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Old 06-24-2013, 03:06 PM   #121
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Well that sucks. I did read something but I never looked at it too closely. I hope they at least keep the 60 day return policy. Since without reward zone silver the return policy is only 14 days now. Or did they change that too?

EDIT: I wonder if you can get around the financing and points issue buy getting gift cards with the financing and then using the gift cards for the purchase of the item?
Gift cards used towards a purchase don't get any points. They figure you got points by buying the giftcards.

I believe they kept the 60 day.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:32 PM   #122
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What are you talking about? Mine picks up the midnight repeats constantly.
Interesting. Mine doesn't, at least the one time I tried it. I just ended up making a manual recording for the midnight repeat.

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I am really curious about what mr. unnatural does for a living.
LOL. Same here.

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Completely false, and if you order your SPs correctly with cable channels always lower than network you'll find that 4 tuners is usually plenty, because Tivo will always pick up a later cable showing.

I sometimes wonder if you actually use any DVR.
Mine did not pick up the repeat. I stand corrected in general, but in the case that I saw, it DID NOT pick up the repeat.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:41 PM   #123
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Interesting. Mine doesn't, at least the one time I tried it. I just ended up making a manual recording for the midnight repeat.
It should. Only two things would trigger this behavior. 1) If the same episode had been recorded in the last 28 days. 2) The original air date is more then 2 weeks prior to the current date.

I had a problem once with it not recording an Showtime show and when I looked at the data I saw that even though the episodes were new all the data had an original air date of a couple months prior so TiVo thought it was old. Like everything on TiVo it depends on good data. Without good data the whole system can be unpredictable.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:51 PM   #124
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I don't suppose there is any chance new DVRs will have at least gigabit ethernet is there? It would be nice to take less than 20 minutes to download a recorded show.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:01 PM   #125
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The slowness when transferring to a PC is caused by the CPU not the network speed. When you download a show to a PC TiVo applies encryption to the stream on the fly. This process requires CPU cycles to accomplish. In the past every new generation of TiVo has seen a bump in transfer speeds because they also go a CPU bump. This next generation shouldn't be any exception.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:30 PM   #126
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I don't think Tivo would bother with an OTA-dedicated box. The market isn't big enough. Plus with analog support removed, that makes it easier to make a combined cable/OTA box.

The Premiere and XL launched at $300 and $500. The Elite/XL4 also launched at $500. I'm using those points as my guide.

- $300 4-tuner Cable/OTA
- $400 6-tuner Cable
- $500 6-tuner Cable XL6

All before Lifetime or theoretical launch upgrade offers.

The current platform officially EOL's and they probably all drop in price to between $100 and $300 to dump supply. Analog support will EOL too, so if anyone needs analog get a discounted Premiere during an inevitable sale over the summer while you still can.
I agree with everything you said, from the three specific boxes to the tuner configurations and prices.

Also, for people who say 6 tuners are overkill. The implementation of the TiVo Mini without dynamic tuner allocation essentially wastes any extra tuners. It barely breaks even.

6 tuner digital cable DVR with beefier processor and (hopefully) built in stream will be what I've waited for since I first bought my Premier on launch day. Paying $800 for one of those boxes is a no brainer considering how long TiVo wait to iterate.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:14 AM   #127
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I agree with everything you said, from the three specific boxes to the tuner configurations and prices.

Also, for people who say 6 tuners are overkill. The implementation of the TiVo Mini without dynamic tuner allocation essentially wastes any extra tuners. It barely breaks even.

6 tuner digital cable DVR with beefier processor and (hopefully) built in stream will be what I've waited for since I first bought my Premier on launch day. Paying $800 for one of those boxes is a no brainer considering how long TiVo wait to iterate.
I would be surprised if TiVo raises the entry point for their service to $300. They are currently selling the Premiere 4 + Mini Bundle for $270.

