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Old 06-16-2013, 03:34 PM   #151
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Neither do my tuners with Windows Media Center. Every recording gets its own tuner.
Which means your WMC tuners DO have the problem. TiVo assigns every recording its own tuner, just like WMC does. You just don't care becasue you have spent a fairly large amount of money to purchase an ungodly number of tuners just to make sure you don't have to be bothered with conflicts.

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I can't recall if I was able to work around this on my Tivos by padding both recordings.
That makes it worse, not better.

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IIRC, I had two S3 Tivos and I would generally schedule back-to-back recordings on the same channel on separate Tivos to avoid the overlap problem. I'm surprised that Tivo hasn't fixed such an obvious problem.
I suspect it may be a patent issue. It's possible it was a performance issue. That, or like me, I suppose it is possible the engineers at TiVo just don't really care too very much about the issue.
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Old 06-16-2013, 04:24 PM   #152
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Which means your WMC tuners DO have the problem. TiVo assigns every recording its own tuner, just like WMC does. You just don't care becasue you have spent a fairly large amount of money to purchase an ungodly number of tuners just to make sure you don't have to be bothered with conflicts.
WMC doesn't truncate recordings on back-to-back shows like a Tivo does. If I schedule a recording in WMC with no padding then the first recording ends at the specified time and the next one begins. I choose to pad recordings to compensate for any slight drift in the PC clock as well as scheduling glitches or overruns due to unexpected schedule changes from the broadcaster.

As far as spending an "ungodly amount of money" on tuners, my overall cost is less than a comparable number of Tivos with even fewer tuners. The beauty of owning a HTPC is that increasing the number of tuners is dirt cheap compared to buying additional Tivos. I've got two Ceton InfiniTV4's and a HDHomeRun Prime for a total of eleven available cablecard tuners.

The HDHR tuners are there simply due to the fact that they're connected to my home network and WMC sees them automatically when scanning for tuners during setup. They're actually used by other HTPCs on the network and I have them configured at the bottom of each channel's priority list in WMC on my primary HTPC so they likely never get used to record programs on that PC.

