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Old 03-14-2013, 02:23 PM   #331
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I've always suspected that what happened was that there was a master plan that got changed when Geller decided that she didn't want to continue after Season 7.

I'm also reminded of another forum I lurked at when Season 7 started airing, there was a group over there that hated Season 6 so much that when the first episode of Season 7 aired and didn't meet their expectations, they started writing their own "alternative Season 7" of Buffy.

And it was awful. I made it about six "episodes" in before I couldn't take it anymore.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:26 PM   #332
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Conversations with Dead People is episode 7 I think and that I recall as being one that is highly regarded. The next episode is when the potential slayer concept is introduced and that's when it all goes to pot.
{pedantic}
Actually the "potential slayer" concept was introduced with Kendra, as she had been trained from a little girl as she had been identified as being in line soon after birth.
{/pedantic}
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:36 PM   #333
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{pedantic}
Actually the "potential slayer" concept was introduced with Kendra, as she had been trained from a little girl as she had been identified as being in line soon after birth.
{/pedantic}
I brought that up earlier in the thread as something that was glossed over by the show and completely inconsistent with the context of the show so far and made no sense. I don't think they introduced it purposefully with this in mind. I think they made a mistake with Kendra then said, oh hey, now we can change the entire meaning of what it is to be a Slayer.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:47 PM   #334
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Alright. I actually slept on this before being willing to come in here and give these grades. But I just have to.

S07E04 Help - A
S07E05 Selfless - A

Well, I just loved these two episodes. The themes. The performances. How they fit into the world of Buffy. I want to hate season 7, and I'm pretty sure that's coming, but it really started off with some excellent work.

Help is a powerful reminder that you can't stop everything. It has a great mix of fun (the intro), campy (the high schoolers raising the demon), the serious (Willow visiting Tara's grave) and the poignant (Cassie). It's a real call-back episode to the first three seasons being so focused on the school. I really love Cassie the character and the actress who plays her. This one was a home run for me.

Selfless is such a well done episode cinematically, I love some of the cuts it makes, from a flashback of her singing to Anya against the wall seemingly dead with a sword in her chest. The filters on the scenes of Anya when she was Aud to make it look old was great. Anya singing again was great. The fight with Buffy was great. The ending was so fitting and it really did make me teary-eyed. Despite not liking that they ended up in this place (Xander and Anya broken up and Anya a demon), this episode was a fantastic tribute to Anya's character and the most important episode in her character arc.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:03 PM   #335
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S07E06 Him - B
S07E07 Conversations with Dead People - A
S07E08 Sleeper - C
S07E09 Never Leave Me - C
S07E10 Bring on the Night - D

Despite being a repeated plot device (and acknowledged with a flashback clip), I found Him to be quite entertaining. Especially Buffy and Spike fighting in the background as Wood worked at his desk.

Conversations with Dead People was great. Definitely the best episode of the season. Flipping between Buffy, Dawn, Willow and Andrew really showed how each character is looking for their place. It was especially touching when Andrew asked Jonathan if they'd really be able to join the Scooby gang.

And with that, we have hit the high point of the season.

Sleeper was ok, but I'm getting tired of crazy Spike. Same with Never Leave Me. Neither have a strong individual story and neither move the arc along significantly.

And then Bring on the Night brings on the suck. The first three sucky potentials show up. Just what we needed, more teenage girls. And Buffy fights and is pummeled by the uber vampire, because that's what we like, seeing our hero meet yet np another foe she cannot defeat (the Mayor, Adam, Glory, Willow). I hate seeing Buffy get beat to sh*t and her speech at the end isn't inspiring, it's just stupid.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:59 PM   #336
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S07E11 Showtime - C
S07E12 Potential - B

Showtime was meh. More of Buffy getting her butt kicked by the ubervamp and more potentials being whiny pains in the rear. At least Buffy finally killed the ubervamp at the end. The death match was marginally cool.

