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Old 04-01-2013, 08:30 AM   #31
Rob Helmerichs
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The way I saw it, she cut the chain connecting the handcuffs. So one side of the handcuffs was still on her wrist while the other was still on the chair.
Which raises the question of how somebody can cut through handcuff-quality steel with a pliers, one-handed, without leverage.

I think it's just a case of the writer figuring she would disassemble the chair's arm, the propmaster not knowing that when he picked out the chair, and the director just throwing his hands up and making sure we couldn't see what was going on.

The writers are in LA, by the way...I wonder if they're on a schedule so tight there just isn't time to adapt the scripts to the sets, locations, and props that are available...this sort of thing happens fairly regularly on WD, where something that sounds good in isolation makes little sense in the execution. (Ironically, Robert Kirkman moved his family from Kentucky to LA to work on the show. Maybe he should have stayed! )
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:32 AM   #32
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She spent probably as much time staring at Milton as she did trying to get the wrench.

And again, I don't blame her. I blame idiot writers who sacrifice any sense whatsoever to create a little extra drama. I suspect by this point, Andrea welcomed death as an escape from the stupidity she was repeatedly forced to exhibit.
I was screaming at my TV and I'm one of those quiet movie watchers. Even Milton told her to hurry up and get out of the chair but they had the character spend a ridiculous amount of time reminiscing and staring at Milton. They seem to make some main characters so hated that the audience hope they die. T-Dog and Dale were notable exceptions. Also, Merle redeemed himself so well that I was sad that he bit it.
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For a long while, I thought Carl will turn into a worse version of Shane. But then he explained himself and I totally agreed with his logic
I so loved Carl this season. He told his father right. That guy from Tyreese's group was an idiot and needed Carl lessons. Never put a gun on a sociopath unless you plan to use it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:32 AM   #33
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The way I saw it, she cut the chain connecting the handcuffs. So one side of the handcuffs was still on her wrist while the other was still on the chair.
He could have left her a hacksaw and it would have been an impossibility. Didn't anyone watch Merle in S1? Or Mad Max in 1979?
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:12 AM   #34
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:18 AM   #35
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Which raises the question of how somebody can cut through handcuff-quality steel with a pliers, one-handed, without leverage.

I think it's just a case of the writer figuring she would disassemble the chair's arm, the propmaster not knowing that when he picked out the chair, and the director just throwing his hands up and making sure we couldn't see what was going on.

The writers are in LA, by the way...I wonder if they're on a schedule so tight there just isn't time to adapt the scripts to the sets, locations, and props that are available...this sort of thing happens fairly regularly on WD, where something that sounds good in isolation makes little sense in the execution. (Ironically, Robert Kirkman moved his family from Kentucky to LA to work on the show. Maybe he should have stayed! )
There were so many ways around it given the props they had. They just didn't care to spend an extra 5 minutes figuring it out in pre-production.

I love this show but it's very carelessly done from start to finish. We're not talking "revolution-bad", but it's up there!
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:21 AM   #36
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I really wanted the Governor character gone for good- all the human vs. human crap is not nearly as compelling to me as humans vs. zombie apocalypse.
And it irks me to no end that folks can pick off a zombie at 100 yards but cannot manage to hit a human at half that range and they don't even have to be accurate headshots. So many bullets flying during these battles but very few actually do any good.

I loved how ambiguous the Carl shooting was played- I've always thought he would turn out to be either a sociopath or a natural born leader, and the straddling of the two is marvelous.
My favorite character by far.
I don't think he can be held accountable for any missteps as his development as a person has been totally ignored by both his parents while they are off doing their own thing. One would think at least one fireside chat per day would be called for when you are responsible for raising a child under these circumstances. Especially since Lori's death- he should have been in talks with people daily to help him sort out what is going on inside him. Sure, someone had to do it, but a child?
That person's child?

