TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-06-2013, 08:05 PM   #1
sbiller
Registered User
 
sbiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,859
R.I.P. Boxee: 3 lessons to learn from Boxee’s demise

http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/05/3-...oxee-shutdown/

Pretty fair analysis looking at some of the mistakes made by Boxee. TiVo appears to be avoiding many of them which may be the reason they are still around after so many years...
sbiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 07:21 AM   #2
mr.unnatural
Registered User
 
mr.unnatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,570
One of Boxee's biggest mistakes was introducing a product in a market that was already flooded with media players at a price that wasn't competitive with the other devices. I didn't see anything about the Boxee Box at $199 that would convince me it was a better product than a Roku or a WDTV player that were available for less than half the cost. They came out of the gate with two strikes against them. It was clearly developed by enthusiasts that knew nothing about marketing and retail sales.
mr.unnatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:07 AM   #3
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 13,914
I thought the Boxee Box complimented the ROku. My Boxee Boxes could not replace my Rokus and my Rokus could not replace my Boxee Boxes.
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x4
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:33 AM   #4
MikeMar
Go Pats
 
MikeMar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Boston Suburb, MA
Posts: 38,020
Boxee Box at $199 was and is still one of my best electronics buys

Use it almost every day, and it works GREAT for years and hopefully a few more years to come.

I wish they just updated it and kept it not like the DVR thing they did
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MikeMar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 10:14 AM   #5
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller View Post
http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/05/3-...oxee-shutdown/

Pretty fair analysis looking at some of the mistakes made by Boxee. TiVo appears to be avoiding many of them which may be the reason they are still around after so many years...
The only reason TiVo is still around is because of Patent Trolling. No other reason.

TiVo has never made a dime it didn't sue someone out of.

They'd have gone under 6 years ago if it wasn't for the Courts.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:05 AM   #6
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 13,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
The only reason TiVo is still around is because of Patent Trolling. No other reason.

TiVo has never made a dime it didn't sue someone out of.

They'd have gone under 6 years ago if it wasn't for the Courts.
Patent trolling? Isn't a patent troll a company that doesn't have a product that just sues for the patents they have? TiVo sells a product that uses their patents. Why should someone be able to use patents they have for free? It doesn't work that way with other companies, why should it be different for TiVo?
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x4
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:11 AM   #7
Davisadm
TiVo is Back!!!!!!!!
 
Davisadm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
The only reason TiVo is still around is because of Patent Trolling. No other reason.

TiVo has never made a dime it didn't sue someone out of.

They'd have gone under 6 years ago if it wasn't for the Courts.
TiVo also would not be out of business if other companies didn't try to infringe on and steal their patented technologies, but paid licensing fees which they should legally be doing.
Davisadm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:14 AM   #8
stahta01
Simple Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana (USA)
Posts: 3,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Patent trolling? Isn't a patent troll a company that doesn't have a product that just sues for the patents they have? TiVo sells a product that uses their patents. Why should someone be able to use patents they have for free? It doesn't work that way with other companies, why should it be different for TiVo?
Please do NOT feed the real Troll.

Tim S.
__________________
Schlock Mercenary Maxim 41: "Do you have a backup?" means "I can't fix this" (4 October 2013)
stahta01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:43 AM   #9
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Patent trolling? Isn't a patent troll a company that doesn't have a product that just sues for the patents they have? TiVo sells a product that uses their patents. Why should someone be able to use patents they have for free? It doesn't work that way with other companies, why should it be different for TiVo?
Replay had a patent that belongs to DirecTV now. Cisco has a patent, MOTO has a patent, Microsoft has a patent, Dish worked around the patent and has one of their own, and the EPO just revoked TiVo's patent so Liberty is free to do whatever they want as far as patents are concerned.

I don't see any of these other companies suing anyone over their DVR patents.