Potential is more of the same but gets bumped up to a B because of the very poignant moment between Xander and Dawn at the end that got me teary-eyed. That was great. Otherwise, I don't really understand why Dawn can't train anymore just because she's not a potential. Buffy was training her at the start of the season. Stupid, and makes Buffy look like the worst sister ever.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:51 PM   #337
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And, I'm done! I finished the second half of season 7 in a binge this weekend. Ostensibly I was supposed to be packing for my upcoming move while I was watching, but I watched 9 episodes today and packed 1/2 of 1 box.

The net is that I disliked season 7 less than I expected. In fact, I came close to almost liking it. I think the binge viewing helped tremendously. There was no time to dwell on the parts that sucked. There were also no expectations, I thought it was going to be terrible, so it had a pretty low bar to meet. It is still not the way I wish the season had gone, but I gotta watch what they made and I enjoyed myself.

S07E13 The Killer in Me - D
S07E14 First Date - C
S07E15 Get it Done - B
S07E16 Storyteller - B
S07E17 Lies My Parents Told Me - B
S07E18 Dirty Girls - C
S07E19 Empty Places - C
S07E20 Touched - C
S07E21 End of Days - B
S07E22 Chosen - A

I'm not sure I have enough to talk about each episode individually. I did not like Kennedy or care so much about when Willow turned into Warren - why did Amy do that to her? They never even resolved that.

I like Andrew's development and appreciated that he was added for comic relief.

I liked Buffy in this season so much more than in season 5 or 6, where she was dark, dour and dreary the whole time. Even with the weight of the world on her shoulders, she was quippy, brave, inspirational, and fun. Back to Buffy! Generally I liked anything that involved Buffy being right and having a triumph, which happened a couple times in the last two episodes.

I loved Angel showing up, providing some help, then leaving. Their final scene actually made me cry. I'm such a sap. Though I do get a little mad at Angel - he's had plenty of chances to be with Buffy and he always chooses to give it up so what right does he have to hope she still pines for him. Bah. Those two! They drive me crazy.

Wood being son of a slayer I had forgotten - but was an interesting story and a nice way to finally get rid of Spike's chain that the First could pull, though it happened too late in the season.

I thought the finale was fitting, as much as I hate the potential slayers, who annoyed me all season, and as much as I hate that the ubervamps, who Buffy could barely kill one in ten minutes, are being dusted left and right by a bunch of untrained newbie slayers, it just hit all the right notes for me: Angel, Spike's redemption, Faith fighting alongside, Dawn standing up for herself, the Scoobies once again fighting in the halls of Sunnydale High. Well, it just worked and I cried at the end.

I'm going to miss this show all over again! I might go back and just watch the set of episodes I rated A. Well, after I finish Angel.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:36 PM   #338
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Yeah, that was my reaction to S7 on the whole, especially after I re-watched it. The speechifying by Buffy was less bothersome, and I really thought they stuck the landing with the finale (besides the aforementioned sudden vulnerability on the part of the Uber-vamps).
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:49 PM   #339
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Angel season 4 wasn't great. Connor was terrible. Evil possessed Cordy was terrible. Jasmine was terrible. There wasn't a whole lot redeeming. I guess they did a good enough job with the cliffhangers to keep me watching and I do like Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne.

Season five so far is Bizarro Angel. I don't know what the writers were thinking.

I definitely think the peak of the show was mid season 2 through season 3. No way it's better than Buffy. Maybe better at that time than Buffy season 6. But not even close comparing the shows overall.

It is pretty fun to watch episodes of Mad Men after watching Vincent on Angel. The character Connor might have sucked, but he's a good actor!
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:23 AM   #340
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Angel season 4 wasn't great. Connor was terrible. Evil possessed Cordy was terrible. Jasmine was terrible. There wasn't a whole lot redeeming. I guess they did a good enough job with the cliffhangers to keep me watching and I do like Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne.