Of the remaining eight cablecard tuners, I have actually seen as many as six of them in use simultaneously so it's not as extravagant as you make it out to be. I paid $399 for my original InfiniTV4 and the 2nd one only cost about $150 on sale so it was hardly an ungodly amount. FWIW, the $399 I paid for my first InfiniTV4 was one of the best purchases I've ever made for my home theater setup. I'm rarely a first adopter of any new technology, but I couldn't wait to get my hands on one of these tuners. I have to say that I was not disappointed. Six cablecard tuners is my sweet spot, but I wanted to use internal tuners rather than networked tuners so my only option was to get two InfiniTV4's. I may have to swap out the two InfiniTV4's for a PCI-e version of the new InfiniTV6 when it gets released,
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:36 PM   #153
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WMC doesn't truncate recordings on back-to-back shows like a Tivo does. If I schedule a recording in WMC with no padding then the first recording ends at the specified time and the next one begins. I choose to pad recordings to compensate for any slight drift in the PC clock as well as scheduling glitches or overruns due to unexpected schedule changes from the broadcaster....
The DirecTV DVR can overlap recordings on a channel, even by an hour or more, and still use only one tuner. So, yeah, you still DO have that problem.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:16 PM   #154
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The DirecTV DVR can overlap recordings on a channel, even by an hour or more, and still use only one tuner. So, yeah, you still DO have that problem.
Much as I would like to see this implemented on TiVos, there's no way in H E double hockey-sticks that I would want the current crop of TiVo s/w developers doing it!
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:25 AM   #155
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The DirecTV DVR can overlap recordings on a channel, even by an hour or more, and still use only one tuner. So, yeah, you still DO have that problem.
I had to go back and refresh my memory as to what you're talking about. I really don't understand the issue or see it as a problem. If I set up a recording for a program and extend the recording time so it overlaps the next time slot and I also schedule a recording on the same channel in that 2nd time slot it would seem logical that two separate tuners should be employed. The DVR should see this as two separate and distinct recordings and should assign separate tuners to each recording. This is exactly the way I'd want the two programs recorded, not as a single combined recording using only one tuner. If this isn't what you're referring to then kindly explain what it is you're going on about. It sounds like you're trying to create a problem where none exists.
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:52 AM   #156
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I had to go back and refresh my memory as to what you're talking about. I really don't understand the issue or see it as a problem. If I set up a recording for a program and extend the recording time so it overlaps the next time slot and I also schedule a recording on the same channel in that 2nd time slot it would seem logical that two separate tuners should be employed. The DVR should see this as two separate and distinct recordings and should assign separate tuners to each recording. This is exactly the way I'd want the two programs recorded, not as a single combined recording using only one tuner. If this isn't what you're referring to then kindly explain what it is you're going on about. It sounds like you're trying to create a problem where none exists.
The recordings are still separate. The overlapping period is just in both recordings.
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Old 06-17-2013, 01:03 PM   #157
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The recordings are still separate. The overlapping period is just in both recordings.
That's what occurs with WMC and separate tuners. Are you saying that you get separate recordings with overlap using a single tuner? If so, that's a pretty slick feature. However, the vast majority of my consecutive recordings tend to occur on different channels so I'd still require separate tuners for each program being recorded. I might have a couple of shows that I record on any given night that occur on the same channel in back-to-back time slots, but they're generally few and far between. The feature you speak of would free up a tuner once in a while, but I'd still need a minimum of 5 or 6 cablecard tuners for all of the shows I record. I also have six ATSC tuners that I use for local channels, but the same premise applies.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:13 PM   #158
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That's what occurs with WMC and separate tuners. Are you saying that you get separate recordings with overlap using a single tuner? If so, that's a pretty slick feature. However, the vast majority of my consecutive recordings tend to occur on different channels so I'd still require separate tuners for each program being recorded. I might have a couple of shows that I record on any given night that occur on the same channel in back-to-back time slots, but they're generally few and far between. The feature you speak of would free up a tuner once in a while, but I'd still need a minimum of 5 or 6 cablecard tuners for all of the shows I record. I also have six ATSC tuners that I use for local channels, but the same premise applies.

Yes, it's done with a single tuner. It really is only an issue for me on NFL Sundays. (An issue with TiVo, that is).
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:17 PM   #159
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Anyone who didn't have a case on their iPhone 4 was an idiot, and no, Apple doesn't provide the requisite case for an iPhone. The spiderweb cracking that you will get on the phone if you don't have it in a case is a whole lot worse than the antenna issue.
The difference is, one is a fault be design, the other only happens by accident.

So your statement is silly.

A phone should not NEED a bumper or a case to function correctly. If you'll recall after the news broke Apple did offer bumpers to i4 owners, to correct the issues.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:17 PM   #160
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Anyone who is actually using an iPhone without a case in the real world is a blathering idiot, and the spiderweb-cracked screen will probably be a lot worse than the reception problems.
I resemble that remark. I initially had a case on my 4S but after about a year I got sick of the bulk it added so I took it off. I've been carrying it around caseless for about 7 months now. Saturday I dropped it for the first time ever. (even when I had a case) Luckily it just got a little ding on one corner and didn't crack the glass. However I'm still kicking myself for not having a case.
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:31 PM   #161
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You think like some wall street person is an idiot because he makes over a Mill /year and does not want to use his time to troubleshoot and maintain his/her own equipment, give me a break
Those folks are running the latest TiVo and owned modem and router equipment that has been installed by their HT/LV guy.

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Yes, it's done with a single tuner. It really is only an issue for me on NFL Sundays. (An issue with TiVo, that is).
Would be helpful for the Daily Show and Colbert Report or other 30-minute show combos to not suck up another tuner during that 1-minute overlap. It seems like a really obvious thing to do and stupid to use two tuners to do it.

