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Old 04-29-2013, 05:58 AM   #1
videobruce
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Hard drive constanly thrashing

Model 652;
The HDD is constantly "thrashing" around. This has been going on for weeks now. I decided to do a power cycle which initially solved the problem, but only for a week. Now it's back to thrashing.
I have a 2nd 652, but that is not doing this.
This is setup for OTA & CATV w/ no CC if that matters. It also does not have any desktop functions (access) in use. It has a WD 1TB internal drive (WD10EVVS) with no external drive connected.

This is not a noisy or bad hard drive. The thrashing is quite, it either has to be dead quiet in the room or I have to place my ear next to the deck to hear this. It sounds as it's doing a defrag process continuously or indexing (if that is what it is called). I used MFSLive boot CD to image the drive.

Any ideas what is going on and why a power cycle temporally fixed the problem?

Last edited by videobruce : 05-07-2013 at 12:09 PM. Reason: corrected HDD model number
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:16 AM   #2
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How do you know the drive is not going bad, while working now? Have you pulled and tested? Do you have this exact same drive in the other Tivo?
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:33 AM   #3
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It's a brand new drive. It's a different drive than the other 652 which came with a installed 2 TB drive.
If it was going bad, why would a power cycle stop it for a week or so? It's the actuator arm that is constantly active.

To be clear, it isn't the noise level, the drive is quiet, it's the apparent constant activity. No, I haven't tested it yet, I just discovered the thrashing is back after a week of silence.
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:42 AM   #4
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One thing I should add, just before the first power cycle a week ago, I noticed sluggish performance while navigating the menus and guide. It apparently froze when I tried entering the system info screen. The background animation continued, but it didn't accept any commands. I power cycled just after that which cleared the two problems.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
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I used MFSLive boot CD to image the drive.
Where did you get the image from?

Could it possibly be that you put an old version of firmware on the drive and it is goong through a succession of upgrades?

What number of software release are you on?

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Old 04-29-2013, 10:13 AM   #6
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From that DVR, it had the original drive in it.
V11.0k
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:12 PM   #7
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New drives go bad, happens all the time, drives can exhibit erratic behavior as they die. No idea why it would stop for a week, but if you are concerned I would pull and test. Up to you.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:20 PM   #8
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Try clearing out the "Recently Deleted" folder and keeping it clean.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:05 PM   #9
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your drive (WD10EZRX) appears to be an advanced format drive. Spec Sheet

The constant thrashing may indicate cluster straddling caused by misaligned partitions. You may need to re-align the partitions on your drive:

https://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers...erating-system
Quote:
Linux

Linux as an operating system is a combination of a kernel, user space utilities and customized packaging provided within the "distributions" such as Ubuntu, SuSE and Redhat.

The Linux kernel has had specific support for the alternate sector sizes and offsets used by WD Advanced Format disk drives since version 2.6.31. However, distributions based on Linux 2.6.34, the latest stable version of Linux, will provide the most thorough support. Advanced Format parameters are available in the sysfs file system from this kernel version onwards. Kernel versions older than 2.6.31 will not specifically detect Advanced Format Drives, but with proper alignment the system performance will be maintained. To ensure the best performance, it is important to:

Align partitions to the internal 4KB sector boundaries of the drive.
Make sure that data writes are aligned to 4KB sector boundaries.

Partitions are created by a number of possible utilities under Linux with "fdisk" and "parted" being typical command line tools. Parted is one of the better tools and from version 2.1 onwards it includes support for aligning Advanced Format drives. Fdisk and earlier versions of Parted won't automatically align partitions but can be used manually to set up the correct partition boundaries.

The Linux partition editor: parted, has an alignment option to ensure that Advanced Format drives are correctly configured from version 2.1:

-a alignment-type, --align alignment-type

valid alignment types are:

none Aligns to 512 byte sector boundaries.

cylinder Align partitions to cylinders.

minimal Use minimum alignment: 4KB on AF drives

optimal Use optimum alignment: 1MB boundaries

The default from parted 2.2 is to align to 1MB boundaries - optimal. Use minimal or optimal for Advanced Format drives. For example if your drive is sda:

parted -a optimal /dev/sda

will ensure that parted creates partitions on 1 MB boundaries.