Season five so far is Bizarro Angel. I don't know what the writers were thinking.

I definitely think the peak of the show was mid season 2 through season 3. No way it's better than Buffy. Maybe better at that time than Buffy season 6. But not even close comparing the shows overall.

It is pretty fun to watch episodes of Mad Men after watching Vincent on Angel. The character Connor might have sucked, but he's a good actor!
Season 4 and 5 of Angel I think were the worst. Season 4-Cordy was uneven, and was not her usual self. Of course, we do find out why.

Season 5 of Angel, sans Cordy, was just awful. I thought Angel and his merry band had no place within Wolfram & Hart. The group lost whatever family vibe they once had, and without the sly wit of Cordelia, each character grew dour and selfish.

Season 5 was impossible to take seriously, with so many of the plots being just downright mind-numbingly stupid.

Still, I'd agree that seasons 2 & 3 were the series best. However, where I differ from your assessment, I feet Angel seasons 2 & 3 did a great job of giving the viewers a better story arc and more intriguing characters than Buffy could.

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Old 04-05-2013, 03:29 AM   #341
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I thought the finale was fitting, as much as I hate the potential slayers, who annoyed me all season, and as much as I hate that the ubervamps, who Buffy could barely kill one in ten minutes, are being dusted left and right by a bunch of untrained newbie slayers, it just hit all the right notes for me: Angel, Spike's redemption, Faith fighting alongside, Dawn standing up for herself, the Scoobies once again fighting in the halls of Sunnydale High. Well, it just worked and I cried at the end.
Just to note, they may be newbies, but not totally untrained. That was most of the point of gathering them at Buffy's house, so they COULD be trained, IIRC, and we even saw a bit of it.

The scene I loved was Buffy distributing the Slayer powers to all the potentials, and it showed even some that weren't there being empowered.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:51 AM   #342
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Season 4 and 5 of Angel I think were the worst. Season 4-Cordy was uneven, and was not her usual self. Of course, we do find out why.

Season 5 of Angel, sans Cordy, was just awful. I thought Angel and his merry band had no place within Wolfram & Hart. The group lost whatever family vibe they once had, and without the sly wit of Cordelia, each character grew dour and selfish.

Season 5 was impossible to take seriously, with so many of the plots being just downright mind-numbingly stupid.

Still, I'd agree that seasons 2 & 3 were the series best. However, where I differ from your assessment, I feet Angel seasons 2 & 3 did a great job of giving the viewers a better story arc and more intriguing characters than Buffy could.
The Cordy progression is definitely debatable in the Angel discussion. The icky Cordy/Connor storyline was definitely a low point, but Season 4 has some excellent parts.

Season 5 had its ups and downs due to the change in structure, but there are many memorable parts to the arc of each character. Dour and Selfish is a good way to put it, but of course what could they expect working for W&H?
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:11 PM   #343
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However, where I differ from your assessment, I feet Angel seasons 2 & 3 did a great job of giving the viewers a better story arc and more intriguing characters than Buffy could.
For me, nothing in Angel has ever had the emotional punch of anything in Buffy. I think a lot of it has to do with Buffy featuring younger characters, so you watched them through growing pains of life and the ups and downs of turning into adults, while on Angel, they were adult and though there was some character growth (mostly for Cordelia) there was nothing so dramatic.

And the things in Angel that are drama are not as relatable - boohoo, Angel the champion who is a vampire with a soul is so depressed he sleeps with his ex-girlfriend vampire to try and lose his soul. Well, it's an interesting story, but it's not emotionally stirring. In my opinion of course. (Compare with Buffy sleeping with her boyfriend, who turns into a monster after is a relatable metaphor.)

