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Old 05-19-2013, 12:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by john4200 View Post

Again you have it wrong. Moriarty appeared in or was mentioned in 7 different Sherlock Holmes stories written by Doyle.

And yes, it does appear the Moriarty played a part in the enduring popularity of the Sherlock Holmes stories. Look at how many of the most popular subsequent adaptions of Sherlock Holmes have Moriarty as an important part of the story.
Appeared or mentioned does not mean being a part of. I am not wrong. He appeared in two stories. Period. Mentions do not rate worth anything. Nobody ever said "Oh! Did you read the latest Sherlock Holmes story? He mentioned Moriarty. It was so exciting!"

"Does appear?" Why because newer writers are incapable of writing something without a "big bad?" Ignore all the remakes and retellings of non-Moriarty stories.

Holmes did and does quite well without Moriarty. In fact, even Elementary did well without her. And hopefully she is done now. Good story. Good twist but if the series becomes nothing but Holmes and Moriarty, it loses a lot of its charm.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:39 PM   #32
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When a character only appears in 2 of 60 stories, no matter how important the author says he was, he was not integral to Holmes success as an iconic character nor his commercial success. Holmes was popular without Moriarty. The character and the stories don't need him. I maintain he was relatively minor. And, personally, not my favorite aspect of Holmes. The twist of him actually being. Irene was cool but if the show becomes Holmes versus Irene, I won't like it as much. Repetitive villains are boring.
I agree.

I only read a few of the Sherlock Holmes short stories(a long long time ago) - I think they were early pre-Moriarty, and I don't think Moriarty would have improved them. I kind of worry that "Moriarty" really has too much weight in the Holmes mythos and they're playing the card too early. (Like Batman was around for like 50 years before Bane, but every modern tv version feels the need to pull him out in the first season, and both of the recent movie series need to pull out some version of him in movie 3)

On tv shows, I don't mind a "big bad" as a secondary story, and I prefer that it doesn't go on for more than one season.

I thought having an adversary with similar powers has ruined a couple shows(Joan of Arcadia, Tru Calling) for me in the past that I really enjoyed season one, but season two turned the show into a completely different dynamic.

(Hopefully I haven't spoiled Batman, Joan, or Tru for anyone...)
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:44 PM   #33
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Good story. Good twist but if the series becomes nothing but Holmes and Moriarty, it loses a lot of its charm.
I don't think there's any real danger of that happening. It's CBS, so most episodes will be your standard self contained procedurals. She will probably escape at some point in the future because as we have learned from television, when you have a vast criminal empire, escape is easy, but she'll only appear during an occasional special episode. She may get mentioned on other occasions but it won't be the dominant storyline.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:52 PM   #34
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Mentions do not rate worth anything.
Wrong again. The fact that Holmes is thinking about Moriarty and he gets mentioned in the story because of it is quite significant. It shows how important Moriarty is to the character development of Holmes.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:54 PM   #35
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I don't think there's any real danger of that happening. It's CBS, so most episodes will be your standard self contained procedurals. She will probably escape at some point in the future because as we have learned from television, when you have a vast criminal empire, escape is easy, but she'll only appear during an occasional special episode. She may get mentioned on other occasions but it won't be the dominant storyline.
Right. It will probably be the typical separation into the more common villain of the week episodes and the occasional "arc" episode with Moriarty.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #36
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Having an unbeatable antagonist isn't exciting or fun, it's just dreary. I'm really happy that they caught her in Elementary, and am hoping she stays caught, at least for some time.

Using Moriarty in the future would just be an indication of lazy writing.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #37
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I thought having an adversary with similar powers has ruined a couple shows(Joan of Arcadia, Tru Calling) for me in the past that I really enjoyed season one, but season two turned the show into a completely different dynamic.
I much prefer to see the hero challenged by someone who is his equal (or near equal). And I don't think I am in the minority in this. Having the hero always be the smartest or strongest tends to get boring. Also, the hero character development is usually more interesting when there is an ongoing nemesis.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:12 PM   #38
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I much prefer to see the hero challenged by someone who is his equal (or near equal). And I don't think I am in the minority in this. Having the hero always be the smartest or strongest tends to get boring. Also, the hero character development is usually more interesting when there is an ongoing nemesis.
In the case of Joan, I liked Season 1 in that it was about her family, dealing with her brother's accident, and the powers or whoever she saved week to week was incidental, and to me, it was about her putting her family back together. Season 2 felt like it focussed more about the powers and the adversary.

In Tru, I liked the puzzle, where the info she got was incomplete. So it was her against time, and trying to figure it out. Adding the adversary increased the time pressure, but I think it was unnecessary.

Just to be clear though, I'm not making any claim anyone else thinks like me. I'm just saying those are what ruined it for me, and I hope they don't do that in Elementary. And even if they do use Moriarty, I think season one was too early to play the mention/existence of Moriarty card, let alone reveal the identity.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:22 PM   #39
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Having an unbeatable antagonist isn't exciting or fun, it's just dreary. I'm really happy that they caught her in Elementary, and am hoping she stays caught, at least for some time.

Using Moriarty in the future would just be an indication of lazy writing.
you really have no idea who Moriarty and Sherlock Holmes are, do you ?
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:32 PM   #40
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Having an unbeatable antagonist isn't exciting or fun, it's just dreary.
Wait, are we talking about Moriarty on Elementary or Red John on The Mentalist?
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:00 PM   #41
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Wait, are we talking about Moriarty on Elementary or Red John on The Mentalist?
Yeah, same thing. That's what I'm afraid this could turn into.

And yes, I am very familiar with Holmes and Moriarty - but the original characters were written over 100 years ago, and I don't think they translate well in modern times exactly the same way. For one thing, modern supervillains in TV and movies tend to be enormously wealthy and have huge resources at their disposal before we ever meet them, invariably leading to the ability to escape from captivity or never get caught in the first place or somehow trick the protagonist. That's not entertaining. It's just a deus ex machina in human form. Maybe mainstream America likes that kind of thing, but I don't.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:30 PM   #42
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:31 PM   #43
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Wrong again. The fact that Holmes is thinking about Moriarty and he gets mentioned in the story because of it is quite significant. It shows how important Moriarty is to the character development of Holmes.
Yeah, right.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:36 PM   #44
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I much prefer to see the hero challenged by someone who is his equal (or near equal). And I don't think I am in the minority in this. Having the hero always be the smartest or strongest tends to get boring. Also, the hero character development is usually more interesting when there is an ongoing nemesis.
Why? Because the only thing that can challenge someone is a big bad? Again, Holmes existed for dozens of stories without a big bad and he did fine.

Oh, right, mentions. They were a big challenge.

Holmes is flawed. He is more interesting when his flaws are of his own making. That, rather than just having a powerful adversary, is more imaginative and more interesting. That plus difficult challenges, cases.

It is a copout to blame everything on a single big bad. It is lazy. It is boring.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:49 PM   #45
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Why? Because the only thing that can challenge someone is a big bad?
If the hero is larger than life, then it takes a larger than life villain (rather than an ordinary villain) to really challenge the hero, to put him to the test. See what the hero is really capable of when he is operating at his absolute peak.

Obviously not every villain the hero encounters needs to be a super villain, but for an extraordinary hero to develop in an interesting way, he needs to occasionally be put in a situation where he is likely to fail, and we get to see how he handles such a situation. Especially for an extraordinary hero, such a situation is interesting to observe since it is so unusual for the hero to encounter a real challenge -- it may be the first time in the hero's life where things don't go easily for him.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:15 PM   #46
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If the hero is larger than life, then it takes a larger than life villain (rather than an ordinary villain) to really challenge the hero, to put him to the test. See what the hero is really capable of when he is operating at his absolute peak.
And yet Sherlock was successful without Moriarty. Besides, especially as CBS has portrayed him, he is fundamentally flawed. Larger than life does not mean perfect. Roseanne Barr is larger than life (not a fat joke), for example.

Many Sherlock portrayals are not very good. The Downey Jr movies reek. Elementary is well done and does not need a big bad. As neither did Doyle until he wanted to kill off Sherlock.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:26 PM   #47
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And yet Sherlock was successful without Moriarty.
You keep saying that. And yet Sherlock Holmes only achieved enduring success and immense popularity after Moriarty.

Holmes is certainly flawed. He has low points. But he also has a high gear that is higher than just about anyone else's. And he needs someone like Moriarty to get him to shift into that high gear.

Roseanne Barr is definitely not an extraordinary hero, which is what I meant by larger than life hero. She is hardly a hero at all. She is an ordinary Jane.

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Old 05-20-2013, 07:07 AM   #48
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While I hate to give any ammo to either side of this argument, and particularly one that wants more Moriarty, I have to say that the question of whether Moriarty was important in Doyle's time, or whether his part is responsible for why Holmes is still popular now, is beside the point. There's no question that people nowadays, particularly the millions who have heard of Holmes but not actually read Doyle, consider Moriarty to be a key part of the story. Tastes have changed since Doyle's time. So even if Doyle's time didn't need a nemesis, and even if the popularity of Holmes owes little or nothing to Moriarty, modern incarnations of Holmes are still almost certain to have and feature one, because of modern tastes.

For the record, I don't mind if they keep going with the pattern they have now, with standalone stories interrupted by the occasional arc, but I wouldn't mind if this ends up being the end of Moriarty's story, too. I was surprised to see how they handled it and glad of it; I expected an unsatisfying cliffhanger. I'm even more glad that they didn't throw Holmes back into the addiction pit; I don't recall ever seeing a story of a now-sober addict losing it and getting back into the addiction that didn't feel like a negative turn in the story to me.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:53 AM   #49
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You keep saying that. And yet Sherlock Holmes only achieved enduring success and immense popularity after Moriarty.
Sorry. That's a silly argument. Doyle also killed Holmes, so I guess that "proves" Holmes was immensely popular after he died. Or that the Brady Bunch was immensely popular in reruns, *after* Cousin Oliver joined the show, so Oliver is a reason for popularity. I see nothing in any history of Holmes that shows any drop off in interest prior to Moriarty showing up. And plenty of non-Moriarty stories told over and over again.

