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Old 07-09-2013, 03:56 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
Yes, you obviously do need to rewatch, as well as reread, since there are two obvious holes in that story that I already pointed out.

Anyway, Deb said she remembers standing over his body, but she did not remember anything else.
I suggest us both rewatch.

I'd bet money I heard her say the words "I shot him".
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #32
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I suggest us both rewatch.
That's a very good idea.


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I'd bet money I heard her say the words "I shot him".
That's a very bad idea.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:09 AM   #33
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Just rewatched. Dexter says I know you killed santo, what happened? She said she doesn't remember but that the next thing she remembers is she's standing over a dead body. I still don't get any indication that she doesn't think she killed him nor should the audience think otherwise, IMO.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:32 AM   #34
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So she could not have gotten out of the storage unit fast enough to get in her car and follow him, but she did get out of the storage unit fast enough to walk up to his car and shoot him?
I'm not sure why you are so confused. I already said the story that she shot him has two big holes. Hint: that means I do not think it is plausible that Deb shot El Sapo.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:37 AM   #35
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Just rewatched. Dexter says I know you killed santo, what happened? She said she doesn't remember but that the next thing she remembers is she's standing over a dead body. I still don't get any indication that she doesn't think she killed him nor should the audience think otherwise, IMO.
So, you admit Deb did not say the words "I shot him". How much money do you owe me?

And you need to rewatch again. There is no "santo". It is El Sapo.

Just because Dexter mostly convinced Deb that she shot El Sapo does not mean that she actually did it. As I already said, there are two big holes in the story if Deb shot him, and in addition to Deb saying that she is fuzzy about it and has no memory of shooting El Sapo, we know that Deb was very out of it since she just got the sht kicked out of her and when she stumbled home she was so confused that she could not even shut her outside door.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:40 AM   #36
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Maybe since both Dexter and Breaking Bad are ending they'll spin off Deb in Breaking Bad II.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:45 AM   #37
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So, you admit Deb did not say the words "I shot him". How much money do you owe me?

And you need to rewatch again. There is no "santo". It is El Sapo.

Just because Dexter mostly convinced Deb that she shot El Sapo does not mean that she actually did it. As I already said, there are two big holes in the story if Deb shot him, and in addition to Deb saying that she is fuzzy about it and has no memory of shooting El Sapo, we know that Deb was very out of it since she just got the sht kicked out of her and when she stumbled home she was so confused that she could not even shut her outside door.
Have you rewatched it yet?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:40 AM   #38
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The whole Deb/El Sapo murder things makes no sense to me. Either the this is sloppy TV, or a big piece of the puzzle is missing.
  • I don't think El Sapo was killed in the storage unit's parking lot. I doubt Deb would have been able escape and to track him down so quickly.
  • If Deb killed El Sapo, why would she need try to cover it up? He gave her a bad enough beating, he's a known hitman, and she has friends in the local PD. She could probably pin the murder of the guy she was with from episode 1 on El Sapo too.
  • She "kind of" suggests to Dexter she killed him, but seemed super vague about it, but why would she suggest she did it if she's so vague about it? I think she would have just said to Dexter "I don't know what happened." Seems like a misdirection the show is giving us.
The paranoid side of me wants to suggest her boss had something to do with it. Why? <shrug>TV Magic..</shrug>
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:45 AM   #39
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I agree that El Sapo probably wasn't killed in the storage parking lot. That would also explain why she could get another gun.

I would expect most of our questions/concerns to be cleared up next week. Sometimes I think they do this just to keep us talking for a week! lol
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:19 PM   #40
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The whole Deb/El Sapo murder things makes no sense to me. Either the this is sloppy TV, or a big piece of the puzzle is missing.
  • I don't think El Sapo was killed in the storage unit's parking lot. I doubt Deb would have been able escape and to track him down so quickly.
  • If Deb killed El Sapo, why would she need try to cover it up? He gave her a bad enough beating, he's a known hitman, and she has friends in the local PD. She could probably pin the murder of the guy she was with from episode 1 on El Sapo too.
  • She "kind of" suggests to Dexter she killed him, but seemed super vague about it, but why would she suggest she did it if she's so vague about it? I think she would have just said to Dexter "I don't know what happened." Seems like a misdirection the show is giving us.
The paranoid side of me wants to suggest her boss had something to do with it. Why? <shrug>TV Magic..</shrug>
Regarding the bolded, the fact that she was beaten doesn't matter. The way El Sapo was killed cannot be passed off as self-defense for the beating Deb took. How is she going to be able to explain that he beat her up and then got back in his car and then she shot him? That's not self defense.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:54 PM   #41
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The whole Deb/El Sapo murder things makes no sense to me. Either the this is sloppy TV, or a big piece of the puzzle is missing.[list][*]I don't think El Sapo was killed in the storage unit's parking lot. I doubt Deb would have been able escape and to track him down so quickly.
Well said, I agree with everything you wrote. Note that the crime scene where El Sapo's body was found was clearly different from the parking lot of the storage place -- no doubt about that. And although it was not mentioned, I assume that the forensics team would be able to tell if the shooting had happened elsewhere and the car was moved to the new location, so we can assume that the shooting happened at the crime scene we saw. Which means, as you say, that Deb probably would not be able to get up and out, get a gun, follow El Sapo, and shoot him in the shape she was in.