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The scene I loved was Buffy distributing the Slayer powers to all the potentials, and it showed even some that weren't there being empowered.
I actually had a pretty big problem with this. I didn't mind the one Slayer concept so much, but now they've essentially created a class of women that is better than the rest of women - just what gender relations needed. Now you don't just feel bad about being worse than men, now there's a whole new group of women to make you feel bad about yourself.

It would have been much more powerful to show that there is a seed of power in every woman and that they unleashed that for everyone.

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Dour and Selfish is a good way to put it, but of course what could they expect working for W&H?
I think that's where the misstep was - they never should have been at W&H. The hotel was such a great set and Angel Investigations had plenty more it could do. Turning it into a show about bureaucracy wasn't a good plan.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:53 PM   #344
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For me, nothing in Angel has ever had the emotional punch of anything in Buffy. I think a lot of it has to do with Buffy featuring younger characters, so you watched them through growing pains of life and the ups and downs of turning into adults, while on Angel, they were adult and though there was some character growth (mostly for Cordelia) there was nothing so dramatic.

And the things in Angel that are drama are not as relatable - boohoo, Angel the champion who is a vampire with a soul is so depressed he sleeps with his ex-girlfriend vampire to try and lose his soul. Well, it's an interesting story, but it's not emotionally stirring. In my opinion of course. (Compare with Buffy sleeping with her boyfriend, who turns into a monster after is a relatable metaphor.)
Huh. I guess that's where I find Angel far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special Lifetime movie?

But, to me, Angel wasn't about a vampire and his soul. The underlying theme, for ALL the characters, was redemption: each character was trying very hard to atone for things they did in the past. Angel looking to make up for his Angelus horror is the obvious example. But Cordy, and Gunn, and to lesser extents, Fred and Wesley, all are trying to do good and battle evil, because they realize they were selfish or nasty early in their lives.

Those attempts to atone for prior bad acts seem far more universal than the themes of Buffy, which seems to be more female romantic desire. But then, I wasn't a teenage girl.

I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But A Cautionary Tale..., and Why We Fight, and Smile Time all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.

Fred's transformation was idiotic. And Angel's assistant Eve was a horrible character: I felt the energy being drained out of every scene she was in. Godawful.

I think you are right that the Wolfram and Hart setting really hurt the series. The behavior of all the characters, once they shifted to the law firm, was unpleasant. Without the family vibe I began to lose interest. They changed from selfless champions to selfish bastards.

And I didn't want to invite selfish bastards into my home week after week.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:57 PM   #345
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There is no better character journey in the Buffy universe than that of Wesley Wyndham Price. The scoobies on Buffy pretty much (except for I guess Willow) stay the same throughout the 7 seasons. Some growth here, some regression there, but the same main qualities.

The profound change of Wesley during the baby Connor storyline was the one of the best things done in the Whedonverse.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:20 PM   #346
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Huh. I guess that's where I find Angel far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special Lifetime movie?
It probably helps that I'm a girl and the same age as the Scoobies so I identify more with their struggles. I also have not felt like I needed redemption, and I think that's less relatable than much of Buffy. But I respect your analysis and that it's a valid opinion.

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I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But A Cautionary Tale..., and Why We Fight, and Smile Time all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.
Oh man. Yeah. Smile Time might be the worst Buffyverse episode ever.

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I think you are right that the Wolfram and Hart setting really hurt the series. The behavior of all the characters, once they shifted to the law firm, was unpleasant. Without the family vibe I began to lose interest.
The characters are hollow and wrong this season. Angel has no passion. Gunn should not be a lawyer. Lorne is absent, often getting a throwaway line at the beginning of an episode to explain why he's gone the rest of the time. Amd when he is there, hes emotionless. Fred lost her charm. Wesley stayed the closest to himself but in isolation was dulled.

It felt like the budgets were cut this season as most character missed a whole or most of whole episode here and there.

Overall, it's just been disappointing. I have a few episodes left now.