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Old 04-29-2013, 04:17 PM   #10
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Is the "thrashing" youre talking about the seek noise a hard drive makes thats sounds like a crackling noise? Or are you talking about something different?
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:23 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by MeInDallas View Post
Is the "thrashing" youre talking about the seek noise a hard drive makes thats sounds like a crackling noise? Or are you talking about something different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
It's a brand new drive. It's a different drive than the other 652 which came with a installed 2 TB drive.
If it was going bad, why would a power cycle stop it for a week or so? It's the actuator arm that is constantly active.

To be clear, it isn't the noise level, the drive is quiet, it's the apparent constant activity. No, I haven't tested it yet, I just discovered the thrashing is back after a week of silence.
I think he has been quite clear about it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:52 PM   #12
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I asked him, not you.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBL View Post
your drive (WD10EZRX) appears to be an advanced format drive. Spec Sheet

The constant thrashing may indicate cluster straddling caused by misaligned partitions. You may need to re-align the partitions on your drive:

https://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers...erating-system

But does parted speak Apple Partition Map?
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:57 PM   #14
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I bought a used Humax DVD TiVo with a 1tig drive and it sounds like the arm is moving around most of the time. The TiVo also records shows in fine quality instead of basic and deletes shows even though there is a lot of room, so maybe I need to reload the software on it. I would have to learn how to do that though.
Maybe I will just put another hard drive from a working same model TiVo and make sure it works OK then.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:37 AM   #15
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But does parted speak Apple Partition Map?
I didn't mean to imply parted speaks Apple Partition Map, I don't know that. I was trying to suggest he examine the drive's partition map for mis-alignment as a potential cause for the drive's performance problems as detailed in the quoted article.

As the Western Digital article explains, a little further down,
Quote:
Make sure that all partitions start on a multiple of 8 sectors (8x 512B = 4KB) and that partition sizes are multiples of 8 sectors. Make sure that there is space left at the start of partitions as required. For example on a boot drive, do not start at sector 0 as there needs to be space for the boot code. Sector 64 is a good start point or even 2048 which would be a 1MB boundary.
Winmfs lets you look at the partition map of a TiVo drive and you can verify that the partitions are aligned properly.

For example, this is an actual TiVo drive (not advanced format) that, I believe, would be mis-aligned if it were an advanced format drive:
Code:
Partition Maps
 #:                  type name                            length base      ( size  )
  1   Apple_partition_map Apple                               63@1         (  31.5K)
  2                 Image Bootstrap 1                          1@268618469 ( 512.0 )
  3                 Image Kernel 1                          8192@268618470 (   4.0M)
  4                  Ext2 Root 1                          524288@268626662 ( 256.0M)
  5                 Image Bootstrap 2                          1@269150950 ( 512.0 )
  6                 Image Kernel 2                          8192@269150951 (   4.0M)
  7                  Ext2 Root 2                          524288@269159143 ( 256.0M)
  8                  Swap Linux swap                      262144@269683431 ( 128.0M)
  9                  Ext2 /var                            524288@269945575 ( 256.0M)
 10                   MFS MFS application region          589824@270469863 ( 288.0M)
 11                   MFS MFS media region             216747657@271649511 ( 103.4G)
 12                   MFS MFS application region 2        589824@271059687 ( 288.0M)
 13                   MFS MFS media region 2           268618405@64        ( 128.1G)

Total SA SD Hours: 259	Total DTV SD Hours: 226	 90 % Free
Software: 11.0k-01-2-648	Tivo Model: TCD648250B
And here's on that, I believe, is properly aligned:
Code:
Partition Maps
 #:                  type name                            length base      ( size  )
  1   Apple_partition_map Apple                               63@1         (  31.5K)
  2                 Image Bootstrap 1                          8@485364800 (   4.0K)
  3                 Image Kernel 1                          8192@485364808 (   4.0M)
  4                  Ext2 Root 1                          524288@485373000 ( 256.0M)
  5                 Image Bootstrap 2                          8@485897288 (   4.0K)
  6                 Image Kernel 2                          8192@485897296 (   4.0M)
  7                  Ext2 Root 2                          524288@485905488 ( 256.0M)
  8                  Swap Linux swap                      614400@486429776 ( 300.0M)
  9                  Ext2 /var                            524288@487044176 ( 256.0M)
 10                   MFS MFS application region          589824@487568464 ( 288.0M)
 11                   MFS MFS media region             216747008@268617792 ( 103.4G)
 12                   MFS Second MFS application region    589824@488158288 ( 288.0M)
 13                   MFS Second MFS media region      268617728@64        ( 128.1G)
 14                   MFS New MFS Application               4096@488748112 (   2.0M)
 15                   MFS New MFS Media               2147450880@488752208 (1024.0G)
 16                   MFS New MFS Media               1270826080@2636203088( 606.0G)

Total SA SD Hours: 2083	Total DTV SD Hours: 1818	100 % Free
Software: 11.0h-01-2-648	Tivo Model: TCD648250B

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Old 04-30-2013, 09:50 AM   #16
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New drives go bad, happens all the time, drives can exhibit erratic behavior as they die.
I understand. It's just a PITA to pull this out and diagnose it by a stab in the dark.
Quote:
Try clearing out the "Recently Deleted" folder and keeping it clean.
There aren't many recordings in there, the other deck has 3x as many (but a larger HDD).
Quote:
your drive (WD10EZRX) appears to be an advanced format drive.
Correct as most of the new drives are now. (new and improved?). I'm reasonable sure I defeated this since I was aware of the situation.
Quote:
Is the "thrashing" youre talking about the seek noise a hard drive makes thats sounds like a crackling noise?
Yes, but a very muted "crackling" if you will. It's the actuator arm swinging back and forth as it does during a defrag operation or with a fragmented drive as it is reading the fragments.

I have rechecked this sporadically and it isn't doing this 100% of the time. It does vary. It will settle down, then start uip again. Every time I also check the other deck (assuming it may be updates that are responsible. That one is quite.

Let me go back and retrace my steps when I imaged this from the original drive. I did use the MFSLive boot CD method, not WinMFS which I will now use in the future since I have read further and my concern of doing this within Windows was not valid.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:54 AM   #17
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I cleaned out the deleted folder, there were only 10 1 hour programs there. I deleted 6 more recordings that were duplicates from the other recorder, there are only five 1 hour programs that haven't been watch on the drive. BTW, I also have suggestions turned off if that matters.

Much of the above suggestions makes sense, but I'm trying to understand why a power cycle temporary fixed this. How about any of those kickstart functions before I pull this off the shelve and take a closer look at the drive?

Last edited by videobruce : 04-30-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:06 AM   #18
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I cleaned out the deleted folder, there were only 10 1 hour programs there. I deleted 6 more recordings that were duplicates from the other recorder, there are only five 1 hour programs that haven't been watch on the drive. BTW, I also have suggestions turned off if that matters.

Much of the above suggestions makes sense, but I'm trying to understand why a power cycle temporary fixed this. How about any of those kickstart functions before I pull this off the shelve and take a closer look at the drive?
Do you get the same temporary fix with a soft boot?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:37 AM   #19
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Never tried that, but I will next time if nothing changes.

Overall, it is no where near as bad as it was before the power cycle. I'll watch (listen) it closely the next day or so.
If this was a PC, that unresponsiveness that I reported when I was navigating through the menus seems to tell me the O/S and/or processor had some type of lockup.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:03 PM   #20
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Never tried that, but I will next time if nothing changes.

Overall, it is no where near as bad as it was before the power cycle. I'll watch (listen) it closely the next day or so.
If this was a PC, that unresponsiveness that I reported when I was navigating through the menus seems to tell me the O/S and/or processor had some type of lockup.
The only thing I have is a SWAG - The disk is/was full and fragmented. When it first starts up, the beginning of the live buffers are in contiguous (or close) sectors. As more is recorded, the sectors get further apart, thus the thrashing. With an empty "Recently Deleted", thus actual free space to deal with, a KS 58 might accomplish something. However, having never run one myself, I am not in a position to recommend it.

It being a Series 3, it's also possible that the power supply is causing problems. You might want to look at it and see if there are any bulging caps.

Personal experience: I have a THD whose hard drive started failing after 3 years and was replaced with a 1TB (fortunately, it didn't completely fail and I was able to use WinMFS to copy and expand). I try keep the "Recently Deleted" folder cleaned up as I have noticed that it gets sluggish and/or I get flakey recordings otherwise. Been running like that for almost 2 years with no real problems.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:58 AM   #21
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"SWAG"??

I did do a soft re-boot and it stopped the activity (for now) as it did with the power cycle.

This deck is less than two years old, so caps are not any issue.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:40 AM   #22
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"SWAG"??
SWAG = Scientific Wild A$$ Guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
I did do a soft re-boot and it stopped the activity (for now) as it did with the power cycle.

This deck is less than two years old, so caps are not any issue.
The 652 was last manufactured in 2008.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:40 AM   #23
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The label shows: "15-Dec-10" on this DVR and
"11-Nov-09" on the other, though the 9 could be a 8, but if it is, it's a lousy '8'. The date on the original 160GB drive is "10 Sept 2009"

.

Last edited by videobruce : 05-02-2013 at 08:03 AM. Reason: added HDD mfgr date
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:31 PM   #24
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Correct as most of the new drives are now [advanced format]. (new and improved?). I'm reasonable sure I defeated this since I was aware of the situation.
You cannot defeat it, you can only work around it. Since there are no tools that realign APM, you can't even work around it with a Tivo. I don't think it would cause THAT much chatter, though, since the double writes are occurring on the same or adjacent sectors. It would just be a performance hit.

Pull the drive and set the acoustic management to "quiet". Personally I think your drive and Tivo are just fine.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:01 PM   #25
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Pull the drive and set the acoustic management to "quiet". Personally I think your drive and Tivo are just fine.
Newer hard drive models from Western Digital no longer have AAM settings on them. The only drives left you can buy that have it are the WD20EURS and the WD10EURS. I think the Tivo is fine myself. I think what he is hearing is that little "extra" seek noise he is getting, because without AAM settings the drive is permanently stuck in "performance" mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...tic_management
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:03 PM   #26
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You cannot defeat it, you can only work around it. Since there are no tools that realign APM, you can't even work around it with a Tivo. I don't think it would cause THAT much chatter, though, since the double writes are occurring on the same or adjacent sectors. It would just be a performance hit.

Pull the drive and set the acoustic management to "quiet". Personally I think your drive and Tivo are just fine.
It's still worthwhile to check the caps on on the PS. The problem isn't how long it's been in operation, but the capacitors that were used. There were a lot of bad ones used in electronics during that time. See this Wiki article.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:11 PM   #27
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Newer hard drive models from Western Digital no longer have AAM settings on them. The only drives left you can buy that have it are the WD20EURS and the WD10EURS. I think the Tivo is fine myself. I think what he is hearing is that little "extra" seek noise he is getting, because without AAM settings the drive is permanently stuck in "performance" mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...tic_management
Oops, forgot WD and Seagate removed them due to patent issues.

If the hard drive is that noisy and it bothers him, he should just return it and get a different model.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:20 PM   #28
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I got one of the Premiere 4's and it came with one of the new WD5000AVDS models in it. I noticed the seek noise was a bit more. When I took it out and saw the model number it made sense. I replaced it with the WD20EURS and now its totally silent even with 4 streams thrown at it, while watching a 5th.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:50 AM   #29
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Do you get the same temporary fix with a soft boot?
Yes.

Quote:
Pull the drive and set the acoustic management to "quiet"........

Personally I think your drive and Tivo are just fine.
Newer hard drive models from Western Digital no longer have AAM settings on them. The only drives left you can buy that have it are the WD20EURS and the WD10EURS. I think the Tivo is fine myself. I think what he is hearing is that little "extra" seek noise he is getting, because without AAM settings the drive is permanently stuck in "performance" mode.
When I did the imaging, I attempted to set it to quite, but I received a message that it wasn't possible. I now see why. Nice of WD not to tell anyone.

Quote:
You cannot defeat it, you can only work around it. Since there are no tools that realign APM, you can't even work around it with a Tivo.
Isn't jumping pins 7 & 8 suppose to 'fix' this?

I suppose this won't help since imaging to a new HDD would wipe this reformatting out?;
http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/...FXbWFwbA%3D%3D

But would this solve the problem?;
http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/...X3YzX2xhcGw%3D
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Advanced format jumper setting WD.jpg (20.4 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by videobruce : 05-02-2013 at 08:09 AM. Reason: added attachment & responded to other replies
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:12 PM   #30
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Update; I listed the wrong drive model. I just got around opening up the case, the drive that is installed is a AV-GP model, not a Desktop-GP version.
WD10EVVS is what has been in the deck.
As far as the 'thrashing', it has been relatively quite, with only sort periods of time when it is active since the last re-boot (which was #3).

There is no jumper on that drive.
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