I'm expecting the new 4-tuner to start at a subsidized $249 with a 500 GB drive. A 4-tuner with a larger drive for $350. 6 tuner with built-in Stream for $400 and larger drive for $500.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:26 AM   #128
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I think they may even lower the price for the 4 tuner to get the price of entry down to where the current 2 tuner box is. TiVo still needs to compete with cable DVRs. If their cheapest box is $250 + service I think that will turn a lot of people away. I'm betting it's in the $150-175 range.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:43 AM   #129
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I think they may even lower the price for the 4 tuner to get the price of entry down to where the current 2 tuner box is. TiVo still needs to compete with cable DVRs. If their cheapest box is $250 + service I think that will turn a lot of people away. I'm betting it's in the $150-175 range.
I hope you are right and agree with you. Perhaps they figured out a way to lower the cost of the 4-tuner box. They've figured out how to make the Mini for a subsidized $99 so perhaps they can make the 4-tuner for a subsidized $149. IMHO, a 4-tuner with built-in WiFi and NextGen performance for $149 + service would sell very well.

Does everyone expect them to keep the Premiere name?
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:55 AM   #130
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I did initially, but now I'm not sure. If they were just adding a 6 tuner unit then a Premiere XL6 wouldn't conflict with the current line. But if they also have a 4 tuner then they almost have to change the name to avoid confusion. Maybe they'll call it Premiere Next, or something like that.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:06 PM   #131
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Or the TiVo One or TiVo 5.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:12 PM   #132
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Or the TiVo One or TiVo 5.
I was thinking they could leave the name of the 4-tuner alone and rename the 6-tuner with built-in Stream the TiVo One.

I wouldn't be against renaming the 4-tuner as well since it supposedly has built-in WiFi and additional functionality.

I do see the confusion element so maybe it should be the Premiere 4S, Premiere XL4S, Premiere 6, and Premiere XL6...
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:53 PM   #133
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I hope you are right and agree with you. Perhaps they figured out a way to lower the cost of the 4-tuner box. They've figured out how to make the Mini for a subsidized $99 so perhaps they can make the 4-tuner for a subsidized $149. IMHO, a 4-tuner with built-in WiFi and NextGen performance for $149 + service would sell very well.

Does everyone expect them to keep the Premiere name?
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I did initially, but now I'm not sure. If they were just adding a 6 tuner unit then a Premiere XL6 wouldn't conflict with the current line. But if they also have a 4 tuner then they almost have to change the name to avoid confusion. Maybe they'll call it Premiere Next, or something like that.
What if they offer a stripped version of the 4 tuner? Drop the WiFi so it is only on the XL version and 6 tuner models. Or on the stripped version include wifi but drop OTA. 500gb drives have probably fallen even more so they should be able to get a $199 pricepoint at least.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:11 PM   #134
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What if they offer a stripped version of the 4 tuner? Drop the WiFi so it is only on the XL version and 6 tuner models. Or on the stripped version include wifi but drop OTA. 500gb drives have probably fallen even more so they should be able to get a $199 pricepoint at least.
I think stripping things like that might actually cost more. When you strip things like that you have to do a whole separate production run. When all they do is vary the HDD size it's something that can be adjusted for during the assembly process.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:20 PM   #135
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I hope at least one Series 5 box has OTA and cable combo support (4 tuners each would be ideal). I'm OTA right now, but that may change in the future. I'd hate to buy a product that doesn't give me the flexibility to change my mind.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:20 PM   #136
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What if they offer a stripped version of the 4 tuner? Drop the WiFi so it is only on the XL version and 6 tuner models. Or on the stripped version include wifi but drop OTA. 500gb drives have probably fallen even more so they should be able to get a $199 pricepoint at least.
If you drop OTA, you would have a Premiere 4 with built-in wi-fi. I doubt there is a huge market for that.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:42 PM   #137
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I hope at least one Series 5 box has OTA and cable combo support (4 tuners each would be ideal). I'm OTA right now, but that may change in the future. I'd hate to buy a product that doesn't give me the flexibility to change my mind.
I'm pretty sure that's the plan. At least based on the FCC filings.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:43 PM   #138
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If you drop OTA, you would have a Premiere 4 with built-in wi-fi. I doubt there is a huge market for that.
Correct which would be replacing the outgoing Premiere 4 and allow them a starting unit at $199. For those that want OTA they then have a Premiere 4 with OTA at $249-$299.

Also the cable companies who opt for the 4 tuner model wouldn't need the ones with OTA.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:57 PM   #139
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Correct which would be replacing the outgoing Premiere 4 and allow them a starting unit at $199. For those that want OTA they then have a Premiere 4 with OTA at $249-$299.

