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Old 04-05-2013, 01:14 PM   #211
moyekj
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Note that you are getting the 1080p24 encode, it's just converting it to 1080i30. It does the same sort of thing to the 720p24 encode, displaying it as 720p60.
Must be lower bit rate though since it holds at 1080i without reverting back to 720p.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:25 PM   #212
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Must be lower bit rate though since it holds at 1080i without reverting back to 720p.
No, it's not. If you have 720p and 1080i selected it will not use 720p except for the 720p24 encodes. The TiVo Premiere's player is one of only a couple in the devices that I have which will ramp up to the 1080p24 encode(s) even if you limit the output resolution to 720p, downconverting it for display; I think that the other one might be the Sony BDP-S390.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:31 PM   #213
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No, it's not. If you have 720p and 1080i selected it will not use 720p except for the 720p24 encodes. The TiVo Premiere's player is one of only a couple in the devices that I have which will ramp up to the 1080p24 encode(s) even if you limit the output resolution to 720p, downconverting it for display; I think that the other one might be the Sony BDP-S390.
That's not my experience. I have 720p & 1080i as valid outputs for my Premiere. When I 1st start playing a Netflix show it starts as 720p and then changes over to 1080i in about 30 seconds or so. When I had 720p, 1080i, 1080p as valid outputs for Premiere it would start at 720p and jump directly to 1080p. So my guess is without 1080p as a valid output I'm still getting 1080p encodes which TiVo is interlacing to 1080i, but for both cases I do get 720p initially.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #214
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So my guess is without 1080p as a valid output I'm still getting 1080p encodes which TiVo is interlacing to 1080i, but for both cases I do get 720p initially.
I haven't disputed that you don't get 720p initially. If you don't have 480i or 480p selected it's going to convert anything up to and including 720p to 720p60. What I was saying is that, if the TiVo is set up to output only 720p, it will still ramp up to receive the 1080p24 encodes, downconverting them to 720p60. You can see this by playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with burned in bit-rate/resolution info.

If your ISP is not set up for access to Netflix's private Open Connect CDN, you will only receive one 1080p24 video encode at 3850 Kbps. If your ISP can access Open Connect then 4300- and 5800 Kbps "Super HD" 1080p24 encodes will also be available.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:00 PM   #215
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I haven't disputed that you don't get 720p initially. If you don't have 480i or 480p selected it's going to convert anything up to and including 720p to 720p60. What I was saying is that, if the TiVo is set up to output only 720p, it will still ramp up to receive the 1080p24 encodes, downconverting them to 720p60. You can see this by playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with burned in bit-rate/resolution info.

If your ISP is not set up for access to Netflix's private Open Connect CDN, you will only receive one 1080p24 video encode at 3850 Kbps. If your ISP can access Open Connect then 4300- and 5800 Kbps "Super HD" 1080p24 encodes will also be available.
Gotcha. Yes I've used that test clip to confirm my ISP does have access to "Super HD". I think the problem is a lot of times my node can't sustain the highest bit rates for prolonged periods. Is there a table somewhere where it lists all the incremental resolutions and bit rates that are used? Seems to me like perhaps towards the higher end of encodings there aren't enough of them so any little glitch throws it down to much lower bit rate. Does that test clip step through all the encodings and bit rates that are generally available for most titles?
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:47 PM   #216
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Does that test clip step through all the encodings and bit rates that are generally available for most titles?
Actually on the TiVo it seems to have all of them. On other devices it drops 3 of the lowest bit-rate/resolution ones, the 235-, 384- and 750 Kbps video encodes (none of which show the burned-in info in TiVo's), leaving 560- (384x512), 1050- (480x640), 1750- (480x720), 2350-, 3000- (both 720x1280), 3800- (1080x1920), 4300- and 5800 Kbps (1080x1920 "Super HD") encodes. I think that'd be smart for them to drop those three low-end encoding for all titles and that might be where they're heading. If you don't have 560 Kbps for streaming then you should give it up (you should probably give it up if you don't have 2000 Kbps, what you'd need to 1750). I think that they figure that at the high end if you have enough bandwidth for any of 1080p encodes then you probably have much more than enough. I don't forsee them adding more 1080p encodes. If you have 1080p24 output enabled in your TiVo settings and bandwidth on your connections to TiVo is fluctuation such that it drops out of the lowest bit rate 1080p24 encode then you're screwed--I really don't think that they're going to add a 1080p24 encode at somewhere between the 3000 Kbps high 720p24 encode the 3850 Kbps low 1080p one. The solution is not to use TiVo's lame 1080p24 output setting--it's incompatible with Adaptive Bit-rate Streaming unless you know that available bandwidth on your connections to Netflix's servers will never drop below what's needed to stay ahead of the 3850 Kbps 1080p24 video encode (about 5 Mbps if you're using 5.1 channel DD+ audio).
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:06 PM   #217
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Actually on the TiVo it seems to have all of them. On other devices it drops 3 of the lowest bit-rate/resolution ones, the 235-, 384- and 750 Kbps video encodes (none of which show the burned-in info in TiVo's), leaving 560- (384x512), 1050- (480x640), 1750- (480x720), 2350-, 3000- (both 720x1280), 3800- (1080x1920), 4300- and 5800 Kbps (1080x1920 "Super HD") encodes. I think that'd be smart for them to drop those three low-end encoding for all titles and that might be where they're heading. If you don't have 560 Kbps for streaming then you should give it up (you should probably give it up if you don't have 2000 Kbps, what you'd need to 1750). I think that they figure that at the high end if you have enough bandwidth for any of 1080p encodes then you probably have much more than enough. I don't forsee them adding more 1080p encodes. If you have 1080p24 output enabled in your TiVo settings and bandwidth on your connections to TiVo is fluctuation such that it drops out of the lowest bit rate 1080p24 encode then you're screwed--I really don't think that they're going to add a 1080p24 encode at somewhere between the 3000 Kbps high 720p24 encode the 3850 Kbps low 1080p one. The solution is not to use TiVo's lame 1080p24 output setting--it's incompatible with Adaptive Bit-rate Streaming unless you know that available bandwidth on your connections to Netflix's servers will never drop below what's needed to stay ahead of the 3850 Kbps 1080p24 video encode (about 5 Mbps if you're using 5.1 channel DD+ audio).
My GFs 1.2 Mb/s DSL internet connection is rock solid on the TiVo. Granted it's only SD but it will play back the Netflix streaming without issues. I wish I could convince her to get FiOS, heck even Comcast, but she is adamant about not upgrading to a faster connection. Even though it would help her when she needs to connect to work.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:21 PM   #218
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My GFs 1.2 Mb/s DSL internet connection is rock solid on the TiVo.
So it's probably enough to get her the 1050 Kbps 480x640 video encodes (maybe only 750 Kbps video, when you count sound). If she enjoys that then perhaps I was being elitist by saying that you should probably give it up if you have less than 2 Mbps of bandwidth . I still say that if you don't have at least the 800 Kbps that you'd need for 560 Kbps video encode + 192 Kbps stereo sound, you should definitely forget about streaming. They can safely dump the two encodes lower than that, speeding up the ramp up some.

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I really don't think that they're going to add a 1080p24 encode at somewhere between the 3000 Kbps high 720p24 encode the 3850 Kbps low 1080p one.
It occurs to me that they already much improved that situation--used to be that the high 720p encode was at 3600 Kbps and the sole 1080p encode was 4800 Kbps; they've made it so that you can get 1080p at a 25% lower rate, 3850 Kbps.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:48 AM   #219
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So it's probably enough to get her the 1050 Kbps 480x640 video encodes (maybe only 750 Kbps video, when you count sound). If she enjoys that then perhaps I was being elitist by saying that you should probably give it up if you have less than 2 Mbps of bandwidth . I still say that if you don't have at least the 800 Kbps that you'd need for 560 Kbps video encode + 192 Kbps stereo sound, you should definitely forget about streaming. They can safely dump the two encodes lower than that, speeding up the ramp up some.
...............
I agree that she should have a faster internet connection. I have tried to convince her to get FiOS, but she never did. Even when they offered her FiOS with quick DSL speeds at a lower price she never got it.

I am just pleased that when I am at her house that I am still able to watch Netflix streaming on her slow DSL connection. I cannot do it with Amazon, Vudu, or Hulu+. But Netflix is still able to stream with that slow connection with no issues.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:48 AM   #220
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Time has spoken and yes turns out it was just a coincidence as last night there were many jumps from 1080p/24 to 720p. Got so bad I had to turn off 1080p/24 and then I got a consistent 1080i feed without interruption. Not a big deal as on a 42" TV I don't really see much difference between 1080p and 1080i anyway.
That's interesting because I see a huge difference between 1080i and it switching to 1080p both in fluidity and motion smoothness and richness of the color gamut, on my 32inch Sony EX500 with it's 120Hz refresh rate. I'm on Comcast with a 53Mbps connection.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:51 AM   #221
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No, it's not. If you have 720p and 1080i selected it will not use 720p except for the 720p24 encodes. The TiVo Premiere's player is one of only a couple in the devices that I have which will ramp up to the 1080p24 encode(s) even if you limit the output resolution to 720p, downconverting it for display; I think that the other one might be the Sony BDP-S390.
I wasn't aware there were 720p24 encodes let alone 720p encodes. Would you happen to know of any titles off the top of your head?
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:18 AM   #222
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My GFs 1.2 Mb/s DSL internet connection is rock solid on the TiVo. Granted it's only SD but it will play back the Netflix streaming without issues. I wish I could convince her to get FiOS, heck even Comcast, but she is adamant about not upgrading to a faster connection. Even though it would help her when she needs to connect to work.
Man that's grounds for dismissal in my book to outright refuse a connection that isn't DSL. I would just outright refuse to go over there.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:06 PM   #223
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I wasn't aware there were 720p24 encodes let alone 720p encodes. Would you happen to know of any titles off the top of your head?
All titles which are labelled "Available in HD" on Netflix's site and marked as HD in the browser of whatever player you're using have 720p encodes, one at 2350 Kbps and a second at 3000 Kbps. Almost all such titles have 1080p encodes, at 3850-, 4300- and 5800 Kbps; the latter two bit rates are referred to as "Super HD" and are only available if your ISP is set up for access to Netflix's private Open Connect Content Distribution Network (CDN). If they're available you'll see the "Super HD" logos on title descriptions in TiVo's player. Some small subset of titles are marked "Available in HD on your TV" on Netflix's website (as opposed to just "Available in HD"); those titles do not have 1080 res encodes and cannot be played in HD at all in the website player or the Win8 Netflix app. If you have Super HD access you can tell which these are because they'll be marked simply "HD" in your player's browser's descriptions with no "Super HD" logo. (The whole Super HD logo thing has been a little sketchy lately, showing up for some titles and not others which do have the Super HD encodes; hopefully they'll fix that). You can check whether your ISP has Open Connect access at this page; there'll be a line in big green letters beneath the picture of a television reading "Your Internet Provider is ready for Super HD!".

The vast majority of Netflix video is encoded at 24p, being the framerate of the sources that they're given by their content providers. Some small amount of older US television is 30p (though lots of that is 24p) and British television is 25p. I've come across the rare oddball title like Hugo which is encoded at 30p though it must have been shot at 24p and has some awful judder in panning scenes because of it (just watch the long tracking shot at the very beginning). If you want to determine the framerate of a title, play it in the website player, left-click the video to give it keyboard focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-D to bring up a diagnostic overlay; read the frame rate from the "Video Frames (rendered/dropped)" line.

Try playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with burned in display of bit-rate/resolution info.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:01 PM   #224
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All titles which are labelled "Available in HD" on Netflix's site and marked as HD in the browser of whatever player you're using have 720p encodes, one at 2350 Kbps and a second at 3000 Kbps. Almost all such titles have 1080p encodes, at 3850-, 4300- and 5800 Kbps; the latter two bit rates are referred to as "Super HD" and are only available if your ISP is set up for access to Netflix's private Open Connect Content Distribution Network (CDN). If they're available you'll see the "Super HD" logos on title descriptions in TiVo's player. Some small subset of titles are marked "Available in HD on your TV" on Netflix's website (as opposed to just "Available in HD"); those titles do not have 1080 res encodes and cannot be played in HD at all in the website player or the Win8 Netflix app. If you have Super HD access you can tell which these are because they'll be marked simply "HD" in your player's browser's descriptions with no "Super HD" logo. (The whole Super HD logo thing has been a little sketchy lately, showing up for some titles and not others which do have the Super HD encodes; hopefully they'll fix that). You can check whether your ISP has Open Connect access at this page; there'll be a line in big green letters beneath the picture of a television reading "Your Internet Provider is ready for Super HD!".

The vast majority of Netflix video is encoded at 24p, being the framerate of the sources that they're given by their content providers. Some small amount of older US television is 30p (though lots of that is 24p) and British television is 25p. I've come across the rare oddball title like Hugo which is encoded at 30p though it must have been shot at 24p and has some awful judder in panning scenes because of it (just watch the long tracking shot at the very beginning). If you want to determine the framerate of a title, play it in the website player, left-click the video to give it keyboard focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-D to bring up a diagnostic overlay; read the frame rate from the "Video Frames (rendered/dropped)" line.

Try playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with burned in display of bit-rate/resolution info.
On my TiVo Premiere I see the majority of the HD programming marked as "Super HD" even though I have Comcast and last I checked they aren't a Super HD partner. When I try playing that Example Short 23.976 video it plays for half a second and an error message appears on screen saying that it cannot connect to the Netflix service. I've not received this specific message on any other program but that one.

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Old 04-08-2013, 12:01 AM   #225
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On my TiVo Premiere I see the majority of the HD programming marked as "Super HD" even though I have Comcast and last I checked they aren't a Super HD partner. When I try playing that Example Short 23.976 video it plays for half a second and an error message appears on screen saying that it cannot connect to the Netflix service. I've not received this specific message on any other program but that one.
Hmmm. Apparently TiVo is one of the devices which shows those logos even if your ISP isn't set up for you to get the encodes. I know that Roku 3 is one. It may be that Netflix has decided to show them in all those standard UI players whether you can get the encodes or not. Since my provider, Cox, is set up for Open Connect I can no longer test what happens if you're not.

There was a bug with "Example Short" such that no one could play it if not using Open Connect servers. I know that it was briefly fixed; it may be broken again You could sign up for a free trial at Unblock-US.com; it'll let you sample Super HD and watch titles that are available on Netflix in other regions but not in the US.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:45 PM   #226
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Some small subset of titles are marked "Available in HD on your TV" on Netflix's website (as opposed to just "Available in HD"); those titles do not have 1080 res encodes and cannot be played in HD at all in the website player or the Win8 Netflix app.
BTW, I recently discovered that that's not entirely true. If HDYTV titles are old enough, they'll be available in 1080 res on embedded devices. Newer ones (last couple of years at least) will be 720p-only.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:12 AM   #227
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Hmmm. Apparently TiVo is one of the devices which shows those logos even if your ISP isn't set up for you to get the encodes. I know that Roku 3 is one. It may be that Netflix has decided to show them in all those standard UI players whether you can get the encodes or not. Since my provider, Cox, is set up for Open Connect I can no longer test what happens if you're not.

There was a bug with "Example Short" such that no one could play it if not using Open Connect servers. I know that it was briefly fixed; it make be broken again You could sign up for a free trial at Unblock-US.com; it'll let you sample Super HD and watch titles that are available on Netflix in other regions but not in the US.
I know that my PS3 and Windows 8 is dynamic regarding the SuperHD badge because when I was using an OpenConnect proxy they were there but when I went off the proxy they were gone.
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