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A phone should not NEED a bumper or a case to function correctly. If you'll recall after the news broke Apple did offer bumpers to i4 owners, to correct the issues.
But the issue doesn't happen in the first place, unless the phone is taken out of it's case.

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I resemble that remark. I initially had a case on my 4S but after about a year I got sick of the bulk it added so I took it off. I've been carrying it around caseless for about 7 months now. Saturday I dropped it for the first time ever. (even when I had a case) Luckily it just got a little ding on one corner and didn't crack the glass. However I'm still kicking myself for not having a case.
I'm almost afraid to touch someone else's iPhone that doesn't have at least an Otterbox Commuter on it, if not a Defender or Lifeproof. They're just too darn fragile.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:32 AM   #162
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Would be helpful for the Daily Show and Colbert Report or other 30-minute show combos to not suck up another tuner during that 1-minute overlap. It seems like a really obvious thing to do and stupid to use two tuners to do it.
This is an area where HTPCs with WMC have a clearcut advantage. With Tivos you have to combine recordings for instances like this to preserve your tuners or end up getting additional Tivos so you have enough tuners available. With HTPCs you add as many tuners as you like for just a little extra in cost.

I don't like combining recordings simply because you lose the program title and episode information for the 2nd recording that's been tacked on at the end. You don't have this issue if you record each program individually using separate tuners.

The ability to record using a single tuner for consecutive programs on the same channel while padding both shows is a novel idea and one that was likely patented by DirecTV. If that's the case then Tivo got a taste of their own medicine and would probably get sued up the wazoo by DirecTV if they ever tried to incorporate the same feature. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this feature to show up in any subsequent generation of Tivos if DirecTV does indeed have a lock on it.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:34 PM   #163
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This is an area where HTPCs with WMC have a clearcut advantage. With Tivos you have to combine recordings for instances like this to preserve your tuners or end up getting additional Tivos so you have enough tuners available. With HTPCs you add as many tuners as you like for just a little extra in cost.

I don't like combining recordings simply because you lose the program title and episode information for the 2nd recording that's been tacked on at the end. You don't have this issue if you record each program individually using separate tuners.

The ability to record using a single tuner for consecutive programs on the same channel while padding both shows is a novel idea and one that was likely patented by DirecTV. If that's the case then Tivo got a taste of their own medicine and would probably get sued up the wazoo by DirecTV if they ever tried to incorporate the same feature. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this feature to show up in any subsequent generation of Tivos if DirecTV does indeed have a lock on it.
TiVo will automatically clip the padding if you're running out of tuners, but it would be nice to get the padding AND not use up two tuners. I don't have much of an issue because nothing is really competing at the 11:00 time slot, the big traffic jam is at 9PM, and so far those are all hour shows, but I still wish they did it right.

If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:10 PM   #164
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If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.
Even if they did, doesn't TiVo's "no sue" clause with DTV mean that TiVo could go ahead and use it?

I think the issue is probably technical and has more to do with the file system, how recordings are allocated and stored, than it has to do with business issues.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:27 PM   #165
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I really think Bigg is just trolling for reaction, so I'm out.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:16 AM   #166
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TiVo will automatically clip the padding if you're running out of tuners, but it would be nice to get the padding AND not use up two tuners. I don't have much of an issue because nothing is really competing at the 11:00 time slot, the big traffic jam is at 9PM, and so far those are all hour shows, but I still wish they did it right.

If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.
It may seem obvious to you, but I'd be surprised if it ever occurred to anyone when Tivos were first developed. If it did, chances are they couldn't figure out a way to implement it. When I realized that my S3 Tivos were clipping shows that overlapped, it was one of the major factors that pushed me towards using a HTPC instead. It's pretty clear that I like to have a lot of tuners and the thought of having an equivalent number of Tivos to suit my needs simply wasn't feasible. Having the ability to upgrade the basic platform with an almost unlimited number of tuners and numerous other things far outweighed any minor annoyances that WMC may have presented. You've got to look at the big picture and not get bogged down with the little things that turn out to be pretty insignificant in the end.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:47 PM   #167
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Even if they did, doesn't TiVo's "no sue" clause with DTV mean that TiVo could go ahead and use it?

