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Old 06-18-2013, 02:51 PM   #31
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Don sort of got hired the same way as Bob?

Sterling came to buy a coat and Don showed him some of ad work his work for the coat store, they went for drinks and Sterling got really drunk, the next day Sterling is walking into work and is surprised to see Don entering the building. Don says Sterling hired him the night before while drinking.Sterling doesn't say anything and they walk in together..... Of course we don't know the details, but I always thought it was fishy..
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #32
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Don never claimed any credentials, just an interest in advertising.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:38 PM   #33
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Don never claimed any credentials, just an interest in advertising.
Well, Dick Whitman claimed his name was Don Draper. That's a little bigger issue than simply embellishing your resume.

And to be clear, Pete realized that he could be a jerk to Bob and Bob would leave the firm, but that wouldn't help the firm, nor would it help Pete. Pete realized that by allowing Bob to stick around and keeping his secret, Bob would continue to use his stellar talents for schmoozing to help the firm (that Pete is a partner of) and Pete would be able to wield some control over Bob because Bob will fear that his secret could get out.

What Bob doesn't know, and we're not even sure if Don realizes this, is that nobody in this industry cares about your name or your background. They simply care what you can do for them. So when Pete brought the information about Don/Dick to Bert Cooper's attention, Bert realized that Don was an asset to the firm and told Pete to forget about it. Don remained terrified that people would find out, not knowing that people already had found out and had judged him valuable enough to overlook it. Bob will continue to live in fear that Pete will out him, but what Bob doesn't know, and what Pete does know, is that the info Pete has on Bob is meaningless. Bob's performance speaks for itself.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:50 PM   #34
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I understood the scene where Pete decided to let Bob stay at the firm. I get that motivation.

But I still don't get the motivation of Bob hitting on Pete in the last episode. Did Bob actually think Pete was gay and was trying to seduce him? Surely Bob isn't really interested in Pete? It's just a game? One that backfired horribly (at least the gay seduction part).

Is Pete's mother's ex-nurse that Bob suggested, Bob's lover? Or just an accomplice? Did t(he)y plan to rob Pete's mother blind? Or is the nurse no one really, just a way for Bob to become more valuable to Pete (assume the nurse would have worked out, which didn't happen).

I think Bob is a huge distraction this season although maybe I see where they're going with it now.

Too bad, he's a fantastic actor and a great addition to the cast. I still wish FOX would release the unaired episodes of "Lone Star".
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:51 PM   #35
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It seems funny to me that in Don's world a guy who can schmooze with clients and let them shoot at him is valued as high as someone who can come up with a brilliant ad campaign like Don or Peggy. Or at least almost as high.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:59 PM   #36
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But I still don't get the motivation of Bob hitting on Pete in the last episode. Did Bob actually think Pete was gay and was trying to seduce him?
Didn't someone get let go back a few seasons for being gay? Maybe Bob thinks he can make them think Pete is gay by putting him in an awkward position and then going and complaining himself that Pete is coming on to him. Then he gets Pete's job.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:24 PM   #37
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But I still don't get the motivation of Bob hitting on Pete in the last episode. Did Bob actually think Pete was gay and was trying to seduce him? Surely Bob isn't really interested in Pete? It's just a game? One that backfired horribly (at least the gay seduction part).
I didn't get that either. Pete had just called Manolo a "degenerate" when Bob hinted that Manolo was not interested in women, so I can't see how Bob would then read that as thinking he had a chance with Pete. I was totally confused by that scene. Although I did take it to mean that Bob was explaining that Manolo was Bob's lover and that Manolo had been Bob's nurse/provider and Bob had developed his feelings for Manolo due to how well Manolo took care of him. What I didn't understand was Bob seemingly making a pass at Pete by touching knees.

