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Old 07-02-2013, 03:09 PM   #31
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My bet is still:
Laura=Bio Mom
Vogel=Step Mom
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:32 PM   #32
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My bet is still:
Laura=Bio Mom
Vogel=Step Mom
I think Dexter would recognize his step mom. Evelyn Vogel is obviously someone Harry confided in, and maybe helped Harry guide Dexter and designed the code so she might feel some sort of parental connection/responsibility to Dexter.
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:10 PM   #33
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Dexter has changed so much since the early seasons--he really seemed like a sociopath then. He was very closed down, he didn't have sex at all, he was a loner. Now he sleeps around, seems good with the kid except for taking him to crime scenes, and is totally out of control. I liked the original Dexter better.
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:49 PM   #34
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I had a thought earlier today. Perhaps the Captain, Vogel, and Harry were part of a secret plan hatched at Miami Metro to create such a killer to take care of the "garbage" that the MMPD could not do, legally? Just like The Borne movies. A classified program to mold and shape a child to "take out the trash". The were just waiting for an abandoned, orphaned child to show up somewhere, place him in the trailer with his "mother" to hatch the memories... and shape and mold his every move. Vogel didn't have to be his step-mother, but someone who was very close to the plot who Dexter may have never seen. The Ice Truck Killer may have been his real brother or possibly not. Doesn't really matter. And it was working very well until LeGuerta showed up sniffing around and trying to expose Dexter.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:04 PM   #35
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Heh, that would be clever. Give a dumb but necessary consequence of the show's premise an in-story explanation.

Slight problem...she's been in England.
True, but I thought they said she had been back in Miami for about 1 1/2 years so she could have influenced the melon baller murder or given her skill set done it herself.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:25 PM   #36
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True, but I thought they said she had been back in Miami for about 1 1/2 years so she could have influenced the melon baller murder or given her skill set done it herself.
Right, but the problem is there's been an absurdly high number of serial killers in Miami for years now. Had she been whispering in everybody's ear, that would explain that (although the social ramifications of serial killers have been pretty much ignored, and by now those would be massive).
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:29 PM   #37
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I had a thought earlier today. Perhaps the Captain, Vogel, and Harry were part of a secret plan hatched at Miami Metro to create such a killer to take care of the "garbage" that the MMPD could not do, legally? Just like The Borne movies. A classified program to mold and shape a child to "take out the trash". The were just waiting for an abandoned, orphaned child to show up somewhere, place him in the trailer with his "mother" to hatch the memories... and shape and mold his every move. Vogel didn't have to be his step-mother, but someone who was very close to the plot who Dexter may have never seen. The Ice Truck Killer may have been his real brother or possibly not. Doesn't really matter. And it was working very well until LeGuerta showed up sniffing around and trying to expose Dexter.
Do you really think cops would think that far ahead and plan something that wouldn't bear fruit for 20-25 years? When they may no longer be alive or may no longer be on the force? And who is to say this sociopath that they create would be intelligent, principled, and skilled enough to commit murders, do it very discreetly, and only target bad people? That seems like a very long chain of potential coincidences that would have to go right for a plan like that to work.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:30 PM   #38
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Do you really think cops would think that far ahead and plan something that wouldn't bear fruit for 20-25 years? When they may no longer be alive or may no longer be on the force? And who is to say this sociopath that they create would be intelligent, principled, and skilled enough to commit murders, do it very discreetly, and only target bad people? That seems like a very long chain of potential coincidences that would have to go right for a plan like that to work.
It would make an interesting TV series. Oh... wait.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:31 PM   #39
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Right, but the problem is there's been an absurdly high number of serial killers in Miami for years now. Had she been whispering in everybody's ear, that would explain that (although the social ramifications of serial killers have been pretty much ignored, and by now those would be massive).
True.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:12 PM   #40
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Do you really think cops would think that far ahead and plan something that wouldn't bear fruit for 20-25 years? When they may no longer be alive or may no longer be on the force? And who is to say this sociopath that they create would be intelligent, principled, and skilled enough to commit murders, do it very discreetly, and only target bad people?
I agree the first part seems unlikely. The last part, though, Harry had a lot of control over. He basically trained Dexter from childhood to do exactly what you said.