Since Deb did not shoot El Sapo, what is the deal with her remembering standing over the body? And her blood on the outside of the car? I can think of two possibilities. One is that she did manage to drag herself out of the storage unit to her car, and then she heard the gunshots and went to look (probably leaned into the car looking for the jewelry, got her blood on it). Second, someone (possibly Elway? no evidence for that, but he just seems creepy) tried to frame Deb, probably drugged her, and somehow took her along to scene, shot El Sapo, planted Deb's blood, and then left her there in a fog. A longshot third possibility I just thought of -- Hannah's plotline was never really resolved. Could she be back and gunning for Deb?
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:08 PM   #42
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Regarding the bolded, the fact that she was beaten doesn't matter. The way El Sapo was killed cannot be passed off as self-defense for the beating Deb took. How is she going to be able to explain that he beat her up and then got back in his car and then she shot him? That's not self defense.
You'd make a terrible defense lawyer. It could easily be spun as self-defense. Deb follows the guy to get the jewelry back and to possibly hold El Sapo until the police can come for him. When she approaches his car, he reaches for his gun and she shoots in self-defense. Given her law enforcement background, and his hit man background, and the fact that she was already beat up, this would be a very easy case to make.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:17 PM   #43
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You'd make a terrible defense lawyer. It could easily be spun as self-defense. Deb follows the guy to get the jewelry back and to possibly hold El Sapo until the police can come for him. When she approaches his car, he reaches for his gun and she shoots in self-defense. Given her law enforcement background, and his hit man background, and the fact that she was already beat up, this would be a very easy case to make.
Well sure, if you change the scenario and introduce new facts and events then you could pretty easily make that case. But the post I was responding to said:

Quote:
If Deb killed El Sapo, why would she need try to cover it up? He gave her a bad enough beating, he's a known hitman, and she has friends in the local PD. She could probably pin the murder of the guy she was with from episode 1 on El Sapo too.
To me, this was implying that she could simply point to the beating she took inside the storage unit and claim that her shooting him while he was in his car was self-defense. I was pointing out that because these two events took place at different locations, that you couldn't use the beating in the storage unit as a justification for self-defense out on the street when El Sapo is back in his car.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:28 PM   #44
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The way El Sapo was killed cannot be passed off as self-defense for the beating Deb took. How is she going to be able to explain that he beat her up and then got back in his car and then she shot him? That's not self defense.
In the real world, you're probably correct, but in Dexter Universe I can see the cops looking out for her, and come up with some BS justification.. It's moot anyways. She has no idea what really happened IMO.

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Since Deb did not shoot El Sapo, what is the deal with her remembering standing over the body? And her blood on the outside of the car? I can think of two possibilities. One is that she did manage to drag herself out of the storage unit to her car, and then she heard the gunshots and went to look (probably leaned into the car looking for the jewelry, got her blood on it). Second, someone (possibly Elway? no evidence for that, but he just seems creepy) tried to frame Deb, probably drugged her, and somehow took her along to scene, shot El Sapo, planted Deb's blood, and then left her there in a fog. A longshot third possibility I just thought of -- Hannah's plotline was never really resolved. Could she be back and gunning for Deb?
I somehow got the feeling the Deb/El Sapo drama was told in such a way create more drama with the whole Dex/Vogel dynamic. Deb confesses or is accused of killing El Sapo, and even more far fetched idea (may but probably wont happen) is the gun used to kill El Sapo may be the same gun that killed LaGuerta (why they didn't trash it would be beyond me). Vogel presses Dexter into the idea Deb fits the code and he must kill her.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:22 PM   #45
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Over the last couple of episodes, they have spent a great deal of time drilling it into our heads that Deb is pretty messed up. I think it's entirely plausible that she killed El Sapo and is foggy about what happened. She's so psychologically traumatized at this point (and had just received some physical trauma as well). It's not far fetched that her psyche would be blocking some of what happened to protect her.