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Didn't someone get let go back a few seasons for being gay? Maybe Bob thinks he can make them think Pete is gay by putting him in an awkward position and then going and complaining himself that Pete is coming on to him. Then he gets Pete's job.
Yes, Sal was fired but it wasn't because he was gay. It was because their biggest client, Lee Garner Jr. of Lucky Strike was gay and had made a pass at Sal. Sal turned him down and Lee Garner Jr. was humiliated, so he forced Roger to can Sal.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #38
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It seems funny to me that in Don's world a guy who can schmooze with clients and let them shoot at him is valued as high as someone who can come up with a brilliant ad campaign like Don or Peggy. Or at least almost as high.
Since Don is the (anti-) hero of this show and creative is definitely the shining star of the show, it makes sense that the writers have marginalized account management a bit. But in reality, without account managers, the creative team would have no one to pitch ideas to. Account managers have to keep the client happy and keep the creative teams in line and it is a difficult job to do. Agencies I've worked at and with the account manager is much more integral and involved than what we see on Mad Men. They do a lot more than just go to dinner and shake hands.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:29 PM   #39
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I didn't get that either. Pete had just called Manolo a "degenerate" when Bob hinted that Manolo was not interested in women, so I can't see how Bob would then read that as thinking he had a chance with Pete..
The topic was broached and it was Bob's opportunity. Bob disagrees that what he suggests to Pete is degenerate, perhaps thinking Pete is in denial. Bob presents his case.. advertising!
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:03 AM   #40
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Well, Dick Whitman claimed his name was Don Draper. That's a little bigger issue than simply embellishing your resume.

And to be clear, Pete realized that he could be a jerk to Bob and Bob would leave the firm, but that wouldn't help the firm, nor would it help Pete. Pete realized that by allowing Bob to stick around and keeping his secret, Bob would continue to use his stellar talents for schmoozing to help the firm (that Pete is a partner of) and Pete would be able to wield some control over Bob because Bob will fear that his secret could get out.

What Bob doesn't know, and we're not even sure if Don realizes this, is that nobody in this industry cares about your name or your background. They simply care what you can do for them. So when Pete brought the information about Don/Dick to Bert Cooper's attention, Bert realized that Don was an asset to the firm and told Pete to forget about it. Don remained terrified that people would find out, not knowing that people already had found out and had judged him valuable enough to overlook it. Bob will continue to live in fear that Pete will out him, but what Bob doesn't know, and what Pete does know, is that the info Pete has on Bob is meaningless. Bob's performance speaks for itself.
From the firm's standpoint, all true. From a client standpoint? I'm not so sure. I know it's a different time, but in my line of work, very often a client coming on board will request the CVs of those working on the team. Maybe in the 1960s this wasn't a regular occurrence. I'm not sure (and yes, I know, it's a TV show, and it all probably doesn't matter). If Bob is found out by a client, couldn't that mean trouble for the firm. Don at least has a reputation in the business. Other companies know who he is.

The thing about Bob is, we STILL don't know what his motivation is. Is he just one of those people who bounce around from job to job pretending to be someone else and once found out, he just skips town and does it again? Or is he some sort of grifter with some ulterior motive that's going to come back and bite someone on the butt. Since there's one more season, I kind of feel that Bob is going to play a pivotal role in how the series ends.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #41
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I didn't get that either. Pete had just called Manolo a "degenerate" when Bob hinted that Manolo was not interested in women, so I can't see how Bob would then read that as thinking he had a chance with Pete. I was totally confused by that scene. Although I did take it to mean that Bob was explaining that Manolo was Bob's lover and that Manolo had been Bob's nurse/provider and Bob had developed his feelings for Manolo due to how well Manolo took care of him. What I didn't understand was Bob seemingly making a pass at Pete by touching knees.
I don't think Manolo was ever Bob's nurse. Didn't Bob say he was his father's nurse (or another relative). Or maybe that was just a lie and Manolo is just Bob's lover. Or maybe Manolo was the nurse of whomever Bob took care of at his last job (didn't they call him a manservant?).