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There is no better character journey in the Buffy universe than that of Wesley Wyndham Price. The scoobies on Buffy pretty much (except for I guess Willow) stay the same throughout the 7 seasons. Some growth here, some regression there, but the same main qualities.

The profound change of Wesley during the baby Connor storyline was the one of the best things done in the Whedonverse.
His transformation from Buffy season 3 to Ange season 2 is a little unbelievable, but once they established him as a fighter and leader, his development from season 2-4 is excellent.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:00 PM   #347
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Huh. I guess that's where I find Angel far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special Lifetime movie?

But, to me, Angel wasn't about a vampire and his soul. The underlying theme, for ALL the characters, was redemption: each character was trying very hard to atone for things they did in the past. Angel looking to make up for his Angelus horror is the obvious example. But Cordy, and Gunn, and to lesser extents, Fred and Wesley, all are trying to do good and battle evil, because they realize they were selfish or nasty early in their lives.

Those attempts to atone for prior bad acts seem far more universal than the themes of Buffy, which seems to be more female romantic desire. But then, I wasn't a teenage girl.
You were never a high school kid who at times thought that high school was hell? That was the central theme of Buffy for the first 3 years (except that was a literal theme and not just a metaphor). I'm a dude too, and was in my mid-20s when the show started, and even though I was well-liked enough in high school such that those years weren't all that traumatic for me, I still found the series plenty accessible. As the series went on, the theme transitioned to more of the struggle do what is right and what is hard versus the desire to live a "normal" life.

In fact, I always found Buffy far more emotionally appealing (and satisfying) than I did Angel, even though, as I've said several times, as a whole I preferred Angel's seasons 3 and 4 more than I did Buffy's seasons 6 and 7 when the two were airing consecutively.

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I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But A Cautionary Tale..., and Why We Fight, and Smile Time all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.
Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.

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Fred's transformation was idiotic.
Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:13 PM   #348
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Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).
Agree. I enjoyed both the Fred and the Illyria characters (as well as Amy Acker).
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:12 AM   #349
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The "Fred-to-Illyria" storyline was about the only way they could make Fred anymore special, I guess. After all, the shy girl who was very smart became a medical doctor, their go-to researcher, resident expert on all things physics & chemical & electronic, in fact the expert on pretty much everything. I chuckled more than once during the series, because Fred was a plot contrivance, much like the Star Trek technobabble. Not sure what to do? Have Fred discover or offer some explanation to advance the plot.

God-like Illyria was only step left to the drug-taking writers.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:15 AM   #350
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Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.
Oh I did, too. I laughed until I had tears streaming down my face.

But my laughter was as I cringed in embarrassment for the cast.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:14 PM   #351
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Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.



Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).
Oh, yes on both accounts.

So so funny - James Marsters was fantastic.

Another scene that always makes me laugh is this one.

I'm a huge Spike fan, though.

I think the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was one of the saddest moments in the Whedonverse.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:35 PM   #352
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It felt like the budgets were cut this season as most character missed a whole or most of whole episode here and there.
They were.
One condition for the fifth season renewal from the network was budget cuts so the show could be made more cheaply.

Another network demand was the addition of Spike so with that and the network telling them they had to cut budgets plays into why Cordelia went bye bye.

However, I still think that the end scene of Not Fade Away is awesome.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:11 PM   #353
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Episode 21 of season 5, "Power Play," should have been episode 7 or 8 I the season. It was a great set-up for a season long Big Bad. Missed opportunity.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:54 PM   #354
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I thought Not Fade Away was very good, an appropriate end for the show. I thought the build-up was good and the end scene was great. I partly was disappointed that the plan resulted in all of them splitting up so there was no grand fight with them all together. I teared up when Wesley died.

I didn't like for how they left Lorne's character. It contrasted interestingly with Xander, who was also not a fighter. They gave Xander power in his heart and in his normalness. On the other hand Lorne collapsed in the final season, drifting, without purpose and without use. Instead of anchoring the group as the heart, especially after Fred's death, he became murky. Lorne was a favorite character of mine, shame on the writers for taking all the joy from him.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:52 PM   #355
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I don't know why, but I started watching Buffy over the long weekend. I have so much stuff on my DVR and PC to watch, but instead I started watching a 16 year old show.

