition. However you don't need any apple_free partitions between partitions. The best approach is what was described in an earlier post. You can make the partitions bigger without causing problems, just cannot make them smaller. The extra space in the partitions is ignored.
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:30 AM   #50
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Any reason for using the Series 1 "non-optimized" partition layout?
The MFS Live CD's other way puts the MFS partitions at the end of the drive.

The "optimized" way is what I chose, since it split the MFS partitions similarly to the way it was done on the factory drive.
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:34 AM   #51
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Interesting, did not realize that original HD XL drive had an apple_free partition at the end.
It didn't. That only showed up after restoring the truncated image from MFS Live. It worked though, as otherwise there was no free space to do the realignment.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:03 AM   #52
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It didn't. That only showed up after restoring the truncated image from MFS Live. It worked though, as otherwise there was no free space to do the realignment.
Okay. Too bad we don't have a pdisk print out of the original partition structure to see what changed with MFSLive restore.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:34 PM   #53
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Okay. Too bad we don't have a pdisk print out of the original partition structure to see what changed with MFSLive restore.
I made a printout of the original pdisk output, but misplaced it.

I'm not sure it matters though... as I tried a JMFS copy of the original drive to the new 4K drive and still experienced the same sluggish performance.

The problems only occur with the 4K drive.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:24 PM   #54
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More for self education on how MFSLive works on a drive.

Have you tried another 4k drive. Might be just the drive.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:53 PM   #55
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Could the apple_free space, if not at the end of the drive, be used as a means to achieve 4K alignment (in partitions after the apple_free space)? Could you have multiple areas of apple_free space used as "spacers" to nudge alignment?

I've been wondering this for a long time, and just now thought to post it.
Yes, you can. The Apple_Free partitions are just APM's way of marking free space.
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:33 PM   #56
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More for self education on how MFSLive works on a drive.

Have you tried another 4k drive. Might be just the drive.
No, I haven't.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:18 AM   #57
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At the risk of being totally off-base (having not kept up with state-of-the-art), aren't there jumpers on the WD10EURX drive dealing with Advanced Format? Is there any need to consider how the jumpers are set?
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:34 AM   #58
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At the risk of being totally off-base (having not kept up with state-of-the-art), aren't there jumpers on the WD10EURX drive dealing with Advanced Format? Is there any need to consider how the jumpers are set?
From the WD website:

"Early 3.5-inch WD drives with Advanced Format supported jumper pins 7 – 8. Placing a jumper on these pins adjusted the drive’s internal alignment for single partition XP installations. Support for this jumper setting is no longer needed on newer drives."

So, this setting won't help since TiVo, and Linux in general, uses multiple partitions.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:32 PM   #59
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The MFS Live CD's other way puts the MFS partitions at the end of the drive.

The "optimized" way is what I chose, since it split the MFS partitions similarly to the way it was done on the factory drive.
I realized later that I'd probably not looked at your partition map closely enough (or with enough sleep under my belt) and was probably mistaken in what I said, and sure enough, I was wrong.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:50 PM   #60
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I realized later that I'd probably not looked at your partition map closely enough (or with enough sleep under my belt) and was probably mistaken in what I said, and sure enough, I was wrong.
There's yet another thing you and I share, or have in common: Posting while sleep deprived.
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