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Old 07-06-2013, 02:04 PM   #301
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Oh, you must mean like Cox, in Las Vegas, who just forced us to start using tuning adapters on their already 1GHz network, while still continuing to provide analog service. Talk about idiotic...
We still have about 35 channels that are analog only. No simulcast and no HD equivelents. Right now I use an Elite for most stuff, but still have to use a regular Premiere for all the analog channels. We've been using TAs for about 3 years now. The only thing I can figure is that they started using SDV to increase bandwidth for OnDemmand, because we have no got any new channels in at least 7 years.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:35 PM   #302
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We still have about 35 channels that are analog only. No simulcast and no HD equivelents. Right now I use an Elite for most stuff, but still have to use a regular Premiere for all the analog channels. We've been using TAs for about 3 years now. The only thing I can figure is that they started using SDV to increase bandwidth for OnDemmand, because we have no got any new channels in at least 7 years.
The issue for these MSOs in abandoning analog is forcing their customers to add DTAs to multiple TVs in their households. I'm sure they would experience increased churn from unhappy customers so its easier for them to maintain the analog footprint at this point...
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:30 PM   #303
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.....only thing I can figure is that they started using SDV to increase bandwidth for OnDemmand, because we have no got any new channels in at least 7 years.
Ouch - that really sucks.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:57 PM   #304
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There is a cable service here in PA, Service Electric, that still has about 70 analogs. They compress the hell out of their digital and HD channels, but at least they simulcast those channels.

Up until recently the only HD premium channels they had were HBO and Showtime. Only in the last month or so they added a couple more HBO and Showtime HD channels. They might have ditched a few analogs recently to make room for them.

We're very lucky to have a rare 3 choices here. Service Electric, RCN and Fios. SE is the only analog hold-out. They picked up a lot of RCN customers when RCN went all-digital a few years ago and forced TA's. They've been holding off on the analog crush as long as possible.

Simulcasting 35 SD channels wouldn't take up that much space. And there's almost no excuse if they're using SDV too. That's really kind of strange.

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Old 07-06-2013, 04:41 PM   #305
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IMHO, changing the granularity of the padding options would be a poor use of TiVos limited resources since:

a. It is of no use to most of their customers

b. I don't believe it would be as easy as some people think.

c. It would constitute an unwarranted difference in whatever platform on which it is implemented and prior platforms.

I would much rather they fix existing problems and make real enhancements.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:16 PM   #306
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I would much rather they fix existing problems and make real enhancements.
Some of us consider better padding options an enhancement.

The current padding option is pretty poor. I would much rather have Media Center's padding options where you can pad when available rather than all or nothing.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:45 PM   #307
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Some of us consider better padding options an enhancement.
Again IMHO, there aren't enough of you for TiVo to make this a priority.

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The current padding option is pretty poor. I would much rather have Media Center's padding options where you can pad when available rather than all or nothing.
Might be nice but not really of high value. If something needs to be padded in order not to miss part of it, missing it sometimes and not missing it others is worse than the alternative.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:53 PM   #308
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One enhancement to padding I'd like to see is the ability to pad two shows back to back on the same channel without it needing two tuners. Seems like it would be simple enough for them to share the data between the two shows.

Another would be an automatic 1 minute padd on both ends if it doesn't cause a conflict. An extra 2 minutes per show isn't going to hurt anyone's space these days and this would eliminate the frustration of missing that last line or final bit.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:03 PM   #309
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[rant]
Or maybe the broadcasters can get their act together, stop jerking us around, and just start things in proper time slots. The current practice is childish. Yeah, I understand why they do it, but I still think it is a childish practice.
[/rant]
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:21 PM   #310
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One enhancement to padding I'd like to see is the ability to pad two shows back to back on the same channel without it needing two tuners. Seems like it would be simple enough for them to share the data between the two shows.