So, if we scrub the whole "plan" and make it more of an opportunist sort of thing -- Harry has toddler Dexter essentially dropped in his lap, he feels guilty since he is sort of responsible for what happened, and he decides to adopt Dexter. But after taking Dexter to a psychiatrist (Vogel?) he finds out that Dexter is at risk to be a sociopath, and Harry, in consultation with Vogel, decides to raise Dexter under his Code and train Dexter to go after other killers without getting caught.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:30 PM   #41
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But you'll need to add in the Captain into the equation, since it's almost certain he knows about the entire plan/plot.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:10 AM   #42
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But you'll need to add in the Captain into the equation, since it's almost certain he knows about the entire plan/plot.
Did I not already say that? Besides, it is not essential to the whole thing. He was friends with Harry and they probably talked about it, but it is not necessary that the Captain played a major part (although he could have...we just don't know).
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:23 AM   #43
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I had a thought earlier today. Perhaps the Captain, Vogel, and Harry were part of a secret plan hatched at Miami Metro to create such a killer to take care of the "garbage" that the MMPD could not do, legally? Just like The Borne movies. A classified program to mold and shape a child to "take out the trash". The were just waiting for an abandoned, orphaned child to show up somewhere, place him in the trailer with his "mother" to hatch the memories... and shape and mold his every move. Vogel didn't have to be his step-mother, but someone who was very close to the plot who Dexter may have never seen. The Ice Truck Killer may have been his real brother or possibly not. Doesn't really matter. And it was working very well until LeGuerta showed up sniffing around and trying to expose Dexter.
I'm starting to like this theory that Dexter was created. Was it ever demonstrated in the show that his "mother" that he watched die was even really his mother or that his "brother" was really his brother? Did Dexter ever try to do a DNA match with them and his own DNA? I think the writers want us to jump to the conclusion that Vogel is his bio-mom. She could be, but I would hope its not that simple.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:37 AM   #44
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I think the writers want us to jump to the conclusion that Vogel is his bio-mom. She could be, but I would hope its not that simple.
I didn't pick up on that until reading it in this thread, and I think it's a reach. Maybe that's where the season is headed, but I don't think so.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:39 AM   #45
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This episode is now available on iTunes for free.
I couldn't find it in the TV section. I really doubt it, 'cause iTunes never has the current season at the same time as broadcast. Unless it's in the Podcast section or something weird like that.

ETA: And yes, I found it in the podcasts... just search for "Dexter Podcast" and it pops up as the first selection.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:32 AM   #46
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I think the writers want us to jump to the conclusion that Vogel is his bio-mom.
They would have to assume we haven't been watching the show, because in light of what we know about Dexter's childhood it makes absolutely no sense.

Clearly, though, she has been involved in some capacity.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:05 AM   #47
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..... Part of why Deb is so ****ed up, ......
Really? Why DEB is so ****ed up? I mean, she's sort of messed up, but Dexter is the king of "****ed up-ness"!
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:28 AM   #48
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I'm starting to like this theory that Dexter was created. Was it ever demonstrated in the show that his "mother" that he watched die was even really his mother or that his "brother" was really his brother? Did Dexter ever try to do a DNA match with them and his own DNA? I think the writers want us to jump to the conclusion that Vogel is his bio-mom. She could be, but I would hope its not that simple.
That was exactly my point. Dexter was told that was his mom in the container and THEN he had those "memories". I don't think it is out of the realm of possiblity that that could have been a lie and Vogel is his mother.