TiVo? Looks like patent trolling to me.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:45 AM   #10
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisadm View Post
TiVo also would not be out of business if other companies didn't try to infringe on and steal their patented technologies, but paid licensing fees which they should legally be doing.
No one has EVER been found to be "infringing their patented technologies" FACT!
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 01:09 PM   #11
SnakeEyes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,243
I see someone is trolling about patent trolling.
SnakeEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 01:27 PM   #12
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeEyes View Post
I see someone is trolling about patent trolling.
Yes, anyone who points out the warts of this Company or product is a troll...

I get it, already!!!
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 01:46 PM   #13
Dan203
Super Moderator
 
Dan203's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 25,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
Dish worked around the patent and has one of their own.
I don't know about the rest of these companies but Dish blatantly ripped them off. Back in the early days Dish came to TiVo and had them develop a prototype for a box that would work on Dish's network. TiVo gave them a prototype and after some time Dish came back and said never mind we've developed our own, which just happened to have the same basic design as the one TiVo gave them. It was straight out theft. The other companies may have developed their own products which just happened to run up against TiVo patents, but Dish flat out stole their technology and banked on TiVo going out of business before they ever had to account for it. And they almost did a few times.

Also I'm pretty sure there was at least one quarter, maybe two, where TiVo turned a profit. It may have been an accounting trick, but I'm pretty sure there were a couple times when they were in the black.
__________________
Dan Haddix
Super Moderator
Developer for VideoReDo
Dan203 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 02:35 PM   #14
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
I don't know about the rest of these companies but Dish blatantly ripped them off. Back in the early days Dish came to TiVo and had them develop a prototype for a box that would work on Dish's network. TiVo gave them a prototype and after some time Dish came back and said never mind we've developed our own, which just happened to have the same basic design as the one TiVo gave them. It was straight out theft. The other companies may have developed their own products which just happened to run up against TiVo patents, but Dish flat out stole their technology and banked on TiVo going out of business before they ever had to account for it. And they almost did a few times.

Also I'm pretty sure there was at least one quarter, maybe two, where TiVo turned a profit. It may have been an accounting trick, but I'm pretty sure there were a couple times when they were in the black.
Straight out theft?

Sorry, no...

It took 2 courts over 4 years to ponder that very question and they never got the chance to answer it due to the parties "settling".

As a matter of fact I believe that TiVo was going to LOSE to Dish on appeal and that was the very reason they took the lowball settlement they were offered.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 02:47 PM   #15
Dan203
Super Moderator
 
Dan203's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 25,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
Straight out theft?

Sorry, no...

It took 2 courts over 4 years to ponder that very question and they never got the chance to answer it due to the parties "settling".

As a matter of fact I believe that TiVo was going to LOSE to Dish on appeal and that was the very reason they took the lowball settlement they were offered.
Regardless of what the courts did or didn't say the anecdotal evidence that Dish stole TiVo's technology was overwhelming. Dish is as guilty as OJ Simpson on this one.
__________________
Dan Haddix
Super Moderator
Developer for VideoReDo
Dan203 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 03:31 PM   #16
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
Regardless of what the courts did or didn't say the anecdotal evidence that Dish stole TiVo's technology was overwhelming. Dish is as guilty as OJ Simpson on this one.
Unfortunately smarter people than us differ with your opinion.

But all kidding aside the only reason TiVo got any traction at all in that lawsuit is because they convinced a Judge that "parse" meant "analyse".

Remember, patents are granted to FURTHER technologies, not for the inventor to become a multi billionaire.

Also remember, TiVo didn't patent the DVR (they can't) they patented a process.

All Dish needed to do (and did) was show that they omitted a step in TiVo's process and was granted a patent of their own.

What everyone gets wrong is that DISH wasn't found guilty of infringement or "stealing" they were found guilty of not obeying an injunction. An injunction that wasn't written clearly according to the CAFC. An injunction that was stayed MULTIPLE times.

Big difference....
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 04:51 PM   #17
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
...
What everyone gets wrong is that DISH wasn't found guilty of infringement or "stealing" they were found guilty of not obeying an injunction. An injunction that wasn't written clearly according to the CAFC. An injunction that was stayed MULTIPLE times.