Another would be an automatic 1 minute padd on both ends if it doesn't cause a conflict. An extra 2 minutes per show isn't going to hurt anyone's space these days and this would eliminate the frustration of missing that last line or final bit.
Both simple to describe. Not so simple to implement.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:34 PM   #311
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Another would be an automatic 1 minute padd on both ends if it doesn't cause a conflict.
Windows Media Center has an option for that, just saying.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:25 PM   #312
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There is a cable service here in PA, Service Electric, that still has about 70 analogs. They compress the hell out of their digital and HD channels, but at least they simulcast those channels.

Up until recently the only HD premium channels they had were HBO and Showtime. Only in the last month or so they added a couple more HBO and Showtime HD channels. They might have ditched a few analogs recently to make room for them.

We're very lucky to have a rare 3 choices here. Service Electric, RCN and Fios. SE is the only analog hold-out. They picked up a lot of RCN customers when RCN went all-digital a few years ago and forced TA's. They've been holding off on the analog crush as long as possible.

Simulcasting 35 SD channels wouldn't take up that much space. And there's almost no excuse if they're using SDV too. That's really kind of strange.
Each analog SD channel uses as much space as 10 or more SD digital or two HD channels. And that is for a system that doesn't compress alot. When compressing more, like Comcast does is my area, then one analog SD channel takes as much space as three HD channels.

Removing those 35 analog channels would free up alot of space. Enough to add 70 to 105 HD channels. Each analog channel wastes alot of bandwidth.
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:25 PM   #313
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Again IMHO, there aren't enough of you for TiVo to make this a priority.

Might be nice but not really of high value. If something needs to be padded in order not to miss part of it, missing it sometimes and not missing it others is worse than the alternative.
Yet it is more reasons why I don't recommend the product to anyone anymore.

It is even a joke on Tosh.0 where he references and now for the part TiVo users never see.
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:42 PM   #314
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I'm interested. With 6 Tuners available I'd be more likely to buy a Mini. I need at least four tuners just for me.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:04 AM   #315
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One thing I fail to understand the logic of, is nearly every time somebody comes up with something they would like to see in a new model of TiVo, somebody says how easy it is to state, but how hard it would be to implement.

WHY, should it have to be EASY???

We pay premium prices, for what are supposed to be premium products. Yet, some people seem to think new, or improved, functionality, should only be taken seriously, if it's easy to implement.

With that mindset, why even bother to release new products, other than to call them "new"? The ONLY reason to do that is to make money, by calling it new, designating what came before it "old", and taking money from the masses of people who blindly pay money for anything that is the newest, whether or not is actually worth bothering with, or is anything more than a recycled, re-badged, kludge of the same old, same old, called "new"... It's counterintuitive, but it's a market, all on its own. It's truly sad, that consumers make a market for this type of thing.

There are so many "features" that have existed in nearly every TiVo, that could be improved upon, and haven't been, through each generation.

If I want to watch Netflix, Hulu Plus, play games, and/or interact with social media, I already have multiple existing products that do these things, do them well, and about the only thing none of these products are is a DVR!

So, my wish would be for TiVo to leave these extras to the products that already exist, do them well, and regularly update the features, and fix problems, in a timely fashion, and, instead, FOCUS on producing the very best DVR money can buy, and use the resources of the product to enhance a robust DVR.

You can't even buy many devices anymore, which connect to a TV, that don't have all this extra stuff already in them.

Just think of what TiVo could produce, if they focused on the part they do best: Providing an alternative to a cable company provided DVR.

Sometimes I think some people actually want TiVo's core DVR functionality to stay the same, and not to actually evolve into a better product. What next, Angry Birds on TiVo? Why not, it fits the pattern of TiVo's stale DVR innovation, and the quest for the "One Box"... Like I said, it's sad.

If the highest authority told TiVo engineers to strip out all the extras, that every other device attached to, or built-into, a TV already provides, and prohibited them from anything more than engineering advances, improvements, innovations, and other built-in functionality, that relate to a DVR and improving the DVR experience, interaction with the other devices in a home, just think of what kind of product we could have from TiVo...

I think some of this "That wouldn't be easy to implement, so it's unlikely" talk, is more a reflection/projection of a "Just leave everything like it is and bung-in as many tuners as you possibly can, and do it quickly, because I want something new" mentality.

Again, why should everything people suggest be in a new generation TiVo, or guess may be in one, have to be easy?

IMHO, if everything they add, or change, comes easy, it then shouldn't be worth a price, other than one that reflects how easy it was to make and slap a new model/generation designation onto it.

Edit/Add: The biggest issue I have with consumer electronics manufacturers releasing "new" products, just for the sake of doing so, is that it gives them an easy excuse to stop providing bug-fixes, support, and improvements to existing products, which get premature end-of-life designations, just because of the released "newer" models. This often leaves those with "old" models, designated end-of-life, while there's no real reason those products can't be improved, fixed, or supported. The only indication I see of TiVo making an exception, is that there are reports of an 11.0m software update for the S3 platform (which may only be to resolve the TiVo Desktop cookie issue). There's a thread about this spotted-in-the-wild update, for those who want to check into it, or discuss it.

Last edited by nooneuknow : 07-07-2013 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:05 AM   #316
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One thing I fail to understand the logic of, is nearly every time somebody comes up with something they would like to see in a new model of TiVo, somebody says how easy it is to state, but how hard it would be to implement.

WHY, should it have to be EASY???

We pay premium prices, for what are supposed to be premium products. Yet, some people seem to think new, or improved, functionality, should only be taken seriously, if it's easy to implement.

With that mindset, why even bother to release new products, other than to call them "new"? The ONLY reason to do that is to make money, by calling it new, designating what came before it "old", and taking money from the masses of people who blindly pay money for anything that is the newest, whether or not is actually worth bothering with, or is anything more than a recycled, re-badged, kludge of the same old, same old, called "new"... It's counterintuitive, but it's a market, all on its own. It's truly sad, that consumers make a market for this type of thing.

There are so many "features" that have existed in nearly every TiVo, that could be improved upon, and haven't been, through each generation.

If I want to watch Netflix, Hulu Plus, play games, and/or interact with social media, I already have multiple existing products that do these things, do them well, and about the only thing none of these products are is a DVR!

So, my wish would be for TiVo to leave these extras to the products that already exist, do them well, and regularly update the features, and fix problems, in a timely fashion, and, instead, FOCUS on producing the very best DVR money can buy, and use the resources of the product to enhance a robust DVR.

You can't even buy many devices anymore, which connect to a TV, that don't have all this extra stuff already in them.

Just think of what TiVo could produce, if they focused on the part they do best: Providing an alternative to a cable company provided DVR.

Sometimes I think some people actually want TiVo's core DVR functionality to stay the same, and not to actually evolve into a better product. What next, Angry Birds on TiVo? Why not, it fits the pattern of TiVo's stale DVR innovation, and the quest for the "One Box"... Like I said, it's sad.

If the highest authority told TiVo engineers to strip out all the extras, that every other device attached to, or built-into, a TV already provides, and prohibited them from anything more than engineering advances, improvements, innovations, and other built-in functionality, that relate to a DVR and improving the DVR experience, interaction with the other devices in a home, just think of what kind of product we could have from TiVo...

I think some of this "That wouldn't be easy to implement, so it's unlikely" talk, is more a reflection/projection of a "Just leave everything like it is and bung-in as many tuners as you possibly can, and do it quickly, because I want something new" mentality.

Again, why should everything people suggest be in a new generation TiVo, or guess may be in one, have to be easy?

IMHO, if everything they add, or change, comes easy, it then shouldn't be worth a price, other than one that reflects how easy it was to make and slap a new model/generation designation onto it.

Edit/Add: The biggest issue I have with consumer electronics manufacturers releasing "new" products, just for the sake of doing so, is that it gives them an easy excuse to stop providing bug-fixes, support, and improvements to existing products, which get premature end-of-life designations, just because of the released "newer" models. This often leaves those with "old" models, designated end-of-life, while there's no real reason those products can't be improved, fixed, or supported. The only indication I see of TiVo making an exception, is that there are reports of an 11.0m software update for the S3 platform (which may only be to resolve the TiVo Desktop cookie issue). There's a thread about this spotted-in-the-wild update, for those who want to check into it, or discuss it.
In the most recent instance, the poster explicitly said it should be easy. Plus given the level of competence exhibited by the current TiVo s/w development team, I really don't want them taking on something difficult until they fix the existing problems and develop a much more robust testing regime.

TiVo is a business. How do you suggest they justify to their stockholders allocating the resources necessary to implement some of these features, particularly on platforms which are generating little if any revenue?
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:23 AM   #317
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In the most recent instance, the poster explicitly said it should be easy. Plus given the level of competence exhibited by the current TiVo s/w development team, I really don't want them taking on something difficult until they fix the existing problems and develop a much more robust testing regime.

TiVo is a business. How do you suggest they justify to their stockholders allocating the resources necessary to implement some of these features, particularly on platforms which are generating little if any revenue?
In hindsight, I see I went off on a full-scale, long-winded rant, which I had been trying not to do, by repeatedly not posting anything in this thread, even though I typed up quite a few posts, which I chose not to submit.

However, what are you saying? We should just accept that TiVo is incompetent, in nearly all aspects of their business, other than duping the customer, and we should alter our expectations accordingly? We should not ask them to do anything, except fix existing products, accept that the "new" products, are just "fixed old products" with new model/platform designations?

I'm not trying to be condescending towards you. I do feel TiVo deserves some condescension directed at them, however.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:59 AM   #318
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Oh, you must mean like Cox, in Las Vegas, who just forced us to start using tuning adapters on their already 1GHz network, while still continuing to provide analog service. Talk about idiotic...
Yup, that's pretty idiotic.

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The issue for these MSOs in abandoning analog is forcing their customers to add DTAs to multiple TVs in their households. I'm sure they would experience increased churn from unhappy customers so its easier for them to maintain the analog footprint at this point...
Comcast did it. Churn to where? I say that ironically, as I live in one of the very, very few places where you could have switched to the other cable company to get analog when Comcast finally killed it. In most places, the cable provider is the only provider to have analog support.

Analog has no place on a modern cable network. Nor does MPEG-2 HD, but that's another story entirely. A network that was running even just an 860mhz plant with all MPEG-4 HD's and no analog would have a boatload of bandwidth. These providers have artificial bandwidth crunches by their unwillingness to get rid of technology that's been dead for 5-10 years.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:52 AM   #319
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However, what are you saying? We should just accept that TiVo is incompetent, in nearly all aspects of their business, other than duping the customer, and we should alter our expectations accordingly? We should not ask them to do anything, except fix existing products, accept that the "new" products, are just "fixed old products" with new model/platform designations?
I'm not saying that at all. Even if TiVo's s/w design and and development process weren't flawed, they do not have unlimited resources AND most of the enhancements being requested benefit a small minority of their customer base, both existing and potential and/or are far more difficult to implement than a lot of people seem to think, particularly if you consider all of the ramifications of making that "simple" change.

How exactly is TiVo "duping" anyone? All prior models of TiVos still work properly and still get guide data updates and they are reportedly fixing the expired cookie problem on all models of TiVo that are affected, i.e. Series 2 and later.

I'm not trying to defend TiVo here, but the main problem is the flawed releases for the Series 4, not the lack of enhancements to the Series 3.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:08 PM   #320
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Bigg posted while I was composing but he did touch on one Series 3 issue that I hope TiVo is looking at - MPEG4 support. I have no idea if it is even possible.

One slight modification to my previous post - the S2DT does not work "properly" in an all digital setting.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:11 PM   #321
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Bigg posted while I was composing but he did touch on one Series 3 issue that I hope TiVo is looking at - MPEG4 support. I have no idea if it is even possible.

One slight modification to my previous post - the S2DT does not work "properly" in an all digital setting.

The Series 3 does support MPEG4/H.264, it just needs a software update to support it. I think it was in Australia where several years ago their Series 3 boxes were updated to support MPEG4/H.264.

But then the S3 is a old product now. I would think they would want thier customers to purchase a Series 4 or Series 5 TiVo. So I don't see much incentive for them to put out an update so the S3 boxes work with H.264.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #322
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The Series 3 does support MPEG4/H.264, it just needs a software update to support it. I think it was in Australia where several years ago their Series 3 boxes were updated to support MPEG4/H.264.