Moriarty was simply a method for Doyle to kill off Holmes. Authors get tired if their creations. Christie wanted to kill Poirot years before she did. She had him do himself in. So, Poirot was immensely popular after he killed himself. Hmmm.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:03 AM   #50
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I really need to start watching shows that john4200 doesn't watch just to see what a thread on this forum would be like in that scenario...

I really enjoyed the 2 hour finale. My interest in the show was fading fairly quickly before the last few episodes. They drew me back in pretty well, even if the big reveal wasn't supremely surprising.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:37 AM   #51
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I see nothing in any history of Holmes that shows any drop off in interest prior to Moriarty showing up.
The number of fans of Sherlock Holmes after Moriarty is immensely greater than the number of fans before Doyle wrote about Moriarty. You can claim that it would have been the same if Doyle never wrote about Moriarty, but that is idle speculation.

Almost all of the most popular subsequent Sherlock Holmes adaptations have Moriarty as an important part. It is blindingly obvious that Moriarty is a big part of the enduring success of Sherlock Holmes. If you cannot see that, then perhaps you are wearing blinders.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:45 PM   #52
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The number of fans of Sherlock Holmes after Moriarty is immensely greater than the number of fans before Doyle wrote about Moriarty. You can claim that it would have been the same if Doyle never wrote about Moriarty, but that is idle speculation.
The number of non Sherlock fans is immensely greater too. Your point?

By the way, why the hard on for Moriarty? You a relative or something. (Standard Internet forum joke complete)
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:30 PM   #53
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The number of non Sherlock fans is immensely greater too. Your point?
Moriarty is clearly important to the enduring popularity of the Sherlock Holmes stories, even though you have a strange enmity to the character. Did he kill your dog or something?

Anyway, all you have to do is look at this very show, where the discussion picked up whenever Moriarty was part of the episode.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:51 PM   #54
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Moriarty is clearly important to the enduring popularity of the Sherlock Holmes stories, even though you have a strange enmity to the character. Did he kill your dog or something?

Anyway, all you have to do is look at this very show, where the discussion picked up whenever Moriarty was part of the episode.
I disagree. While people (mis)quote Holme all the time and call people who analyze things "Sherlock" the name Moriarty comes up few times in casual conversation or jokes.

I have no issue with the character. I just don't want Elementary to turn into another comic book where they trot out the big bad over and over again. I love the way they handled the story but it is over. Move on to other stories. It seems you think that is impossible. And yet elementary gained a following and renewal without Moriarty except for mentions and a small trail earlier.

It is boring if a villain keeps resurfacing. What did the hero win if they come back over and over again. Usually tr stakes increase until someone has to die. If it is the hero, shows over.

She can come back but not all the time. Maybe use her like Hannibal Lector or very occasionally.

Just as the Master gets old on Doctor Who or even the Joker or Lex Luthor get old in Batman or Superman, Moriarty can get old quickly.

This is what our disagreement comes down to: I say Moriarty is not a necessity, you seem to think that he/she is needed all the time. I find that lazy and boring writing and thinking.

I'm done.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:00 PM   #55
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This is what our disagreement comes down to: I say Moriarty is not a necessity, you seem to think that he/she is needed all the time.
No, absolutely wrong. I never said that Moriarty is needed "all the time". My claims were that Moriarty is important to the enduring popularity of Sherlock Holmes, and to the character development of Holmes. You may disagree with the latter, but the former is self-evident -- all you have to do is look at the most popular Sherlock Holmes adaptations of the last several decades, and see that almost all of them have Moriarty as an important part. Obviously Moriarty does not have to appear in every minute of every Holmes story, but he (or she) does need to be part of the story, at least in the background, for Holmes to display his full potential.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:01 PM   #56
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No, absolutely wrong. I never said that Moriarty is needed "all the time". My claims were that Moriarty is important to the enduring popularity of Holmes, and to the character development of Holmes. You may disagree with the latter, but the former is self-evident -- all you have to do is look at the most popular Sherlock Holmes adaptations of the last several decades, and see that almost all of them have Moriarty as an important part. Obviously Moriarty does not have to appear in every minute of every Holmes story, but he (or she) does need to be part of the story, at least in the background, for Holmes to display his full potential.
Whatever. You got the last word. Congratulations.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:02 PM   #57
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Whatever. You got the last word. Congratulations.
Is getting the last word something that is important to you? I'm not sure why you brought it up all of a sudden, and then posted this nonsense.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:05 PM   #58
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Is getting the last word something that is important to you? I'm not sure why you brought it up all of a sudden, and then posted this nonsense.
Nope just following through on my promise that I'm done with the topic. As I posted before. Thought you should know I'm not ignoring you. You got to make the last point. That's all.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:09 PM   #59
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Speaking of archenemies....It's like everyone who's visited this thread will be able to say they were there when it first started.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:12 PM   #60
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Speaking of archenemies....It's like everyone who's visited this thread will be able to say they were there when it first started.
I don't consider Tony an enemy. Can't people have a lively debate where you're from?
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