Big difference....
Very amusing, so you think Dish had won the day, looked things over and decided to send TiVo a big fat check just because they are nice guys?

If you really believe that I have a great investment for you - a really great bridge.

Dish settled because they decided it was their least cost option - which means they believed they were going to lose.
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 05:31 PM   #18
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
Very amusing, so you think Dish had won the day, looked things over and decided to send TiVo a big fat check just because they are nice guys?

If you really believe that I have a great investment for you - a really great bridge.

Dish settled because they decided it was their least cost option - which means they believed they were going to lose.
What I believe is irrelevant. The FACT is, Dish was never found guilty of infringement or "stealing". They settled because they were going to found guilty of ignoring an injunction and knew it was cheaper to pay the settlement than to have to shut their boxes down.

TiVo won the proverbial battle but Charlie won the war. He won EVERY SINGLE RULING after the jury award, and there was no reason to think that was going to change the the second time around.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 06:22 PM   #19
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
What I believe is irrelevant.
Exactly
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 06:47 PM   #20
Johncv
Registered User
 
Johncv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chula Vista, CA
Posts: 1,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller View Post
http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/05/3-...oxee-shutdown/

Pretty fair analysis looking at some of the mistakes made by Boxee. TiVo appears to be avoiding many of them which may be the reason they are still around after so many years...
Sam, if your still there, trying to get this discussion back on topic, Why would Samsung buy this Boxee thing, what are they going to even do with it? If Boxee can't sell a Boxee what make Samsung think they can sell a Boxee? Maybe I need more info on what a Boxee is use for.
__________________
Johncv

HDTiVo
27-inch iMac with i7 quad core processor
Johncv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 07:33 PM   #21
Rob Helmerichs
I am Groot!
 
Rob Helmerichs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 31,237
My understanding is that the Boxee hardware was only ever intended to be one platform for the Boxee software, much as the TiVo box is theoretically just a platform for the TiVo software. Presumably, Samsung will integrate Boxee features into their own devices.
__________________
“This is the moment of truth. Are you my friend, or are you some bloodsucking network vampire?”
“Why do I have to pick one or the other?”
Rob Helmerichs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:03 PM   #22
sbiller
Registered User
 
sbiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs View Post
My understanding is that the Boxee hardware was only ever intended to be one platform for the Boxee software, much as the TiVo box is theoretically just a platform for the TiVo software. Presumably, Samsung will integrate Boxee features into their own devices.
I see this primarily as a play to upgrade Samsung's software/services. Boxee has some talented software engineers that could improve the Samsung user experience.

That is my translation of this Samsung statement,

Quote:
“This will help us continue to improve the overall user experience across our connected devices.”

sbiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:06 PM   #23
magnus
Tivo User
 
magnus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,468
And what will happen with their existing boxes? Are they completely dead as far as development (bug fixes)? What happens to all the boxes that were for sale at Walmart?
magnus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #24
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
What I believe is irrelevant. The FACT is, Dish was never found guilty of infringement or "stealing". They settled because they were going to found guilty of ignoring an injunction and knew it was cheaper to pay the settlement than to have to shut their boxes down.

TiVo won the proverbial battle but Charlie won the war. He won EVERY SINGLE RULING after the jury award, and there was no reason to think that was going to change the the second time around.
Pure FICTION. i don't know what alternate universe you live in, but it is certainly different from the rest of us.

Dish was found guilty of infringing on TiVo's patents in a jury trial in 2006 and TiVo was awarded 74 million.
EVERY SINGLE RULING after the jury award went TiVo's way. The major one concerning the infringing was the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals which affirmed the software infringing, but said the hardware infringing needed to be discussed more if TiVo wanted to pursue it. Since the software infringing was enough to require licenses, TiVo never did.

Everything afterwards was Dish playing games; saying that very minor changes in their DVR software (going from 8 buffers to 10?) was sufficient to not require licenses, and if TiVo thought otherwise, they would have to sue again from the beginning. The trial judge said that was nonsense, and ruled (yet again) that Dish was infringing and awarded TiVo more money. Dish appealed and lost yet again.

