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Old 05-16-2013, 10:23 PM   #1
Rob Helmerichs
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Elementary 5/16/13 "The Woman/Heroine"

I had it all figured out pretty early in the first hour. Irene was Moriarty; the big reveal would be the season cliffhanger; next season will be the big showdown between Sherlock and Moriarty.

Good thing they had a better idea!
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:02 AM   #2
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I do not know if they will go this way, but it is conceivable that Irene is not really Moriarty (I keep wanting to call her Margaery). If not, then an explanation is that the former CIA psychological pressure-tactics guy, Isaac Proctor, could have had about a year and a half to work on her and give her an alter-ego which thinks it is Moriarty. I hope that is not the way they go (because it is too implausible), but Isaac's involvement, considering his specialty, seems so coincidental otherwise.

And what is Sherlock without Moriarty as a nemesis? So either Moriarty has to escape or Irene is not really Moriarty. Hopefully the former.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:43 AM   #3
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And what is Sherlock without Moriarty as a nemesis?
Holmes in the books did very well without Moriarty. I hope Moriarty is gone, gone, gone in the TV series. I have little patience for continuing villains.


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Old 05-17-2013, 06:33 AM   #4
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Holmes in the books did very well without Moriarty. I hope Moriarty is gone, gone, gone in the TV series. I have little patience for continuing villains.
I think she'd be a great villain in prison. That is, not actually DOING anything, not actually appearing on the show, just...existing.

Then she can escape a few seasons from now when the show needs a jolt.
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(I keep wanting to call her Margaery)
To me, she'll always be Anne Boleyn.

Oddly, the thing that gave her away for me was the accent. It was just...OFF. Over-the-top in a non-specific way, and Natalie Dormer is one of the least over-the-top actors around. I figured it had to be fake, because it SOUNDED fake, and if they didn't want it to sound fake they would have either had her do a non-fake accent (which she can do, if I recall Captain America correctly) or hire somebody else to do it. I just kept hearing a fake accent, and in this day and age there's no excuse for that...unless it's supposed to be fake.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:02 AM   #5
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Holmes in the books did very well without Moriarty.
I don't think that is true. Although Doyle did not introduce Moriarty until the last several stories he wrote about Holmes, Doyle did a sort of ret-con to make Moriarty and his criminal empire a longtime concern of Holmes.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:13 AM   #6
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For being such a criminal mastermind, she sure was pretty stupid in letting herself get captured like that. A fake overdose and catching her when she comes to gloat seems a bit prosaic. It was a definite letdown.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:15 AM   #7
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For being such a criminal mastermind, she sure was pretty stupid in letting herself get captured like that. A fake overdose and catching her when she comes to gloat seems a bit prosaic. It was a definite letdown.
I didn't mind. The thing about Moriarty is that, although (s)he is a genius, (s)he is also arrogant. The trap Watson and Holmes set counted on that arrogance (and for this particular show, her feelings for Holmes).
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:02 PM   #8
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For being such a criminal mastermind, she sure was pretty stupid in letting herself get captured like that. A fake overdose and catching her when she comes to gloat seems a bit prosaic. It was a definite letdown.
Did I miss something? I thought Moriarty gave Holmes the address so he could find Irene. I don't remember anything suggesting that she is Moriarty.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:16 PM   #9
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Did I miss something? I thought Moriarty gave Holmes the address so he could find Irene. I don't remember anything suggesting that she is Moriarty.
Did you watch the second hour, or just the first? My system recorded it as one show, but perhaps you have two, "The Woman" and "Heroine", and you did not watch "Heroine"?
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:31 PM   #10
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Did I miss something? I thought Moriarty gave Holmes the address so he could find Irene. I don't remember anything suggesting that she is Moriarty.
Yep, you missed something
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:38 PM   #11
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Did you watch the second hour, or just the first? My system recorded it as one show, but perhaps you have two, "The Woman" and "Heroine", and you did not watch "Heroine"?
Maybe I'm on the wrong episode.
Holmes and Watson just walked into a room in a big mansion, and Holmes said "Irene. Irene."
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:52 PM   #12
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Maybe I'm on the wrong episode.
Holmes and Watson just walked into a room in a big mansion, and Holmes said "Irene. Irene."
Have you been asleep for a week, SleepyBob?
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:10 PM   #13
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Maybe I'm on the wrong episode.
Holmes and Watson just walked into a room in a big mansion, and Holmes said "Irene. Irene."
Yep, last week's episode...
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:43 PM   #14
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I didn't mind. The thing about Moriarty is that, although (s)he is a genius, (s)he is also arrogant. The trap Watson and Holmes set counted on that arrogance (and for this particular show, her feelings for Holmes).
Even Admiral Ackbar could see the potential for a trap here. But even if she didn't see the potential trap, going to a hospital room is just stupid. There is no easy way to exit and there was a definite possibility that even if it wasn't a trap that the police could be there given Sherlock's relationship with them.
Then when she saw that he was alone, it definitely should have alerted her to the potential trap. Don't create a character who is supposed to be super intelligent and have her act really really dumb at a critical moment like that.
I would have preferred a much more elegant trap where her arrogance was still her downfall. Faking an overdose and catching her when she visits the hospital seems more appropriate to catching a common street thug and even they would probably act a lot more suspicious of it being a trap.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:57 PM   #15
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... that the police could be there given Sherlock's relationship with them.
well there were police guards at his door, but she got rid of them somehow,
I didn't hear what she said though
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:20 PM   #16
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well there were police guards at his door, but she got rid of them somehow,
I didn't hear what she said though
I think she said he was detained somehow, giving the impression he wasn't hurt.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:32 PM   #17
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I think she said he was detained somehow, giving the impression he wasn't hurt.
I think the word was "Distracted". I just finished watching it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #18
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I think she'd be a great villain in prison. That is, not actually DOING anything, not actually appearing on the show, just...existing.

