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Old 03-22-2013, 06:31 PM   #31
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I think you underestimate the determined
I think you over estimate the number of "determined" TiVo users. I'm betting the number of people that attempt this is in the 100s, if that.

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They created the wrong product.
Perhaps from your perspective. But the vast majority of TiVo users are cable subscribers, so for them there is a simple upgrade option. And TiVo's main target for this is not existing customers looking for a cheap upgrade anyway. They're trying to attract new customers to the TiVo platform by offering a whole home solution comparable to their competitors. It's not quite there yet, but it's a first step in the right direction.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:43 PM   #32
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They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.
It wouldn't seem too difficult for TiVo to have the Mini query the account to see if there is a 4 tuner box on the account. (Say once every 30 days)
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:45 PM   #33
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It wouldn't seem too difficult for TiVo to have the Mini query the account to see if there is a 4 tuner box on the account. (Say once every 30 days)
That would require a software update... have you seen how long it takes Tivo to do something?
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:56 PM   #34
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I think you underestimate the determined and no .... I'm not confused. They created the wrong product. It's as simple as that. They should either make it work with 2 tuner boxes or create an app for Roku/Apple TV that works with the Stream.

They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.
TiVo created and are selling the product TiVo wanted, you act as if TiVo made a promise that they did not keep. The Mini is a $250 product with limitations, priced so that retailers can't get much mark up at $99, TiVo gets the rest of the money without any sharing with the retailers, OH! and if you don't want to put out the extra $150, just pay $6 /month to TiVo. People who purchased a TP with 2 tuners were never promised by TiVo that the Mini would work with this unit, so what the beef, don't like the Mini for any reason don't purchase it. People vote with their money, TiVo knows this and makes their business plans knowing this, if TiVo makes a bad business plan, only TiVo and their stockholders will be the ones to suffer.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:17 AM   #35
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so would we still “bitch” if TiVo charged a whole home DVR fee instead of charging for each Mini?

Trust me I hate being charged a fee to watch my “own” content - but TiVo is supplying me with a service (not having to rent an extra cable card, which not only saves me money but one less of problem to worry about as well) and not having to buy another tivo to go in my bedroom.

so the $7 a month isn’t out of line, I think Dish charges me that same amount for my Joey (which is the same as the mini) only thing is that they didn’t charge me for Joey upfront. That is the only rub I see.

Now do I buy a standard 4 or an XL4 hmmmmm
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:29 AM   #36
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Been away for a few days so a little late to this thread but I think it still needs my 2cents .

The Mini is part of TiVo's digital cable whole home DVR system, which is currently based around TiVo's 4 tuner digital cable only DVRs. If you do not want a TiVo digital cable only whole home DVR system then the Mini isn't designed for you and you should move on.

Regarding the price ($250 or $100+$6/mo) I think if you just look at the Mini as a stand alone device (which it is not) the price is high. The only way to really determine if the price is actually acceptable or not is to look at the price of TiVo's whole home digital cable system. Because I really believe value is a personal decision based on someone's personal circumstances I really don't have much of an opinion on if TiVo's whole home DVR system is a good value or not.

Just for the record I am an OTA air only user with an Android tablet so none of TiVo's recent devices (4 tuner DVRs, Stream, & Mini) are designed for me. But honestly with the cost of used Series 3 DVRs with lifetime so low and the deals we have had on the Premiere with lifetime I see no reason why an OTA person would chose a Mini over another DVR anyway. I do understand the desire of an OTA user to want a $100 solution for a secondary or little used TVs but I see no reason to expect TiVo to provide it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:35 AM   #37
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I do understand the desire of an OTA user to want a $100 solution for a secondary or little used TVs but I see no reason to expect TiVo to provide it.
All Tivo has to do is provide half of it. They provide the mechanism to get it to the Roku and then us OTA folks are happy.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:41 AM   #38
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Just for the record I am an OTA air only user with an Android tablet so none of TiVo's recent devices (4 tuner DVRs, Stream, & Mini) are designed for me. But honestly with the cost of used Series 3 DVRs with lifetime so low and the deals we have had on the Premiere with lifetime I see no reason why an OTA person would chose a Mini over another DVR anyway. I do understand the desire of an OTA user to want a $100 solution for a secondary or little used TVs but I see no reason to expect TiVo to provide it.
Based on TiVo's recent FCC waiver filing that indicates a future model with OTA support, I do think that TiVo see's the business case for continued support of OTA (and Android) users. I expect we will see support for both later this year.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:24 AM   #39
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I see no reason why an OTA person would chose a Mini over another DVR anyway.
  • Space saver -hide behind TV
  • Would not use quite as much power
  • No moving parts - so should run longer (no replacing HD)
  • Fee is a little less than a full Tivo

Why you wouldn't want to.
  • Won't work with current OTA Tivos
  • No support for Netflix and Amazon
  • Does not offer same flexibility as Roku - so you can't replace and have 1 box
  • High fee for what this product is

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:28 PM   #40
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They should either make it work with 2 tuner boxes or create an app for Roku/Apple TV that works with the Stream.