To totally dismiss that because we saw Dexter have a "flashback" seems silly.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:38 AM   #49
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I can't remember -- was the Captain also the Lieutenant before LaGuerta? If not, who was?
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #50
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Isn't the "Captain" now "Deputy Chief"?
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:37 PM   #51
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I can't remember -- was the Captain also the Lieutenant before LaGuerta? If not, who was?
LaGuerta was Lieutenant in season 1 episode 1. I'm not sure if there was ever a flashback or comment on who was Lieutenant before her. (that's Deb's quote, below, from S01E01)


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Old 07-03-2013, 12:41 PM   #52
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That was exactly my point. Dexter was told that was his mom in the container and THEN he had those "memories". I don't think it is out of the realm of possiblity that that could have been a lie and Vogel is his mother.
What seems silly is to have such an outlandish theory without any evidence. Why not go with a simpler theory that fits the evidence, which is that the person who Dexter thinks was his mother is actually his mother?
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:12 PM   #53
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Yeah, whatever his name is. Didn't he start out as Lieutenant, then Captain (when LaGuerta took his place)?

eta: nevermind
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:13 PM   #54
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What seems silly is to have such an outlandish theory without any evidence. Why not go with a simpler theory that fits the evidence, which is that the person who Dexter thinks was his mother is actually his mother?
Because we're talking about a dramatic TV series, not real life.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:17 PM   #55
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Because we're talking about a dramatic TV series, not real life.
Not a good answer. In most TV shows, the writers try to keep the story plausible and reasonably similar to real life.

Now, if we were talking about a show where the writers do not care about that sort of thing at all, like say Revolution, then maybe you would have a point. But the writers for Dexter are no where near as bad as the ones for Revolution.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:26 PM   #56
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Not a good answer. In most TV shows, the writers try to keep the story plausible and reasonably similar to real life.
Sorry, but that's just not true. That's what makes watching these shows so entertaining, that they AREN'T real life. You think Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, Dexter, Sopranos, etc are "plausible" stories? Hardly.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:29 PM   #57
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You think Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, Dexter, Sopranos, etc are "plausible" stories?
Walking Dead, no. With the others, the writers try to make them plausible. They may not always succeed, but they certainly try, and they frequently succeed.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:45 PM   #58
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What seems silly is to have such an outlandish theory without any evidence. Why not go with a simpler theory that fits the evidence, which is that the person who Dexter thinks was his mother is actually his mother?
Can't believe I'm going allow myself to be sucked into your vortex.....

but why is it such an outlandish theory that Dexter's mom was not killed in that container and that Vogel could be her? Seems just as plausible as any other theory one could come up with.

And you don't need any hard evidence for a theory...that's kinda the point.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:55 PM   #59
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Vogel is not Dexter's step mom. If I had the money I would be willing to make a large bet on this. (Now if someone wants to lay me odds and doesn't have any inside information . . .) I saw no clues to even allude to that.

The drawings that she handed Dexter are the type of typical drawings that child psychiatrists have children draw. For instance, they ask them to draw a self portrait and/or a picture of their family and other things. From how the child draws the pictures they can tell a lot about them and how they see the world and fit into it.

I simply think Vogel was a child psychiatrist that Harry brought Dexter to when he was a young child. From this I will assume that Vogel worked with Harry to create a code, so the Dexter could reasonably function in society.

I would love to have a real psychiatrist analyze the pictures. The one I remember was of the family with Dexter apart from Harry, Debra, and mom.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:12 PM   #60
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Can't believe I'm going allow myself to be sucked into your vortex.....

but why is it such an outlandish theory that Dexter's mom was not killed in that container and that Vogel could be her? Seems just as plausible as any other theory one could come up with.

And you don't need any hard evidence for a theory...that's kinda the point.
But it has to make at least some sense. I know it's popular in this post-Lost era to believe that if you can conceive of it, it could be something the writers have in mind. But writers don't (usually) just throw ^#%$ out at random; it needs to fit in with what has gone before, and should be set up in some way. And in this case, we (and Dexter) have SEEN his Mom; she bears no resemblance whatsoever to Charlotte Rampling. And we have SEEN her die, and there's no hint that there was the kind of massive conspiracy necessary to fake her death, much less any motivation whatsoever for anybody to do such a thing.

We also know that Dexter's step-mother died when he was a teenager, so that eliminates her (so to speak).
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