But then the S3 is a old product now. I would think they would want thier customers to purchase a Series 4 or Series 5 TiVo. So I don't see much incentive for them to put out an update so the S3 boxes work with H.264.
Unfortunately true. They purposely didn't push the update out to force people to buy newer hardware...
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:05 PM   #323
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The S3 had a lifespan. H.264 video never came to fruition in the US while in that lifespan. In fact H.264 didn't really hit for cable until about a year ago, which was well into the lifespan of the S4 box and long after they had EOLed the S3. And while they may technically have the software/hardware to support H.264 on the S3 platform they can't just release it untested. And doing a beta test and potential engineering on a product that was EOLed years ago is not a smart business decision. Had H.264 hit while the S3 was still the primary product they would have released it for sure, but at this point it doesn't make sense.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:09 PM   #324
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The S3 had a lifespan. H.264 video never came to fruition in the US while in that lifespan. In fact H.264 didn't really hit for cable until about a year ago, which was well into the lifespan of the S4 box and long after they had EOLed the S3. And while they may technically have the software/hardware to support H.264 on the S3 platform they can't just release it untested. And doing a beta test and potential engineering on a product that was EOLed years ago is not a smart business decision. Had H.264 hit while the S3 was still the primary product they would have released it for sure, but at this point it doesn't make sense.
I guess I could see TiVo just being slow and incompetent at updating software, not a plan to force upgrades, given how slow and incompetent they have been with a lot of other software updates, BUT in the case of most companies, I would say this would be a clear case of forcing upgrades.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:20 PM   #325
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I guess I could see TiVo just being slow and incompetent at updating software, not a plan to force upgrades, given how slow and incompetent they have been with a lot of other software updates, BUT in the case of most companies, I would say this would be a clear case of forcing upgrades.
how long should a company support a product that is no longer sold or produced?
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:35 PM   #326
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I guess I could see TiVo just being slow and incompetent at updating software, not a plan to force upgrades, given how slow and incompetent they have been with a lot of other software updates, BUT in the case of most companies, I would say this would be a clear case of forcing upgrades.
It's not any of those things. When the S3 was actively being sold in the US there were no cable companies who had H.264 channels. So it was impossible for them to test an upgrade that included H.264 support. By the time cable companies started to deploy H.264 channels the S3 had not actively been sold for almost 2 years, and even then the number of users effected was a tiny fraction of their user base. They took the time and resources to deploy the feature to their current product line (i.e. the Premiere) but it's perfectly understandable that they didn't go back and release it for a product that hadn't actually been sold for 2 years. Doing so would have required them to dedicate development resources to a product that was no longer generating revenue for them. Plus if it had the added benefit of persuading a few users to upgrade then all the better. But it's not really a "forced upgrade" since even now only a few cable operators even use H.264, and most of them only use it for a hand full of specialty channels.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:11 PM   #327
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WeaKnees Cuts Prices On Current Gen Boxes

Prices guaranteed through mid-August. Could this signal a possible late summer release of the Series 5 boxes?

http://www.wkblog.com/tivo/2013/07/t...all-40-50-off/
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:19 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
how long should a company support a product that is no longer sold or produced?
When we are talking about software it should be a very long time even more so with TiVo as they continue to collect monthly fees.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:27 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
When we are talking about software it should be a very long time even more so with TiVo as they continue to collect monthly fees.
Support is one thing... upgrades are another.

I'm with Dan on this one... H.264 is not a bug fix. TiVo would be better off discounting an upgrade to a Series 4 for the small number of users impacted versus the expense of upgrading the Series 3 to support.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:59 PM   #330
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If the hardware can handle the format, I think they should provide a patch for the S3 models.

I don't see this as an upgrade, but I do see this as a minimal necessary maintenance release. It would also go a long way to building on brand loyalty that has been eroded over the last couple of years.

If cable companies move aggressively to H.264 standard this will effectively brick the S3 models... Ruining not only current use, but also resale.

Jump on it and the customers will either never know about it and or greatly appreciate the support. Don't do it and deal with significant negative publicity and fallout.
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