Is it possible that someone else shot El Sapo and Deb just stumbled upon the crime scene? Sure. I don't think that's what happened though. The only person we've been introduced to who would have any potential motive to do that would be her boss. If he did it, Deb would figure it out awfully quickly when he returned the jewelry to his client. And, if he kept the jewelry for himself, he'd be a pretty lousy private detective and we'd probably have already seen some shady behavior from him prior to this point. I mean, the guy was nervous about breaking into a crime scene. That doesn't sound like someone who is going to murder someone and steal jewelry at the potential cost of his business and freedom.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:32 PM   #46
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Over the last couple of episodes, they have spent a great deal of time drilling it into our heads that Deb is pretty messed up. I think it's entirely plausible that she killed El Sapo and is foggy about what happened. She's so psychologically traumatized at this point (and had just received some physical trauma as well). It's not far fetched that her psyche would be blocking some of what happened to protect her.

Is it possible that someone else shot El Sapo and Deb just stumbled upon the crime scene? Sure. I don't think that's what happened though. The only person we've been introduced to who would have any potential motive to do that would be her boss. If he did it, Deb would figure it out awfully quickly when he returned the jewelry to his client. And, if he kept the jewelry for himself, he'd be a pretty lousy private detective and we'd probably have already seen some shady behavior from him prior to this point. I mean, the guy was nervous about breaking into a crime scene. That doesn't sound like someone who is going to murder someone and steal jewelry at the potential cost of his business and freedom.
I totally agree with you and you put it much better than I would. To further you point about her boss....that looked to be a VERY high end "security" firm and a couple of hundred grand (do I even remember that number right) in jewelry just wouldn't be worth the risk.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:36 PM   #47
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I totally agree with you and you put it much better than I would. To further you point about her boss....that looked to be a VERY high end "security" firm and a couple of hundred grand (do I even remember that number right) in jewelry just wouldn't be worth the risk.
I think the jewels were worth half a million, and the firm stood to get a 20% finder's fee if they recovered them. So it's worth $100 grand to the firm, and he'd undoubtedly have to share some of that with Deb since she did most of the work to locate the jewels.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:45 PM   #48
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Let's step back for a minute. My question is does Deb's boss remain just a bit part or does he become the focus of something bigger?

Right now seems like a bit part. However, the season is young.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:55 PM   #49
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We still need to be told how Deb got out of the storage unit and if she get out quick enough to kill El Sapo there and moved the body. It's unlikely but plausible in the Dexterverse.

Then there's the jewels.. She doesn't appear to have them, and they were missing from the El Sapo's car.

I'm open to all possibilities until we're told that. Maybe it's because I don't think Deb is a cold blooded killer, that I find unlikely she did it. Also there's enough vagueness to what we've been told to make me think it's a misdirection. So far, the only other player involved in the jewel drama is her boss which makes him suspect #1 IMO. Waiting for more facts.

It could be as simple as El Sapo took the jewels back to his mob boss, and that guy (whoever he is) killed El Sapo instead of paying him... The blood on the scene could be from his fight earlier with Deb.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:09 PM   #50
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It could be as simple as El Sapo took the jewels back to his mob boss, and that guy (whoever he is) killed El Sapo instead of paying him... The blood on the scene could be from his fight earlier with Deb.
The blood was on a shard of glass, so presumably it would have to have gotten there when or after the glass was broken. She did something to cut herself on it, but there are any number of somethings that could have been.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:16 PM   #51
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The blood was on a shard of glass, so presumably it would have to have gotten there when or after the glass was broken. She did something to cut herself on it, but there are any number of somethings that could have been.
We know that El Sapo had blood on his face when he got into his car. He wiped it off. I think we were to assume it was his own blood, since we saw the cut on his face. But it's possible there was also some Deb blood mixed in and that El Sapo accidentally got some of it on the window either before he was shot or during the attack.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:33 PM   #52
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We know that El Sapo had blood on his face when he got into his car. He wiped it off. I think we were to assume it was his own blood, since we saw the cut on his face. But it's possible there was also some Deb blood mixed in and that El Sapo accidentally got some of it on the window either before he was shot or during the attack.
None of El Sapo's face blood was Deb's. That is the first thing I checked on my rewatch of that scene. You can see that his face has no blood on it when he closes to door to the storage unit. It must have only started bleeding as he walked away (or he wiped it off just before he closed the door).