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Yes, Sal was fired but it wasn't because he was gay. It was because their biggest client, Lee Garner Jr. of Lucky Strike was gay and had made a pass at Sal. Sal turned him down and Lee Garner Jr. was humiliated, so he forced Roger to can Sal.
True. But I think at least a little of that can be attributed to at least Don being a little bit disgusted at Sal when he discovered him in that hotel room with the bellhop.

I don't think Don or Roger felt the least bit guilty getting rid of a homosexual from their office.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:11 PM   #42
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From the firm's standpoint, all true. From a client standpoint? I'm not so sure. I know it's a different time, but in my line of work, very often a client coming on board will request the CVs of those working on the team. Maybe in the 1960s this wasn't a regular occurrence. I'm not sure (and yes, I know, it's a TV show, and it all probably doesn't matter). If Bob is found out by a client, couldn't that mean trouble for the firm. Don at least has a reputation in the business. Other companies know who he is.

The thing about Bob is, we STILL don't know what his motivation is. Is he just one of those people who bounce around from job to job pretending to be someone else and once found out, he just skips town and does it again? Or is he some sort of grifter with some ulterior motive that's going to come back and bite someone on the butt. Since there's one more season, I kind of feel that Bob is going to play a pivotal role in how the series ends.
What kinds of qualifications are required to be an effective accounts man? You have to be charming. You have to be able to please the client. You have to be good at navigating interoffice politics. Bob has all of those in spades. What is not required (from the client's standpoint) is a fancy degree from a prestigious university, or a blue-blood upbringing. So while Bob may have relied on some of those things in order to get his foot in the door at SC&P, they're not what's going to keep him there, and they certainly shouldn't matter to the client. Bob will be a better, more attentive account man than anyone else at SC&P could even dream of being, so from the client's standpoint, they should be thrilled.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:31 PM   #43
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What kinds of qualifications are required to be an effective accounts man? You have to be charming. You have to be able to please the client. You have to be good at navigating interoffice politics. Bob has all of those in spades. What is not required (from the client's standpoint) is a fancy degree from a prestigious university, or a blue-blood upbringing. So while Bob may have relied on some of those things in order to get his foot in the door at SC&P, they're not what's going to keep him there, and they certainly shouldn't matter to the client. Bob will be a better, more attentive account man than anyone else at SC&P could even dream of being, so from the client's standpoint, they should be thrilled.
I would imagine today, you probably need a degree in marketing to get your foot in the door at a major ad agency. Either that, or lots of experience in the company and probably a list of other clients you worked with. Does Bob have ANY of that? In those days, I am sure the degree wasn't important. But the experience would be for a major client like GM. It makes great TV to show it this way, but I bet the reality of the situation was quite different. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:58 PM   #44
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I am head of my department, in charge of a very highly specialized, extremely technical position in my industry. Just 25 years ago, in the late 80's, I found the job on a bulletin board, and they hired me on my first interview. I had absolutely no education or training in the industry at all. ETA: Today, we won't even interview someone without a minimum of a 4-year degree in the field.

I know nothing about the advertising field, but assuming there are actually people in Bob Benson's position in that industry, I would be willing to bet that 45 years ago in the 60's, if you could talk the talk and get the job done effectively, nobody would think twice about your credentials.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:07 PM   #45
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I am head of my department, in charge of a very highly specialized, extremely technical position in my industry. Just 25 years ago, in the late 80's, I found the job on a bulletin board, and they hired me on my first interview. I had absolutely no education or training in the industry at all. ETA: Today, we won't even interview someone without a minimum of a 4-year degree in the field.

I know nothing about the advertising field, but assuming there are actually people in Bob Benson's position in that industry, I would be willing to bet that 45 years ago in the 60's, if you could talk the talk and get the job done effectively, nobody would think twice about your credentials.
I guess we work in different areas. I've never had a professional job where someone didn't interview me with my resume sitting on their desk next to them. Now within the same company, that's different. I've been in a situation where our company was going after a LARGE (Fortune 500) client and they requested CVs from EVERYONE who they might deal with at the company. And we were a small software firm. We've even had auditors request CVs to make sure that those working on the projects had the credentials to do the work. Now, from Sterling Cooper's standpoint, they might not care. From GM, the largest company on the planet at that time, I would think they would want some proof that they are who they say they are. Not to mention I'd want their most experienced person on it. Bob meets none of that.