Did Rick ever sit down and have a seriously deep discussion with him about that?
He dropped the ball and is to blame for putting everyone and everything else ahead of seeing to Carl's mental health. I mean, yeah, Rick has a lot on his plate, but caring for your child is not the thing you sacrifice when you get busy. Why bother to try and save the world if you can't be bothered to see that the young impressionable kids are raised adequately to carry on the human race? The children should be a priority. They are living in a very black and white world and need to be taught about gray. You don't expect kids to automatically know these things.
I can see why Carl might overcompensate and think he can do everything alone- he's been allowed to over and over. Herschel just stood there doing nothing, the kid was advancing, so Carl made a choice. And Herschel's telling of the tale conveniently left out "I just stood there with my thumb up my butt while Carl stepped up."
I hope he feels guilty for allowing a child to take control.
They let Carl go, they gave him a gun, and he shot an enemy- deal.
I would watch him and have those hard discussions but not look at him like he's pure evil.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:28 AM   #37
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Another issue I have in line with the last couple posts is that the show seems to have no sense that the characters are doing anything in the vast majority of the time when we're not watching. You'd think they all would have extensive conversations about everything, but there's no indication of that. You'd think they'd be planning things, but we only see that retroactively when they (the writers) need it to happen. And with so many of this show's flaws, they are endemic to television in general, but here they're taken to new levels, even in situations where they're plot-critical (I'm thinking of the Guv's magical pursuit of Andrea, but there are many other examples).

It has become far too common in modern American television for writers to be satisfied with coming up with really cool stuff, without considering how that really cool stuff fits together. And I think a lot of viewers just don't care (Battlestar is a good example of that), which is why they keep getting away with it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:48 AM   #38
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I just didn't understand our Hero's goal/plan for the prison raid. It looked to me that they weren't trying to shoot them, only scare them away....but then what's the point of that? If they did want to kill the townspeople, they had the perfect chance to setup boobytraps.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:53 AM   #39
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I just didn't understand our Hero's goal/plan for the prison raid. It looked to me that they weren't trying to shoot them, only scare them away....but then what's the point of that? If they did want to kill the townspeople, they had the perfect chance to setup boobytraps.
And they were so excited when the Townies ran...how does that help them? They escaped unscathed, now they know what you're up to...if the Guv didn't turn out to be a homicidal maniac willing to kill every able-bodied person in his community save two because he didn't approve of their attitude in the light of an unexpected setback, the Prisoners would have been screwed.

There's a new guy in charge of the show next year. I hope that's a good thing.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:55 AM   #40
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I think the writers wanted them to look like the good guys taking the higher path, but that's just moronic with gun fight. When someone is shooting at you you shoot them, center mass, until they stop shooting at you.

Oh and that reminds me.... the whole Guv losing it and wasting his own people.

Who in their right mind witnesses that, shugs their shoulders, and gets in the car with the insane ******* that just murdered 10-15 people?

Because if he is willing to drop a bunch of random people for no reason, what would make you think you are safe?

The second he started opening fire on his own people someone, ANYONE, should have shot him. But that would make too much sense, and close possible plot lines the writers want to use.

I'm barely hanging onto this SP.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:06 AM   #41
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Yeah, my thought in that scene was that Carl is one of the few people in the history of film and television to know that when you tell somebody who has a gun and is moving towards you to freeze and drop the gun, and they don't, the appropriate response isn't to wait for a while and hope they eventually comply.
As much as I still don't love Carl, I think the old guy was wrong. Carl told the guy to DROP the gun - not edge toward him, acting like he's going to hand him the gun. Drop the gun means drop the gun and nothing else. Kill or be killed.

As for Andrea and the damn wrench. Good grief - That was one of the stoopidest scenes ever. Sure, plenty of time to screw around. Just sit there with a stupid look on your face while time goes by, instead of dealing with the task at hand. I think they could have had smarter ways to have her die, or at least make it look more intelligently written. Adios, Andrea. You've outlived your usefullness. Of that I became glaringly certain at this point.

I wonder why the Governator went off the rails like that. Why would you kill all your men? god complex, I guess. I, too, wondered why those last two guys got in the vehicle with him. I suppose they figure there is no way to outrun his gun and if they ran, they'd definitely get it. Oh wait, that one gun ran out of ammo, right? But didn't he still have another one, or was that one out of ammo too?

The Gov must be made of rubber. Nobody seems to be able to get a shot on him - even the sharpshooters.

I wonder how the villagers felt about being brought to the prison. The digs certainly aren't so nice, but I suppose the sense of safety is a lot higher especially if they, somehow, knew what the gov did.

Re: Talking Dead (nothing spoily of course)

Spoiler:
Wow, I guess Norman Reedus wears his hair like that all the time. Cool having him and the guy who plays Tyreese there.

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Old 04-01-2013, 11:07 AM   #42
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Well, what about the idiot who - in the middle of the Gov shooting his own people - holds a gun to him and asks him oh so very politely to please stop.

Now THAT guy deserved to be shot in the head
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:10 AM   #43
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I wish this thread had less threadcrap stuff. As has been said in many threads, if you don't enjoy the show don't watch.

I still don't understand why the Guv would not go back to Woodbury where, presumably, all his belongings, weapons and ammo would be. Beyond that I have no problem with the dramatic license of what others call flaws.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:11 AM   #44
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First of all, STFU Andrea and get to work! When they cut back to that scene, and she was *still* talking talking talking and NOT getting the pliers --well, she got what she deserved. I think it would take an ordinary person about 30 second to fetch those pliers. If she had done that, and THEN spent all that other time trying to free herself (and still getting bit) that would have made so much more sense.

Second, why didn't they just lock all the Woodbury folks inside the prison and then take the Gov out when he's trapped like an animal? I kept saying to my g/f "no, don't go inside, they'll lock you in there!!!"... but no, they just wanted a stupid shootout and to run. Such bad writing.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:24 AM   #45
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And they were so excited when the Townies ran...how does that help them? They escaped unscathed, now they know what you're up to...if the Guv didn't turn out to be a homicidal maniac willing to kill every able-bodied person in his community save two because he didn't approve of their attitude in the light of an unexpected setback, the Prisoners would have been screwed.

There's a new guy in charge of the show next year. I hope that's a good thing.
Exactly. So you scare them off....now what? Do you really think they won't come back? What was the end game plan there?

I did see one booby trap with some spikes which I love the idea of but could have been done much better.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:25 AM   #46
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I wish this thread had less threadcrap stuff. As has been said in many threads, if you don't enjoy the show don't watch.

I still don't understand why the Guv would not go back to Woodbury where, presumably, all his belongings, weapons and ammo would be. Beyond that I have no problem with the dramatic license of what others call flaws.
How is you posting your critique any different than us posting ours?
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:30 AM   #47
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As much as I still don't love Carl, I think the old guy was wrong. Carl told the guy to DROP the gun - not edge toward him, acting like he's going to hand him the gun. Drop the gun means drop the gun and nothing else. Kill or be killed.[/spoiler]
What was the show where the bad guy said, "What are you gonna do, shoo..." BLAM! And down he goes with a hole in his head. (Justified? I know The Following had a similar scene recently.)

It was quite a jolt, but it shouldn't have been. TV has trained us with bad, suicidal habits.

Granted, those were both law enforcement people giving the instructions; a little kid might be different. But even if it's a little kid, if I'm surrendering to him and he's got a bead on me, I'm going to be very careful to follow his instructions.
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I wish this thread had less threadcrap stuff.
I wish this show had less showcrap stuff. It was great at the beginning, but ever since the first season it's been lurching down and up, but more generally down. I can't speak for anybody else, but I have stayed with it out of genre loyalty and the hope it can regain its footing. With a new showrunner next season, that hope remains alive.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:39 AM   #48
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When Andrea was fumbling with the pliers, I just went ahead and fast forwarded through that whole sequence, because I knew that no matter how long it took Milton to die and turn, it would take Andrea a few seconds more or less, so everything until that point was worthless.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:41 AM   #49
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I liked Carl in this episode quite a bit. The guy was handing over his gun. He wasn't asked to do so. He was asked to drop his gun.

He didn't comply. Carl done good.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #50
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What was the governor's line in the beginning?

You either kill or die, or die and then kill?

Whatever it was, that was a good line.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #51
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Re: Talking Dead (nothing spoily of course)

Spoiler:
Wow, I guess Norman Reedus wears his hair like that all the time. Cool having him and the guy who plays Tyreese there.
I challenge you to find more than 1 or 2 photos of him anywhere/any time with good looking hair- the man is cursed in that regard. Even back in his modeling days he didn't look any better.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:50 AM   #52
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I'm on Carl's side. The guy was told to DROP his weapon, not creep forward and hand it over. It seemed obvious that the guy saw Carl (a kid), Herschel (old man on crutches) and Beth (girl hiding behind Herschel) and thought he could over power them.. That guy could easily overpower Carl (sorry son, puberty hasn't set in yet). Carl did the appropriate thing given the circumstances, no better than Rick bringing the young and old of Woodbury to the prison.

Like it has been said before, if the characters actually talked to each other more often, Rick would hear Carl's side and probably accept it.

I think the prison makes a better set for a post apocalyptic community than woodbury. It has a lot of it's own contained infrastructure to make the place modern and nice. All they would need to get are the solar panels from Woodbury for electricity, and a pump to siphon water from the creek into the lines of the prison (after filtering and cleaning it) so they could maybe get the boilers going and have hot water (showers).. Then line the outer fence with vehicles (I've seen lots of them sitting on the sides of the road on this show) to cushion the fence against a super herd or another attack against people..

But then the "show" could get boring.

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I wish this thread had less threadcrap stuff. As has been said in many threads, if you don't enjoy the show don't watch.
I enjoy the show, it just frustrates me sometimes..
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:59 AM   #53
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I musta missed the threadcrapping, posting negative comments about a show is not all threadcrapping, it's about context and content.

Picking nits, picking it apart, pointing out the errors, yes. Threadcrapping no,
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:01 PM   #54
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How is you posting your critique any different than us posting ours?
Funny how this works with him.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:01 PM   #55
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What was the governor's line in the beginning?

You either kill or die, or die and then kill?

Whatever it was, that was a good line.
That was it...and it was a good line!
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:04 PM   #56
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I'm on Carl's side. The guy was told to DROP his weapon, not creep forward and hand it over...
True...but it was obvious (to Herschel) that it was just a scared kid who had 2 guns pointed at him.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:09 PM   #57
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True...but it was obvious (to Herschel) that it was just a scared kid who had 2 guns pointed at him.
Yeah, it was an ambiguous situation...he was probably trying to surrender, but he could have been (and was kind of acting like he was) trying to get the jump on them.

Rule 1 of surrendering: Do as you're told. That's the whole point of surrendering.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:17 PM   #58
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True...but it was obvious (to Herschel) that it was just a scared kid who had 2 guns pointed at him.
Yeah but - wouldn't it still make more sense to just comply by dropping the gun and not risk further pissing off the people with guns pointed at you?

Well, ok, he's a kid. I just kind of got that in my head. But still - there is no way you could trust that he didn't see what looked like an opportunity to take over what looked like a little kid, a one-legged old guy, and a meek girl. In this world you have to make decisions and you don't have the luxury of mulling over options. By this point, the kid probably should have known that.

I agree with many here that Carl explained it pretty well to his dad, in regard to the fact that his father didn't make the decisions he needed to make and that didn't pay off. But I still hate the thing where nobody actually tells the other what happened. I'd have said that I told him to freeze and drop the gun, and he kept coming at me with gun in hand. It doesn't take much to realize that that means I had to kill the guy becauase I had no idea what he was planning.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:19 PM   #59
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What was the governor's line in the beginning?

You either kill or die, or die and then kill?

Whatever it was, that was a good line.
I think it was "kill and then die, or die and then kill".
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:32 PM   #60
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I was expecting the guy to keep creeping towards Carl and then grab him and put a gun to his head making Herschel and Beth drop their guns like always happens in TV and movies. Carl actually shooting was a nice surprise for me.
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