I think the issue is probably technical and has more to do with the file system, how recordings are allocated and stored, than it has to do with business issues.
That's probably true.

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I really think Bigg is just trolling for reaction, so I'm out.
Sorry you erroneously think that. I just say it like it is.

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It may seem obvious to you, but I'd be surprised if it ever occurred to anyone when Tivos were first developed. If it did, chances are they couldn't figure out a way to implement it. When I realized that my S3 Tivos were clipping shows that overlapped, it was one of the major factors that pushed me towards using a HTPC instead. It's pretty clear that I like to have a lot of tuners and the thought of having an equivalent number of Tivos to suit my needs simply wasn't feasible. Having the ability to upgrade the basic platform with an almost unlimited number of tuners and numerous other things far outweighed any minor annoyances that WMC may have presented. You've got to look at the big picture and not get bogged down with the little things that turn out to be pretty insignificant in the end.
It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:37 AM   #168
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It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.
It's entirely possible that the original hardware simply wasn't capable of doing it.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:51 AM   #169
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Sorry you erroneously think that. I just say it like it is.
No, you just say it like you think it is. Facts and opinions aren't the same thing.

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It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.
If it's that obvious, don't you think Tivo would have added the feature if they could? If a feature is too expensive to include in a design, it's not going to be added in order to keep manufacturing costs down.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:14 AM   #170
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It's a pretty obvious way to handle things. It would just make sense.
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If it's that obvious, don't you think Tivo would have added the feature if they could? If a feature is too expensive to include in a design, it's not going to be added in order to keep manufacturing costs down.
It's far easier to implement this feature when everything is digital and you do not have to convert from analog.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:32 AM   #171
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TiVo will automatically clip the padding if you're running out of tuners, but it would be nice to get the padding AND not use up two tuners. I don't have much of an issue because nothing is really competing at the 11:00 time slot, the big traffic jam is at 9PM, and so far those are all hour shows, but I still wish they did it right.

If DirecTV patented that, then that clearly shows again how broken the patent system is. That's just an obvious thing to do.
If you have clipping On. Which is one thing I never use. I would rather get the show from somewhere else than have several minutes of the show missing.
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Old 06-21-2013, 06:36 PM   #172
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No, you just say it like you think it is. Facts and opinions aren't the same thing.


If it's that obvious, don't you think Tivo would have added the feature if they could? If a feature is too expensive to include in a design, it's not going to be added in order to keep manufacturing costs down.
I'm not going to claim that I'm a genius. I'm not. And it was obvious to me.

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It's far easier to implement this feature when everything is digital and you do not have to convert from analog.
It shouldn't matter, as the analog was digitized, so once it got to the drive it was effectively the same from the FS perspective anyways.

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If you have clipping On. Which is one thing I never use. I would rather get the show from somewhere else than have several minutes of the show missing.
It's close enough that you don't lose much.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:46 PM   #173
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It shouldn't matter, as the analog was digitized, so once it got to the drive it was effectively the same from the FS perspective anyways.
You're not thinking it through. It matters precisely because the TiVo had to convert it. Consider this - you have back to back recordings scheduled on the same channel. One you aren't concerned about quality so set it for "Basic". The other, you do care, so you have set it for "Best". At what quality is the overlap recorded? Was the h/w even capable of switching in mid stream w/o missing anything?
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #174
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You're not thinking it through. It matters precisely because the TiVo had to convert it. Consider this - you have back to back recordings scheduled on the same channel. One you aren't concerned about quality so set it for "Basic". The other, you do care, so you have set it for "Best". At what quality is the overlap recorded? Was the h/w even capable of switching in mid stream w/o missing anything?
They would have to be the same quality. It would require a little bit of software and some UI elements, moreso than on current all-digital platforms.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:58 PM   #175
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They would have to be the same quality.
And if they're not? I'm sorry, but IMHO, it would have created more problems than it was worth. And as I indicated, I'm not even sure it was doable with the original h/w.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:37 AM   #176
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It shouldn't matter, as the analog was digitized, so once it got to the drive it was effectively the same from the FS perspective anyways.
It matters a great deal. The Tivo CPU is woefully underpowered in just about every model they've ever produced. The original analog Tivos had just about enough juice to handle a single stream for playback and recording. This is one area where Tivo has always been cheap in designing their DVRs. Another is the lack of sufficient memory.