But anyway, this has been beaten to death. It's a TV show, and it makes good TV to have it the way it is. That's all that matters. I STILL want to know what Bob's MO is. During his phone call to Manolo (we assume, it was in Spanish) he said something like "He's making it very difficult for me (or it might have been us)". Making WHAT difficult? I think Bob is going to pull something and screw the firm.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:14 PM   #46
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<rant>
I think today that people are just lazy and use college degrees as an easy discriminator to substantially prune the application pool. I was a mathematics major in college and have never used any of it or for that matter any of the other classes I took. Most of what I used on my job I learned on the side doing my own thing. Most of the computer people I know learned on the side. I am generally more impressed by people who learned thing on their own versus cookie cutter classes that many of us took.
</rant>
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:40 PM   #47
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<rant>
I think today that people are just lazy and use college degrees as an easy discriminator to substantially prune the application pool. I was a mathematics major in college and have never used any of it or for that matter any of the other classes I took. Most of what I used on my job I learned on the side doing my own thing. Most of the computer people I know learned on the side. I am generally more impressed by people who learned thing on their own versus cookie cutter classes that many of us took.
</rant>
I agree. I was a business major. Now I do project work in IT. But that said, there is so much corporate structure, and HUGE HR departments that it's next to impossible to hire someone from outside the company without vetting their credentials. It just doesn't happen much anymore. Even Doghows example is rare these days. Twenty-Five years ago, IT was still fairly new. When I got my first job in IT, I didn't have those credentials, but, I did know a lot of stuff that impressed the interviewers in a SMALL company. I had interviewed for similar jobs at bigger companies and didn't get the job. Not enough experience or credentials. I think it's hard to get in to a new company at the bottom without the education. Once you have experience, it's a lot easier. That said, in Bob's case, he had neither the experience or the credentials. What he did have was the ability to brown nose. In 1960s corporate American, I guess that was good enough.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:55 PM   #48
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I think the ease with which we can check credentials today has made it common for companies to do this. But in 1968, checking credentials took a lot of leg work. The only reason Duck did it, is because he was being paid to do it. For GM, they've just hired an ad agency based on the creative work that was pitched and they're confidence that the ad agency can deliver a product that will help sell their cars. They realize that they hired a firm from out of town and therefore they're not going to get their most senior accounts person to leave the firm's HQ and move full-time to Detroit. They realize that the person on the ground in Detroit will be a junior person maintaining the account and keeping the client happy while the creative team in NYC works on the product. So I don't think GM in 1968 would have any reason to check on the credentials of their ad agency's account man. The ad agency would stand to lose a lot more than GM would if they put someone ill-suited into that position. What does GM care as long as SC&P trusts the person and as long as GM's needs are being met?
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:01 PM   #49
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I think the ease with which we can check credentials today has made it common for companies to do this. But in 1968, checking credentials took a lot of leg work. The only reason Duck did it, is because he was being paid to do it. For GM, they've just hired an ad agency based on the creative work that was pitched and they're confidence that the ad agency can deliver a product that will help sell their cars. They realize that they hired a firm from out of town and therefore they're not going to get their most senior accounts person to leave the firm's HQ and move full-time to Detroit. They realize that the person on the ground in Detroit will be a junior person maintaining the account and keeping the client happy while the creative team in NYC works on the product. So I don't think GM in 1968 would have any reason to check on the credentials of their ad agency's account man. The ad agency would stand to lose a lot more than GM would if they put someone ill-suited into that position. What does GM care as long as SC&P trusts the person and as long as GM's needs are being met?
All true. But what if Bob is exposed as a fraud? Then what?
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:22 PM   #50
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All true. But what if Bob is exposed as a fraud? Then what?
But his fraud was to SC&P, not GM. We don't know what SC&P told GM about him. As far as GM is concerned, he's a charming guy who makes sure their needs are met. So if it's exposed that Bob's background is not what he claimed when he was hired by SCDP, then that's an issue SC&P will have to deal with, but I don't think it will concern GM. They'd still be getting the services they expect and require from Bob, regardless of his education or upbringing. And frankly, if Bob ingratiates himself to the client, it could protect him from the firm doing anything to remove him from the account. Just as Pete couldn't talk the other partners out of removing Bob from the account in this episode because Bob's charms have put a spell on them, we can only presume the same thing will happen with the GM execs.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:06 PM   #51
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I never really thought about it, but here's Pete in a job with the major requirement being a good personality and getting along well with others. His personality sucks! Nobody who knows him, likes him--mother and wife included.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:48 PM   #52
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I never really thought about it, but here's Pete in a job with the major requirement being a good personality and getting along well with others. His personality sucks! Nobody who knows him, likes him--mother and wife included.
I think he was fine in the beginning. He was a good schmoozer but kept trying to overthrow Don's authority and you can't do that.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:03 PM   #53
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Back to the Ocean Spray deal -- my take was Don saving the entire account by lying that it was Frank's last idea...he saves the whole deal and OS then actually upped their limit by 10K. I personally think the ad idea was average at best (I worked in marketing and PR for 20 years)....Don realized the idea was just OK, OS threatens to dump it unless they do it for the agreed cost (15K), and, if they don't, there would be no deal at all. So Don pulls this out of his ass and saves the day actually increasing accounts receivable....
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:43 PM   #54
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Back to the Ocean Spray deal -- my take was Don saving the entire account by lying that it was Frank's last idea...he saves the whole deal and OS then actually upped their limit by 10K. I personally think the ad idea was average at best (I worked in marketing and PR for 20 years)....Don realized the idea was just OK, OS threatens to dump it unless they do it for the agreed cost (15K), and, if they don't, there would be no deal at all. So Don pulls this out of his ass and saves the day actually increasing accounts receivable....
That was the baby aspirin deal with Johnson & Johnson, not the cranberry people.

The 10k bump was substantial as it was a 66% increase to $25k from $15k.
Too bad for Peggy not getting credit, but even if it was the next Plop Plop Fizz Fizz it was 2+ times as much as the customer said they wanted to pay, she didn't keep the idea within the set budget.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:48 PM   #55
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Back to the Ocean Spray deal -- my take was Don saving the entire account by lying that it was Frank's last idea...he saves the whole deal and OS then actually upped their limit by 10K. I personally think the ad idea was average at best (I worked in marketing and PR for 20 years)....Don realized the idea was just OK, OS threatens to dump it unless they do it for the agreed cost (15K), and, if they don't, there would be no deal at all. So Don pulls this out of his ass and saves the day actually increasing accounts receivable....
I don't think that money was direct billings that the firm was going to be able to collect. What they were talking about was the cost of residuals that would be owed to the actors every time the ad airs. The original idea of the ad had a whole group of actors in it and Joan said there was easily $50k in residuals there. So now with the limit of $25k, they're either going to have to find cheaper actors or do the commercial with fewer actors, which, according to the way Ted and Peggy described it, would eliminate that claustrophobic feeling they were going for.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:15 PM   #56
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That was the baby aspirin deal with Johnson & Johnson, not the cranberry people...
oops....yeah
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:42 PM   #57
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That was the baby aspirin deal with Johnson & Johnson, not the cranberry people.
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oops....yeah
It was the baby aspirin deal with Plough, Inc (they even mention Mr. Plough being upset). The St. Joseph's brand was acquired by J&J in 2000, and then sold to Ilex Consumer Products Group in 2011.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:19 AM   #58
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:01 AM   #59
mwhip
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The 70's are going to eat Sally alive.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwhip View Post
The 70's are going to eat Sally alive.
The running comment for years has been how much therapy Sally will need after the show ends, and I can't help but think we have a whole series ready in the wings for that eventual result.


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