They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.
But that makes them no money. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why people are still complaining about a $250 device that has no competition.

Either get one or don't. I have four!
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:25 AM   #41
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But that makes them no money. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why people are still complaining about a $250 device that has no competition.

Either get one or don't. I have four!
You are correct, if TiVo had priced the unit at $250 flat there would almost no complaining about the price, if it did what you wanted and could afford the $250 you would purchase, but TiVo gave people the option of a monthly plan so the first month cost was $5.95 not $150, you saved $144 in that first month. People think that $5.95 is for some type of service, it is not, it somewhat like a car lease, saving you an upfront cost.
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Old 03-30-2013, 06:41 AM   #42
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You are correct, if TiVo had priced the unit at $250 flat there would almost no complaining about the price, if it did what you wanted and could afford the $250 you would purchase, but TiVo gave people the option of a monthly plan so the first month cost was $5.95 not $150, you saved $144 in that first month. People think that $5.95 is for some type of service, it is not, it somewhat like a car lease, saving you an upfront cost.
Unless someone doesn't know about the lifetime option when I hear people complaining about service fees - I hear a person who is just complaining about the price and doesn't want to do it directly, which is fine if someone thinks something cost to much it is just as valid opinion as the person who doesn't think it costs to much.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:14 AM   #43
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Tivo misdirected us 10 months ago by saying full 2-tuner support would come once the tuner allocation issue was resolved, and then never updated us on this until now. So the complaint is fair. They're at fault for screwing up those expectations.
Having 20+ years of marketing for technology companies, I doing point to this as misleading people on purpose, I view it as "yeah, we thought we could do that and it turned out that we couldn't." It is probably a case of them finding out that they could not deliver on what they thought.

As for their pricing, the real issue in my mind is that the mini competes with buying additional tivos, so when they look at how to price it they have to take into consideration the cannibalization of their own product lines. I am sure there were plenty of meetings where they looked at revenue models and realized that some portion of the revenue stream would be interrupted with a mini that did not have a revenue annuity attached to it.

You have to look at primary competition - cable operator delivered DVR options - if you want to see how they priced. Sure, roku, apple tv, htpc, etc have different pricing models, but they do not have the market share/momentum to be considered.

Without knowing the actual #'s, I would think that 80%+ of the competitive pressure in the market is cable DVRs, so you set your pricing model to go against that.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:29 AM   #44
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But the whole point is that they could do it but they don't want to because it would not be a good experience for the 2 tuner box.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:31 AM   #45
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But that makes them no money. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why people are still complaining about a $250 device that has no competition.

Either get one or don't. I have four!
Because for $250 the value proposition is just not there yet. When it is and I can have 4 tuner OTA box then I might have a different opinion.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:35 AM   #46
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If TiVo was smart, they would have taken on Roku a few years ago, opened up app development, and then slid their way into homes that way, with an upgrade available to work with their DVRs as an extender. But instead they have very, very slooooooowly gone top-down.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:24 AM   #47
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If TiVo was smart, they would have taken on Roku a few years ago, opened up app development, and then slid their way into homes that way, with an upgrade available to work with their DVRs as an extender. But instead they have very, very slooooooowly gone top-down.
There are lots of competitors in the IP/Internet streaming game. I have currently have 7 different devices with some IP/Internet streaming features attached to my home theater setup.
  1. Roku (have 2 of them)
  2. Google TV via Logitech Revue
  3. A netgear steaming device
  4. A western digital steaming device
  5. 3 HD TIVos
  6. A Panasonic blu-ray player
  7. A HTPC
For IP/Internet content my Premiere gets used the most and then the HTPC.

We have no way of knowing if it would have made any financial sense for TiVo to have put out a limited function device like a Roku or not, but I certainly think it is more important for TiVo to focus on their core business.

Frankly we are at a point where so many new devices have IP/Internet streaming added in I think most people will not see a need for a stand alone device like a Roku (or any of the others that I have).
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:53 PM   #48
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Frankly we are at a point where so many new devices have IP/Internet streaming added in I think most people will not see a need for a stand alone device like a Roku (or any of the others that I have).
I cannot agree with you more. Pretty much every new TV has all these features now.