Also the cable companies who opt for the 4 tuner model wouldn't need the ones with OTA.
Which goes back to my original estimates:

P5 - 4 Tuner Cable only @ $199
P5 - 4 Tuner Cable w/OTA @ $249
P5 - 6 Tuner Cable only @ $349
P5 - 6 Tuner XL Cable only @ $449 (with built in stream)
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:59 PM   #140
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I don't think there are going to be separate 4 tuner units, one with and one without OTA. Right now they have two hardware platforms, the 2 tuner and the 4 tuner. For the next gen I expect the same thing but 4 tuner and 6 tuner. Creating a bunch of variants not only increases production costs (they have minimum runs for each unit) but it creates customer confusion. It would be better if they can figure out a way to manufacture a unit with cable and OTA cheap enough that it can be the entry level unit.

As for their MSO partners... They use the 2 tuner Premier now, which supports OTA, and have no problem with it so I don't think they would care if the new unit also supported OTA. And if they did TiVo could always offer them the option to disable OTA via software.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #141
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So does anyone want to speculate on what tuners/demodulators these new DVRs might be using? Any difference between what is available for OTA versus cable?
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:14 PM   #142
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So does anyone want to speculate on what tuners/demodulators these new DVRs might be using? Any difference between what is available for OTA versus cable?
Comcast (in CT) is going all scramble all channels starting in July, I would expect most cable co will do the same over time, so my question can a TiVo tuner be made less expensive if it will only work with a M cable card?
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:14 PM   #143
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I don't think there are going to be separate 4 tuner units, one with and one without OTA.
Possibly, I suppose it will depend on how much the OTA tuners add to the base costs of the unit. I suspect they are going to want to keep a entry level unit at $200... That seems to be a sweet spot for TiVo.

If they can get OTA into a 4 tuner box @ that price point then you may be correct. If they cannot, then I see a market for separating the products.

I do think the prospect of only including the Stream functionality in the XL version makes sense. (even though it is likely only a software update)
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:16 PM   #144
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Comcast (in CT) is going all scramble all channels starting in July, I would expect most cable co will do the same over time, so my question can a TiVo tuner be made less expensive if it will only work with a M cable card?
Help me out on this Lessd...

How does that differ from today? My TiVo currently works with an M Cable Card...
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #145
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Comcast (in CT) is going all scramble all channels starting in July, I would expect most cable co will do the same over time, so my question can a TiVo tuner be made less expensive if it will only work with a M cable card?
I seriously doubt it.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #146
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He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:21 PM   #147
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I do think the prospect of only including the Stream functionality in the XL version makes sense. (even though it is likely only a software update)
I'm not sure if they'll limit that functionality to just the XL unit. I think that the very least it will be supported by all 6 tuner units, and maybe all units. If the chipset they're using supports it then I don't think they would disable it via software just to bolster the features of the more expensive XL unit. Although there are a few variants of the Broadcom chipset in the same family, some that have transcoding and some that don't, so I could see them using a cheaper one, that doesn't do transocding, for the 4 tuner and a more expensive one that does for the 6 tuner. So it could be a 6 tuner only feature.

If it is supported by all units then the standalone Stream is going to be short lived. They might keep it around for a little while to support older units, but if all new units have the capability built in then sales of the standalone unit are going to fall off a cliff.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:25 PM   #148
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He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.
QAM is QAM. The only difference between ClearQAM and encrypted QAM is a flag in the stream that marks it as encrypted. It's not like they use separate chips or anything. The only way they could "remove" ClearQAM is via some sort of software patch, which would cost them money not save them any. Plus it's not like they really support ClearQAM now. The tuner can pick it up but they don't assign any guide data to it. So unless you have a CableCARD it's basically useless anyway.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:32 PM   #149
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QAM is QAM.
In this same vane aren't digital OTA and digital Cable tuners the same? With the difference being the demodulator? I thought the Premiere only had 2 tuners that were the same but 2 different demodulators. Anyone want to explain this a little more?
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:34 PM   #150
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He's talking about removing ClearQAM. I would say the possibility of such a removal is slim-to-none. The perceived cost savings would be offset by losing functionality that a large swath of the country can still use.
While I doubt there would be any cost savings, I also doubt there are many people actually utilizing clear QAM on TiVo. The lack of guide data sorta puts a damper on the whole experience.
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