Then she can escape a few seasons from now when the show needs a jolt.

To me, she'll always be Anne Boleyn.

Oddly, the thing that gave her away for me was the accent. It was just...OFF. Over-the-top in a non-specific way, and Natalie Dormer is one of the least over-the-top actors around. I figured it had to be fake, because it SOUNDED fake, and if they didn't want it to sound fake they would have either had her do a non-fake accent (which she can do, if I recall Captain America correctly) or hire somebody else to do it. I just kept hearing a fake accent, and in this day and age there's no excuse for that...unless it's supposed to be fake.
What is the actress"s real accent?

Her American accent sounded off to me too. There was something hard about the sound of the words and it didn't sound natural. It didn't occur to me that it was an intentional plot device, though. I just thought it was a bad accent.

She's so interesting looking - very feline, somehow. I love her in GOT.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:44 PM   #19
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What is the actress"s real accent?
She's Irish, so none-of-the-above.

And as I said, I've heard her do American before without noticing anything, so I suspect that whatever she was doing here was intentional.
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:22 PM   #20
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I was totally caught off guard. I thought the big reveal would have his father as Moriarty.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:55 PM   #21
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Holmes in the books did very well without Moriarty. I hope Moriarty is gone, gone, gone in the TV series. I have little patience for continuing villains.

Mike
This. If you read the entire works, moriarity is not that important.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:59 PM   #22
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She's Irish, so none-of-the-above.

And as I said, I've heard her do American before without noticing anything, so I suspect that whatever she was doing here was intentional.
Reading is in Ireland? She is not Irish.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:39 PM   #23
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If you read the entire works, moriarity is not that important.
I've read most of what Doyle has written about Holmes, and Moriarty is certainly important. Holmes has one woman who ever interested him. And one villain who ever really challenged him. Other than Watson, those two are the most important people in Holmes' life.

Interesting that Elementary has combined them into one.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:39 PM   #24
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Reading is in Ireland? She is not Irish.
Oops, for some reason I always get Natalie Dormer and Sarah Bolger mixed up...which is weird, because they're not really similar at all.

I guess all of Henry VIII's wives look alike or something. And daughters. And stuff.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:44 AM   #25
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Even Admiral Ackbar could see the potential for a trap here. But even if she didn't see the potential trap, going to a hospital room is just stupid. There is no easy way to exit and there was a definite possibility that even if it wasn't a trap that the police could be there given Sherlock's relationship with them.
Then when she saw that he was alone, it definitely should have alerted her to the potential trap. Don't create a character who is supposed to be super intelligent and have her act really really dumb at a critical moment like that.
I would have preferred a much more elegant trap where her arrogance was still her downfall. Faking an overdose and catching her when she visits the hospital seems more appropriate to catching a common street thug and even they would probably act a lot more suspicious of it being a trap.
She is truly in love with him. She also could not pass up the opportunity to gloat.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:21 AM   #26
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I've read most of what Doyle has written about Holmes, and Moriarty is certainly important. Holmes has one woman who ever interested him. And one villain who ever really challenged him. Other than Watson, those two are the most important people in Holmes' life.

Interesting that Elementary has combined them into one.
When a character only appears in 2 of 60 stories, no matter how important the author says he was, he was not integral to Holmes success as an iconic character nor his commercial success. Holmes was popular without Moriarty. The character and the stories don't need him. I maintain he was relatively minor. And, personally, not my favorite aspect of Holmes. The twist of him actually being. Irene was cool but if the show becomes Holmes versus Irene, I won't like it as much. Repetitive villains are boring.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:27 AM   #27
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Oops, for some reason I always get Natalie Dormer and Sarah Bolger mixed up...which is weird, because they're not really similar at all.

I guess all of Henry VIII's wives look alike or something. And daughters. And stuff.
I understand. You don't know how many times I'm about to post something I am sure I know but look it up anyway to make sure I'm not confusing facts. Still get thinks bollocksed up sometimes.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:15 AM   #28
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When a character only appears in 2 of 60 stories, no matter how important the author says he was, he was not integral to Holmes success as an iconic character nor his commercial success.
Moriarty is also mentioned in five other stories, and Doyle did a ret-con to make Moriarty a longtime concern of Holmes. Although Sherlock Holmes stories sold well before Moriarty was mentioned, you are only speculating when you claim that the enduring popularity of Sherlock Holmes (one hundred years later) would have been the same without Moriarty. There are plenty of examples of stories selling well but fading into obscurity after ten years.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:44 AM   #29
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Moriarty is also mentioned in five other stories, and Doyle did a ret-con to make Moriarty a longtime concern of Holmes. Although Sherlock Holmes stories sold well before Moriarty was mentioned, you are only speculating when you claim that the enduring popularity of Sherlock Holmes (one hundred years later) would have been the same without Moriarty. There are plenty of examples of stories selling well but fading into obscurity after ten years.
I'm sure the most filmed (probably) Holmes story, the Hound of the Baskervilles would be much worse and less popular without Moriarty. Oops.

Mentioned doesn't sell books. And the ret con is just that. A ret con. Had nothing to do with the success or the quality of the stories.

You are claiming that one major and one minor story made the rest all popular when the two were at the end?

You have a right to your opinion. I don't agree with it.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #30
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You are claiming that one major and one minor story made the rest all popular when the two were at the end?
Again you have it wrong. Moriarty appeared in or was mentioned in 7 different Sherlock Holmes stories written by Doyle.

And yes, it does appear the Moriarty played a part in the enduring popularity of the Sherlock Holmes stories. Look at how many of the most popular subsequent adaptions of Sherlock Holmes have Moriarty as an important part of the story.
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