I want TiVo to focus on what they do, DVR's.
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Old 03-30-2013, 06:56 PM   #49
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Having 20+ years of marketing for technology companies, I doing point to this as misleading people on purpose, I view it as "yeah, we thought we could do that and it turned out that we couldn't." It is probably a case of them finding out that they could not deliver on what they thought.
This is status quo for TiVo. Whatever happened to making the S3 OLED work with just one cable card?
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #50
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This is status quo for TiVo. Whatever happened to making the S3 OLED work with just one cable card?
The same thing that happened with them making the Mini work with a 2 tuner Premiere.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:00 AM   #51
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There are lots of competitors in the IP/Internet streaming game. I have currently have 7 different devices with some IP/Internet streaming features attached to my home theater setup.
  1. Roku (have 2 of them)
  2. Google TV via Logitech Revue
  3. A netgear steaming device
  4. A western digital steaming device
  5. 3 HD TIVos
  6. A Panasonic blu-ray player
  7. A HTPC
For IP/Internet content my Premiere gets used the most and then the HTPC.

We have no way of knowing if it would have made any financial sense for TiVo to have put out a limited function device like a Roku or not, but I certainly think it is more important for TiVo to focus on their core business.

Frankly we are at a point where so many new devices have IP/Internet streaming added in I think most people will not see a need for a stand alone device like a Roku (or any of the others that I have).
I think it would have been a good way for TiVo to put themselves out there and get more people onto their system to upsell DVRs to. However, they would have had to have gotten on their game and updated them quickly, not like their DVRs where there have been features that have taken years to get implemented. If TiVo had any decently competition in the DVR market, they would move an order of magnitude faster than they do.

Yeah, I think Roku's model is dying. It doesn't do anything unique. Apple TV is unique as it works with iTunes and Airplay. XBOX is unique as it plays XBOX games, but Roku doesn't do anything else that other boxes don't. It's only saving grace might be how horrible some of the BD players are at streaming stuff.

I have:

BD Player
Smart TV
Roku
Apple TV
XBOX
Wii
TiVo Premiere
HTPC

The Wii U is coming soon, and I can also connect laptops in via a front HDMI port.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:55 PM   #52
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And TiVo's main target for this is not existing customers looking for a cheap upgrade anyway. They're trying to attract new customers to the TiVo platform by offering a whole home solution comparable to their competitors. It's not quite there yet, but it's a first step in the right direction.
This was me. I was totally going to juump back on the Tivo Wagon once the Mini was going to be released. However, I put the breaks on once I heard dynamic tuner alocation, Netflix and Amazon Prime wasn't supported.

I had Tivo about 10yrs ago and it was great but I wanted more so I went the HTPC route. I have been very happy with the HTPC option but would rather not support a PC anymore.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:25 PM   #53
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The same thing that happened with them making the Mini work with a 2 tuner Premiere.
Let's make this a little game:

Probably the same thing that happened with
*completing the HD menus, or
*supporting KidZone in the HD menus, or
*[enter your favorite half-baked Tivo "feature"]


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Old 04-11-2013, 08:57 AM   #54
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Let's make this a little game:

Probably the same thing that happened with
*completing the HD menus, or
*supporting KidZone in the HD menus, or
*[enter your favorite half-baked Tivo "feature"]

Hehe. TiVo is like that friend that's really nice but you can't help give him shi* for his obvious shortcomings. You still love him but at one point you realize he's got obvious flaws that will never get fixed
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:34 PM   #55
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The mini seems to be modeled after a largely unsuccessful product. Most of the WMC extenders have been discontinued.

All that are left are the Xbox 360 and the Ceton Echo and the xbox 360's primary function isn't as an extender.

Tivo is clearly trying to minimize customers replacing a two tuner premiere with a mini.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:02 PM   #56
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The mini seems to be modeled after a largely unsuccessful product. Most of the WMC extenders have been discontinued.

All that are left are the Xbox 360 and the Ceton Echo and the xbox 360's primary function isn't as an extender.

Tivo is clearly trying to minimize customers replacing a two tuner premiere with a mini.
TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:05 PM   #57
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TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.
Not to mention the satellite Joey and Genie extenders.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:08 PM   #58
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TiVo Mini is modeled after the many many MSO "whole home" boxes. Those are current products that are selling well for the MSOs.
Agreed. TiVo has sold the TiVo Preview to cable MSOs since November 2011. Their operator partners like the Mini better because it has MoCA built-in and eliminates a $50 CableCARD from the deployment per box.

Just about every provider is moving to an IP distribution model like the Mini although currently the only IP solutions I'm aware of are Arris, DirecTV and Dish.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:24 PM   #59
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I think people need to stop trying to look at the Mini as a stand alone product, which it is not. Looking at it that way completely missing what TiVo is selling. Which is a whole home digital cable DVR system. I think that is what TiVo is trying to compete against.

My personal opinion is that TiVo is ahead of other whole home digital cable DVR systems but really needs to improve the software and get new DVR hardware out the door to stay there.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:36 PM   #60
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I'm still happy with my 6.95 a month Premiere. (or Premier if you can't actually read the name on the box of the thing)

The mini is a useless turd to me at this point.
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