Oh yeah, I kinda remember why I started watching it. The Buffy movie was on like Cinemax and I watched it. I thought maybe I'd try the TV show to see how it compared.

I don't know that I've ever seen an episode of Buffy before this last weekend. I watched all of season 1 and maybe 10 episodes of season 2. So, I had a little Buffy marathon.

It is a fun show and I wish I had been watching it when it originally aired. There is some big time cheesiness to the show. Probably more to do with its age. The obvious stuntwoman for Buffy bothers me for some reason.
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:05 PM   #356
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I have not read the rest of this thread. But I started watching them over again a little while ago.

Make sure you watch Angel as well. But do so in the correct order. Story lines crossover on a semi regular basis. I think they stand on their own within each show but its even better when you can see both sides of the store arc as it was intended.


I'm using the list found here.
http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-...angel-post-tv/

Basically its the first 3 seasons of Buffy before Angel starts. Then it alternates between the shows till Buffy is over. The last season of Angel was after Buffy went off the air.

I'm currently a few eps in on Buffy season 5 / Angel season 2.

I remember they were both good when I watched the originals. Now I'm thinking Angel is the better show. But both are very good and worth watching. I can't wait for the last couple seasons of Angel. I remember it was some of the best stuff on TV at the time so I hope I'm remember it right.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:35 PM   #357
billypritchard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoffer View Post
I don't know why, but I started watching Buffy over the long weekend. I have so much stuff on my DVR and PC to watch, but instead I started watching a 16 year old show.

Oh yeah, I kinda remember why I started watching it. The Buffy movie was on like Cinemax and I watched it. I thought maybe I'd try the TV show to see how it compared.

I don't know that I've ever seen an episode of Buffy before this last weekend. I watched all of season 1 and maybe 10 episodes of season 2. So, I had a little Buffy marathon.

It is a fun show and I wish I had been watching it when it originally aired. There is some big time cheesiness to the show. Probably more to do with its age. The obvious stuntwoman for Buffy bothers me for some reason.
The stuntwoman will only bug you more as the show goes on. SMG gets thinner and thinner (Hollywood natch) but the stuntwoman stays the same.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:19 PM   #358
Hoffer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_s7 View Post
I have not read the rest of this thread. But I started watching them over again a little while ago.

Make sure you watch Angel as well. But do so in the correct order. Story lines crossover on a semi regular basis. I think they stand on their own within each show but its even better when you can see both sides of the store arc as it was intended.


I'm using the list found here.
http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-...angel-post-tv/

Basically its the first 3 seasons of Buffy before Angel starts. Then it alternates between the shows till Buffy is over. The last season of Angel was after Buffy went off the air.

I'm currently a few eps in on Buffy season 5 / Angel season 2.

I remember they were both good when I watched the originals. Now I'm thinking Angel is the better show. But both are very good and worth watching. I can't wait for the last couple seasons of Angel. I remember it was some of the best stuff on TV at the time so I hope I'm remember it right.
Great, I felt a little defeated that there were so many episodes of Buffy to watch. Made me feel like I'll never get around to watching the whole thing. Now I've got to mix 5 seasons of Angel in there as well!!!
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:04 PM   #359
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I liked Angel (the series) but I wouldn't worry about trying to watch it in addition to Buffy. There were a few cross-references and cross overs, but you won't be lost if you skip Angel and just stick with viewing Buffy.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #360
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Boy, I hit a wall last night. I watched a good episode with John Ritter. Then like the next 2 episodes were a 2 parter about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Such a bore. I would fast forward through Smallville during Clark and Lana stuff. I am not interested in that kind of stuff at all.
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