It's much less critical these days now that everything has gone digital. Recording a digital stream requires very little CPU power. Recording two separate streams from the same tuner may require a bit of processing, but I have no idea how much is involved. The architecture of recording the same signal as two separate digital streams may sound simple, but it's probably more complex than we realize. If it were really that simple I suspect that Tivo would have implemented it by now.

I may have been obvious to Tivo as well, but probably not achievable with the technology available at the time. Perhaps Tivo will revisit this in the future, but for now, we're stuck with whatever technology they deem necessary.

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It's close enough that you don't lose much.
ANY loss is unacceptable. I see little point in using a DVR in a manner that's going to cut off part of the recording. Padding a Tivo recording isn't something you do because you want to. You do it because you have to.
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:13 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by mr.unnatural View Post
It matters a great deal. The Tivo CPU is woefully underpowered in just about every model they've ever produced. The original analog Tivos had just about enough juice to handle a single stream for playback and recording. This is one area where Tivo has always been cheap in designing their DVRs. Another is the lack of sufficient memory.

It's much less critical these days now that everything has gone digital. Recording a digital stream requires very little CPU power. Recording two separate streams from the same tuner may require a bit of processing, but I have no idea how much is involved. The architecture of recording the same signal as two separate digital streams may sound simple, but it's probably more complex than we realize. If it were really that simple I suspect that Tivo would have implemented it by now.
I don't believe the CPU is responsible for encoding but rather it is done by a special purpose chip but it could only handle one stream per tuner. Also, there would be some extra CPU processing required.

It isn't actually necessary to record two separate streams. You could simply link the overlapping blocks to two recordings. The only problem with that method is that it makes the process for freeing up space more complicated, particularly when it comes to "Recently Deleted" recordings. Do DirecTV DVRs have a recently deleted folder? I know they didn't the last time I used one but that was 5 years ago.
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Old 06-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #178
mr.unnatural
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That's a valid point. I suspect most of the processing done on a Tivo is performed by ASICs (i.e., Application Specific Integrated Circuits) that are designed for that purpose. The CPU is mostly for functioning with the Linux OS and controlling other basic software functions.

I can't answer the question about DirecTV DVRs. I dropped DirecTV in favor of FIOS about 6 years ago. The main reason being that I had to decide whether or not to commit to another 2-year contract with DirecTV because my HR10-250 Tivos were about to become useless for DirecTV recording or switch to FIOS and get a S3 Tivo. The new DirecTV HD-DVRs were quite buggy at the time and I was more than a bit hesitant to get locked into a contract not knowing if they were going to pan out. I made the switch to FIOS and never regretted it for an instant.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:11 PM   #179
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[quote=Bigg;9700969]Unfortunately, the cable companies, like cell phone companies, want the hardware to be owned by them end to end, partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment [quote]

LOL!!! Bet you wish you can take this one back!!
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:46 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.unnatural View Post
ANY loss is unacceptable. I see little point in using a DVR in a manner that's going to cut off part of the recording. Padding a Tivo recording isn't something you do because you want to. You do it because you have to.
It sucks on Mythbusters, but most other shows, that 10 seconds doesn't really matter, as it's just junk anyways. It's been a problem with DVRs and VCRs for a long time.

[quote=Richard Cranium;9709546][quote=Bigg;9700969]Unfortunately, the cable companies, like cell phone companies, want the hardware to be owned by them end to end, partly because of idiot consumers who can't troubleshoot and maintain their own equipment
Quote:

LOL!!! Bet you wish you can take this one back!!
Why???
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