Or I suppose the director could have screwed up. But in the car, El Sapo clearly had a horizontal cut on his face and the blood appeared to be dripping down from that.

El Sapo could have had some of Deb's blood on his hands or arms that he smeared on the window when he opened the car door. Just because Deb's blood was on the glass does not mean that she had to have cut herself on the glass after the window was broken. It could have been smeared on the window before it was broken. Not that I think that is necessarily what happened, but it cannot be ruled out from what we have seen.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:40 PM   #53
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I'd say a reasonable explanation is that Deb cut herself while reaching in the car for the jewels after shooting El Sapo.

Of course that could have easily been proven/smashed if she took 2 seconds to look at her arms.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:23 PM   #54
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In addition to what Deb did and did not say to Dexter, don't forget she had a freak-out while talking to Quinn in the interrogation room, and Dex had to come save her. She was having a flashback showing that she shot El Sapo.

Of course she could be imagining that, too, she's pretty messed up as we've all said. However, that's still something to consider.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:33 PM   #55
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In addition to what Deb did and did not say to Dexter, don't forget she had a freak-out while talking to Quinn in the interrogation room, and Dex had to come save her. She was having a flashback showing that she shot El Sapo.

Of course she could be imagining that, too, she's pretty messed up as we've all said. However, that's still something to consider.
Good point. The weird thing about that flashback is it kind of looked like someone shot El Sapo from the driver side window, and then Deb imagined herself putting a couple shots through the windshield. Almost like there were two shooters. But that does not make sense unless the guns were the same caliber. And the ballistics report should still be able to distinguish the bullets.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:00 PM   #56
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Loving the season so far... I think the way they've written Deb's storyline since she found out has been excellent. Last season was about her coming learning about, then struggling with, her brother being a serial killer. That one moment in the church turned her from an uncompromising justice hound to committing a million crimes to cover Dexter's lies. That's enough to deal with, but then her deciding to kill Laguerta in a moment of panic sealed the deal.

That's not hiding evidence and breaking the law to protect someone you love as you try to comprehend their secret- that's a cold blooded murder of a POLICE CAPTAIN, who she's known for years. Who didn't deserve to die. The way they're portraying her decent this year is great. I think Jennifer Carpenter is doing an excellent job - Deb is just destroyed and you can see it on her face and hear it in her voice. Her acting skills have been "questionable" in a lot of seasons but she's killing it right now.

Great storyline to end the show. I'm glad they didn't end the series with her finding out in the last episode or two. Exploring it has given the show some new life. I also like the fact taht the main baddie this year is tied to a woman who couldn't be more tied to Dexter's history if she tried. Good stuff there.

Of course it's not all awesome... Another year, another boring Quinn subplot. At least his subplots usually involve overly hot co-conspirators because without that his entire role in the show would be a total waste

Part of me wants the series to end with Dexter getting away with everything, but after 8 seasons I think it would be so much more interesting if everything he's been avoiding the whole time just comes crashing through.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:25 PM   #57
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My working theory is that Vogel cultivated multiple serial killers, not just Dexter (she's already explicitly stated this) and that she's now having them off each other in a chain. She tasks B to kill A, and then C to kill B, and then D to kill C, etc. The asphyxiated victim was a killer, as was the hunter. At some point in the season, Dexter will have one of her serial killers going after him.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:42 PM   #58
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My working theory is that Vogel cultivated multiple serial killers, not just Dexter (she's already explicitly stated this) and that she's now having them off each other in a chain. She tasks B to kill A, and then C to kill B, and then D to kill C, etc. The asphyxiated victim was a killer, as was the hunter. At some point in the season, Dexter will have one of her serial killers going after him.
Interesting theory. What is her motive?
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:55 PM   #59
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Interesting theory. What is her motive?
she's a serial killer?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:00 PM   #60
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Here is my theory on how the series ends:

Spoiler:
David Fisher wakes up from a dream in which he is a serial killer named Dexter. He turns over to find Suzanne Pleshette in his bed, and she kills him

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