The final en banc ruling in 2011 included the following:
Quote:
Pursuant to Rule 58 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and in accordance with the jury verdict delivered on April 13, 2006 and with the Court's contemporaneously filed orders, the Court thereby enters judgment lor Plaintiff against Defendants for infringement of U.S. Patent No. 6,233,389 (`"389 patent"), claims 1, 5, 21, 23, 32, 36, 52, 31 and 61 ("the Infringed Claims") by Defendants' following DVR receivers (collectively the "Infringing Products''): DP-501; DP-508; DP-510: DP-522; DP-625; DP-721; DP-921; and the DP-942.
The final ruling did say that some of the monetary judgement had to be vacated. Instead of $1.25/month for Dish's use of its modified software, the monetary penalty had to be $1.25/month for Dish's use of its original software, since the modified and original software had been ruled effectively the same. So a penalty got vacated, but an equal penalty got substituted.

Dish was found of infringing on TiVo's patents at every step of the path (though some infringements were reduced). Your claim otherwise is just totally ridiculous.
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:14 PM   #25
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 13,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus View Post
And what will happen with their existing boxes? Are they completely dead as far as development (bug fixes)? What happens to all the boxes that were for sale at Walmart?
They are still for sale.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Boxee-TV/21984297
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x4
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 09:08 PM   #26
disturbedfred
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Venice, Hurricane Central
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
The only reason TiVo is still around is because of Patent Trolling. No other reason.

TiVo has never made a dime it didn't sue someone out of.

They'd have gone under 6 years ago if it wasn't for the Courts.
And I'm sure 6 years ago you were screaming how TiVo was going out of business any day.
disturbedfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 12:53 AM   #27
SnakeEyes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
.
Fantastic summary. Let's see if its ignored
SnakeEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 01:46 AM   #28
Johncv
Registered User
 
Johncv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chula Vista, CA
Posts: 1,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus View Post
And what will happen with their existing boxes? Are they completely dead as far as development (bug fixes)? What happens to all the boxes that were for sale at Walmart?
There still for sale, but I would not buy one. Most likely the Boxee's will not receive any new support. I will bet that the cloud DVR will die before the end of the year.
__________________
Johncv

HDTiVo
27-inch iMac with i7 quad core processor
Johncv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 06:09 AM   #29
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
Pure FICTION. i don't know what alternate universe you live in, but it is certainly different from the rest of us.

Dish was found guilty of infringing on TiVo's patents in a jury trial in 2006 and TiVo was awarded 74 million.
EVERY SINGLE RULING after the jury award went TiVo's way. The major one concerning the infringing was the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals which affirmed the software infringing, but said the hardware infringing needed to be discussed more if TiVo wanted to pursue it. Since the software infringing was enough to require licenses, TiVo never did.

Everything afterwards was Dish playing games; saying that very minor changes in their DVR software (going from 8 buffers to 10?) was sufficient to not require licenses, and if TiVo thought otherwise, they would have to sue again from the beginning. The trial judge said that was nonsense, and ruled (yet again) that Dish was infringing and awarded TiVo more money. Dish appealed and lost yet again.

The final en banc ruling in 2011 included the following:

The final ruling did say that some of the monetary judgement had to be vacated. Instead of $1.25/month for Dish's use of its modified software, the monetary penalty had to be $1.25/month for Dish's use of its original software, since the modified and original software had been ruled effectively the same. So a penalty got vacated, but an equal penalty got substituted.

Dish was found of infringing on TiVo's patents at every step of the path (though some infringements were reduced). Your claim otherwise is just totally ridiculous.
The CAFC also sent the case back to EDTX for another trial. A trial that never happened because of the settlement. Atrial that DISH may very well would have won.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 06:11 AM   #30
Richard Cranium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeEyes View Post
Fantastic summary. Let's see if its ignored
Whats ignored is my original point that this company would have gone under 6 years ago if it wasn't for patent trolling.

They've never made a dime they didn't sue someone out of.

Let's see what happens now that the lawsuits are over.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:26 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |