TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-11-2013, 10:53 PM   #1
te36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 22
Some disk setup/backup recommendations

After my last experience with a HD in the TivoHD becoming unusable, and getting help here on the forum, here is my set of recommendations how to deal with these type of issues in the future. While there is a lot of help on the forums, its about a lot of stuff, but not necessarily about only "how should i prepare myself for, and deal with disk failure". So maybe it would make sense to have another sticky thread about this. So here's what my insight is. Not all of it may even be correct or good recommendations. Thoughts / feedback welcome.

1. The problem is almost always the disk

The most common thing to fail in a Tivo is the hard disk. The only reason to look for some other error first is because it may be on your way to getting hold of the disk. Like opening up your Tivo, checking if theree is a bloated capacitor, and most likely there is not, so you directly continue to get to the disk.

2. Recovering a bad disk may likely not work but you can try

When a disk fails, you sometimes can recover from this without a backup, but do not bet on it. My disk failed, resulting in my Tivo hanging in the first welcome screen. I attached it to a linux PC and it was not recognized there either. The forum recommended me to try putting it in a freezer for a few hour and try again. This actually worked.

There is a linux tool called ddrescue that will copy a disk to another disk, skipping bad blocks. When the disk warms up again it may fail again. You free again, and restart ddrescue, it will continue where it left off. Do not try to use dd_rescue, it does not have this restart capability. You want to use SATA or USB3.0 to copy fast because once a disk has started to fail it can go downhill quickly.

In my case, ddrescue managed to copy the whole disk supposedly without any unreadable sector (freezing three times), but Tivo would not boot afterwards from the copy. Using WinMFS or MFSlife the error was MFS file system error. So i assume there was some error writing sectors that did mess up the file systems beyond recovery when the drive was in the Tivo.

3. Recognizing a bad disk may work or not

There are some easy signs of disks giving up, like pixelation, but you can not always expect to get such a warning. My disk just died some time without a visibile warning upfront. You could try to regularily run a SMART check on the drive, eg: via smartmontools from Linux, but on my drive that did not look really bad either. The drive was only running for 2 years, although it was 5 years old.

If you do use any SMART tools, its best to store the results regularily to be able to compare and recognize faster deterioration. It likely also makes sense to regularily run a selftest. But without some additional prep it is of course way to annoying to remove the drive regularily from the Tivo to do this.

4. Pull down recordings with Tivo Desktop or similar tools

The safest place for your recordings is not on a Tivo disk, but on another disk, NAS or PC. The Tivo disk is encrypted with a Tivo device specific key, so it can not be reused on another Tivo. And it can not be part of a raid or automated backup.

In addition, once you pull recordings off the Tivo you can re-encode the HD recordings to a lower bitrate without loosing a lot of quality. I for once think 720p at 1.5Mbps h264 is fine, but the MSOs usually have much higher bitrates because they do realtime encoding and that does not optimize fully for VBR in the content. And of course there is the 1080p quality expectations by customers.

The content you can not pull off the Tivo is the one the MSO has marked with do not copy bit in the stream. This differs quite a bit by MSO or even by market. Suposedly, the FTA channels should not have the bit set, and in my market it is not set for the digital starter package, so that is all i subscribe to. Especially because i often only get to watch series after a season is complete. The rest i get later from Hulu/Netflix. Ok, i have to shut up friends/colleagues to talk about the latest HBO season. So be it. Your mileage may vary, but if you intend to long-term store expensive premium content on your Tivo disk you should not only be worried about disk backup but also the life expectancy of that Tivo.

5. Do backup

With all the issues explained, the i think most important thing is to have a backup strategy for your Tivo drive. Here are some recommendations:

5.1 Your original drive.

Just keep the original drive running long enough until it is updated to the latest version of the Tivo, 11.0k on the Tivo3/HD supports hard disks of up to 2TB. Prior versions of the software only supported smaller disks. When you later copy/resize/upgrade your hard disk you can not go directly to 2TB unless the Tivo image has at least this release.

Try to avoid putting a lot of season passes or the like onto the original disk that will be invalid in a few years.

Once the drive is up to this state, pull it from the Tivo and make a backup. Its sufficient to make just the truncated backup (no recordings), because that is what you want to restore from anyhow.

Once you are done doing the backup, put the original drive in a safe location and never use it again except i emergencies. Like when you are not sure if you have messed up something or whether the Tivo is broken in HW. Then just check whether it still works with the original drive.

5.2 Your work drive

Get a 2TB drive. Do not bother with multiple/external drives drives. Chaining two drives together just makes backup and hard disk replacement so much more difficult.

Restore your original disk backup, resize to the full 2TB and use this drive as your production drive.

The drive expansion sticky thread explains everything about it
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=370784

5.3 Setup your tivo for backup

You want likely to do periodically do three type of maintenance actions on your operating drive:

A) Full backup when you have recordings on it that you want to survive the unexpected disk death (like from premium channels).

B) Truncated backups when your season passes have changed and you do not want to re-enter all new season passes manually.

C) SMART stats of the drive to get some idea whether to retire a drive proactively or start copying out more recordings that should survive drive death.

Physically unattaching/attaching (cables) the Tivo and opening it to get to the drive to do these operations is cumbersome and did stop me in the past to do these things regularly (eg: twice a year or so). I now set it up so that i do not have to do this anymore:

Code:
                             Internal Tivo
                               Hard-Disk
                                SATA-connector
                                 |
                                 | Original SATA cable
                                 |
            Primary             SATA-connector
            Motherboard         SATA-Coupler
            SATA-connector      SATA-connector
                    |            |
   eSATA PC Bracket |            | SATA-eSATA-cable from 2nd SATA connector
   cable, bracket   |            | on Tivo motherboard (for second disk)
   removed          |            |
                    |            |
   -----eSATA-connector2 ------eSATA-connector(original) ------ TIVO
            eSATAconnector      eSATAconnector                   Backplate
                    |             |
                    |             |
                    \-------------/


Basically, put a hole for a second eSATA connector into the back of the Tivo, beside the first one for the eSATA drive. buy a SATA coupler and a PC eSATA PC bracket and an eSATA cable. Cable up according to diagram. In result, the connection from the Tivo motherboard primary SATA connector to the internal hard disk is now being passed through the external eSATA cable as a looppack cable.

Now you can close the Tivo and only ever open it up again when you really need to replace a broken internal disk. But you do not need to open it for the following options:

a) connect the Tivo internal HD to an external PC to make full or truncated backup or look at SMART stats.

b) Connect a backup drive to the Tivo to run the Tivo from that drive.

This whole setup makes most sense when you have some PC, like a HTPC in eSATA vicinity of the Tivo so that you do not even have to move the Tivo. eSATA can be up to 2 meters long, so if you do have an HTPC in the same living room setup as the Tivo, this setup should allow you to minimize the effort for backup: No need to disconnect any cables, move or open the Tivo.

Except that i would recommend as stated above, to shut down the Tivo (unplug power cord, or better yet, switch in connector for power) when plugging/unplugging the eSATA cable. In my case i have successfully used 2 meter eSATA cables.

According to Wikipedia, eSATA connectors are designed for 5,000 matings, that should hopefully much longer than the life expectancy of the Tivo.

5.4 Backup strategy

I now have a second 2TB drive in an external eSATA case. I plan to regularly do a full backup to it: Switch off Tivo. Disconnect the eSATA loopback cable from connector2, connect to a PC. Switch on Tivo again. Given how the Tivo itself is now not connected to the disk it will just hang, but as there is no advanced logic to shut itself down, it will nicely continue to provide power to the internal disk. Once done, pull power, reconnect internal disk via loopback cable, reboot.

For full backup, i just use "pv" under linux on my HTPC sitting next to the Tivo:

pv -ptera /dev/sdb > /dev/sdc

where sdb is the original and sdc is the backup. "pv" shows you nicely the progress and ETA. Full backup of 2TB takes less than 6 hours.

5.5 Recovery strategy

If there is a problem with the internal drive, you can simply connect the backup drive to continue using the Tivo (without the latest recordings of course).

You can also just connect the Tivo built-in drive to a PC an diagnose it. As always, i recommend to only change the external eSATA cable when the Tivo is switched off.

When drives start to have bad sectors, writing back a full backup can help to extend life because the drives firmware will reallocate sectors. This is primarily useful when the bad sectors have hit the linux partitions and rendered the Tivo inoperable. While i did not have this case on a Tivo yet, i did have PC hard disks showing few bad sectors mid-life. Once the drive is old enough, its likely better to replace.

These days, the quiet drives only come up with a warrante up to 3 years, so a tivo might actually live much longer than the drive...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tivo.jpg (48.1 KB, 77 views)

Last edited by te36 : 04-12-2013 at 10:50 AM. Reason: integrated feedback
te36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:02 AM   #2
Arcady
Stargate Fan
 
Arcady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,894
Are
you
aware
that
you
are
not
using
a
type
writer
?
__________________
Roamio Pro (3TB)
Premiere Elite (2TB)
Premiere (320GB)
Two TiVo Minis

Left DirecTV 4/15/07. Left TWC 8/8/11. Now on Comcast Xfinity.
Arcady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:30 AM   #3
dlfl
Cranky old novice
 
dlfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Near Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 5,907
Nice write-up. A couple of factual corrections:
1. The latest Series 3 software version is 11.0k, not 10.0k

2. Many cable providers copy-protect a lot more than the premium channels. All Time-Warner systems protect all channels except copies of local broadcast stations.

The SATA "loop-back" mod is a clever idea, although I wonder about long term reliability with the two additional connector pairs in the circuit. For me at least the major hassle of accessing the TiVo drive isn't opening the case or connecting to the drive. It's getting the TiVo out from where it is, including disconnecting all the other cables that connect to it.

I think if a drive has reached the point where you're concerned about marking bad sectors, it's time for a new drive.

It would be good to reference at least the Drive Expansion sticky thread as a source of details for upgrading drives.
__________________

"It must be swell to be so perfect and odor-free" -- Del Griffith


VideoReDo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

pyTivo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dlfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 12:45 AM   #4
Arcady
Stargate Fan
 
Arcady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,894
1. TiVo dies.

2. Download whatever shows you missed from private tracker (not PB like idiots use.)

3. buy new TiVo.

4. repeat every 6 years this actually happens.
__________________
Roamio Pro (3TB)
Premiere Elite (2TB)
Premiere (320GB)
Two TiVo Minis

Left DirecTV 4/15/07. Left TWC 8/8/11. Now on Comcast Xfinity.
Arcady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:11 AM   #5
ThAbtO
TiVoholic by the bay
 
ThAbtO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,682
Another part is he forget about the power to the drive when you want to connect to a computer while the drive is still in the Tivo. Don't think the Tivo will stay powered without a HD connected.
__________________
Series 2 (PLS, sold)
TiVo HD 1TB (157 HD Hrs, PLS, "652")
Roamio! Oh, wait, Its Juliet!

~~~~~

The TiVo Apocalypse begins on Sat 2013 Feb 16 00:00 GMT!
ThAbtO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 03:48 AM   #6
Arcady
Stargate Fan
 
Arcady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThAbtO View Post
TiVo HD 1Tb
Where does one buy a one terabit hard drive?
__________________
Roamio Pro (3TB)
Premiere Elite (2TB)
Premiere (320GB)
Two TiVo Minis

Left DirecTV 4/15/07. Left TWC 8/8/11. Now on Comcast Xfinity.
Arcady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 10:53 AM   #7
te36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcady View Post
Are
you
aware
that
you
are
not
using
a
type
writer
?
THE LAST TYPEWRITER I USED DID NOT EVEN HAVE LOWER CASE, SO YES, I AM PRETTY SURE!
te36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 10:55 AM   #8
te36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfl View Post
Nice write-up. A couple of factual corrections:
1. The latest Series 3 software version is 11.0k, not 10.0k

2. Many cable providers copy-protect a lot more than the premium channels. All Time-Warner systems protect all channels except copies of local broadcast stations.

The SATA "loop-back" mod is a clever idea, although I wonder about long term reliability with the two additional connector pairs in the circuit. For me at least the major hassle of accessing the TiVo drive isn't opening the case or connecting to the drive. It's getting the TiVo out from where it is, including disconnecting all the other cables that connect to it.

I think if a drive has reached the point where you're concerned about marking bad sectors, it's time for a new drive.

It would be good to reference at least the Drive Expansion sticky thread as a source of details for upgrading drives.
Thanks. Clarified those points. eSATA is supposed to be for 5,000 matings, and yes, this is also about not moving the Tivo, made that more clear. I've unfortunately seen bad sectors much earlier in disk life than close to death though.
te36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 11:01 AM   #9
te36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThAbtO View Post
Another part is he forget about the power to the drive when you want to connect to a computer while the drive is still in the Tivo. Don't think the Tivo will stay powered without a HD connected.

It does.
te36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 11:18 AM   #10
te36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcady View Post
1. TiVo dies.

2. Download whatever shows you missed from private tracker (not PB like idiots use.)

3. buy new TiVo.

4. repeat every 6 years this actually happens.
If your HDs only fail every 6 years, you are lucky.

My TivoHD is on a lifetime carried over from 2001, and i regularly ask them what deal they can offer me for a Premiere. I just do not like their answer, it is worse then when changing from Series1 to HD. Thats why i like to keep it alive as long as possible.

First paying for all the content to the MSO and then having to resort to something that should be legal but is probably not (sharing it back) would just piss me off and stop subscribing to cable completely.
te36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |