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Old 03-28-2013, 09:36 PM   #241
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BTW, currently trying to get a new XL4 working. VZ can't get the cablecard to work with HBO and Cinemax. Brand new cablecard. Been down this road before. Spent 3.5 hours this evening trying with them - no success. Had this problem with a Premiere in November. They replaced the card 3 times, hit it several times. Rolled a truck. Nothing worked. Field tech finally called VZ again and got a "good" tech, who seemed to know what they were doing and fixed it within 15 minutes. This time, no luck yet.

So, don't underestimate the impact of this stuff either. Have a VZ reference number. They "say" they'll call back tomorrow.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:38 PM   #242
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Oh okay, 1 day and 20 hours out. I guess I didn't scroll far enough.

You have virtually no description, no detailed pictures, and no mention of any included remote/cables/accessories or original box. The one picture you do have shows the unit tossed into a dusty cabinet. To top it off, you have a stock 160GB hard drive.

If you had about 10 more pictures taken in a clean environment, listed what comes with the unit (or doesn't) and threw a 500GB+ drive in it, you'd get $300 in a few hours on eBay.
So, I need to upgrade the hard drive to sell it? I was quite clear as to what it was. I made no effort. Guys here made it seem like these "always" sell for $300. Sure doesn't seem to be that way.

What kind of "detailed" pics would you want to see? The box is there. I've sold a bunch of stuff on eBay (see my feedback) and never have had an issue. Oh well.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:42 PM   #243
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I sold a TiVo HD on ebay for $320 with a dead HDMI port.

You need pics of the front, top, sides, back, the remote/cables/acessories/box, and everything needs to be clean. People want to examine the item they are about to spend $300 on.

I'm a power seller on eBay. I do $1000 a month in sales or more on there. Pictures are everything.

Most people on here upgrade their hard drives, so that may be a factor. Even with a stock 160GB, you should still get $250 for this item if properly presented. But for an investment of $25-50 for a bigger drive, you can easily get $50-100 more.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:02 PM   #244
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I'm not going to upgrade the drive. I'm not spending the time, money and effort to do that just to sell it, and was of the impression that there was easy demand for these things. That was the impression from all kinds of posts. People did not specific that you needed to upgrade the drive to get that money. If that's the case, then the math needs to be modified. Maybe if I have time tomorrow I'll take a few more pics of it in a different location. I truly didn't spend much time or effort - just stuck it in a location where there was a free display to use to prove lifetime service.

We'll see what happens here. Seems to me that it's probable the my thoughts are being validated. Prices on these things are dropping. If I can't sell it for $250, I'll give it to somebody I know. Also, if I can't sell it for $250, then I think the idea that these things retain resale value that affects the entire "total cost" equation has been put in question. JMHO. Earlier in the post (and other posts) people were quite liberal in putting a $300+ resale tag on any Series 3 with lifetime.

Also, if "most people on here upgrade their hard drives" then that pretty much disqualifies their particular value proposition. Cracking a unit and swapping drives is simply not a "consumer friendly" process. I realize that the MSO stuff is also smaller drives in many cases, but for example, when they release larger capacity units you can swap for free - and you have not violated the warranty. Before anybody says you can't do that at no cost, yes you can. You can return your equipment at any time worst case. Or order a 2nd DVR. Then, reduce back to one and return the first one. The advantage of no up front investment. There are clear advantages that we should appreciate.

Right now I'm not appreciating cablecard hell with Verizon.

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Old 03-28-2013, 10:08 PM   #245
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I'm not going to upgrade the drive. I'm not spending the time, money and effort to do that just to sell it, and was of the impression that there was easy demand for these things. That was the impression from all kinds of posts. People did not specific that you needed to upgrade the drive to get that money. If that's the case, then the math needs to be modified.
You don't need to upgrade the drive. I sold a stock 160GB back in October for $300 plus shipping. If it hadn't been that long ago I could link the auction and prove it to you. If you look at sold listings for Tivo hd lifetime you'll see plenty of 160GB units that have sold in just the past 30 days.

The difference between your auction and mine though are substantial. I provided a full listing for the item including the actual model number (a quick search during the listing process provides all of these details). I also disconnected the device, wiped it down with a cloth and took GOOD photos of it with the original box and all accessories. I specified in the auction description the accurate condition of the unit and how I would ship it (in the original box, no double boxing, via UPS ground).

If spending an extra 30 minutes "doing it right" isn't worth it to you for your auction to sell for $50-$100 higher then your time is clearly much more valuable than mine.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:18 PM   #246
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Here's a screenshot of completed listings on ebay right now. The guy with a BROKEN unit got $197. Another guy with a 160GB unit got $261. These do sell.

This screenshot is not a hand-picked list. It is literally the beginning of the list when I searched for "TiVo HD Lifetime" and clicked on completed auctions.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:53 PM   #247
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1 day and 20 hours is awfully premature to even speculate about this, isn't it?
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:08 PM   #248
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True. I often put up items for seven days only to have the first bids in the last 30 seconds of the auction.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:41 AM   #249
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I can't find any lifetime TiVo HD boxes on eBay that end tomorrow and have a $300 buy-it-now price. Did you put the word "lifetime" in the title? If not, nobody will ever find it.
I sold a Series 3 (lifetime) at a fixed price of $359 in about two days (free S&H) I have sold a number of them and none have had a hard drive upgrade, but I had the original packing and provided a much used remote, these are for friends and I do clean them up, inside and outside, and use a stock E-Bay picture.
This is a link to one of my sales on 2/29/2013

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230926334941...84.m1587.l2649
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:50 AM   #250
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I sold my HD with the original hard drive for $300 last month no issue. It's all about pictures and descriptions. Mine didn't even include any manuals or the original box. You are selling to a stranger on the Internet. If your auction looks like ****, no one is going to bid for fun...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TiVo-HD-TCD6...-/290866198158

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Old 03-29-2013, 06:26 AM   #251
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Whenever I sell a TiVo or other item on eBay, I first look at the previously sold items. I see which ones sold for the most, and then I try to emulate what they did for their auctions. This has typically worked very well for me to maximize the price I get on my auctions.

So i'll typically double box, use the original packaging, sometimes do free shipping, use multiple pictures, put the item in multiple categories, and have a concise description. And start off with a low first bit price.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:30 AM   #252
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PCMag Review

PCMag's Joel Santiago posted his review of the TiVo Mini. I attempted to correct the record related to WiFi but his response clearly indicates that jes thinking of this from the perspective of a Roku or ATV. Anyway, I thought I would link the review here to see if anyone else might want to chime in.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417166,00.asp
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:47 AM   #253
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PCMag's Joel Santiago posted his review of the TiVo Mini. I attempted to correct the record related to WiFi but his response clearly indicates that jes thinking of this from the perspective of a Roku or ATV. Anyway, I thought I would link the review here to see if anyone else might want to chime in.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417166,00.asp
Consumers don't care or understand why Wi-Fi is a poor choice for accurate, reliable streaming of video. They just perceive Wi-Fi as being "better" because there are "fewer cords".

In the case of the Mini it is particularly comical because almost every location in the home that has a TV already has a coax connection that can be used to deploy the Mini.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:02 PM   #254
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Judging by all the posts about MoCA here, people understand it even less than why WiFi is a bad choice. But when mpeg4 transcoding shows up in the new boxes (hopefully), WiFi might be a good idea again. Then questions will be asked about why the Mini doesn't have it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:08 PM   #255
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Consumers don't care or understand why Wi-Fi is a poor choice for accurate, reliable streaming of video. They just perceive Wi-Fi as being "better" because there are "fewer cords".

In the case of the Mini it is particularly comical because almost every location in the home that has a TV already has a coax connection that can be used to deploy the Mini.
Absolutely not true!!!!!

One of the primary places I'd consider a mini is in my shop/garage! AT various times, I spend a good deal of time there, and am considering the mini for that location. Now, I have CAT5E there, but many people would not, and I certainly do not have RG6 there.

I actually thought the review was pretty accurate. IF you're a Tivo customer, and in particular a heavy Tivo advocate, the mini (outside of the serious defect of the tuner dedication) is really nice. However, I think it's also safe to say that it is not a game changer. Sales seem to prove out this assumption. For current Tivo subscribers who have, or will own, a 4 tuner, the mini is pretty nice. I'm pretty happy with its performance, and for my perspective I'm just unhappy with the lack of dynamic tuner allocation - and with the service fee, whether it be the monthly sub or the $150 lifetime. I think Tivo is simply out in left field with a catchers mitt with that decision.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:09 PM   #256
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Judging by all the posts about MoCA here, people understand it even less than why WiFi is a bad choice. But when mpeg4 transcoding shows up in the new boxes (hopefully), WiFi might be a good idea again. Then questions will be asked about why the Mini doesn't have it.
With that said, transcoding has its own set of issues associated with performance degradation and loss of video quality so I hope the Mini continues to operate with the native stream. I think newer wireless technologies like ac might be the step needed to resolve this issue and confusion once and for all.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:09 PM   #257
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Judging by all the posts about MoCA here, people understand it even less than why WiFi is a bad choice. But when mpeg4 transcoding shows up in the new boxes (hopefully), WiFi might be a good idea again. Then questions will be asked about why the Mini doesn't have it.
You're right. And if it's being compared to Roku, etc, then clearly MPEG2 also isn't important. Just because the mini "can" doesn't mean that consumers "want".
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:12 PM   #258
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Absolutely not true!!!!!

One of the primary places I'd consider a mini is in my shop/garage! AT various times, I spend a good deal of time there, and am considering the mini for that location. Now, I have CAT5E there, but many people would not, and I certainly do not have RG6 there.

I actually thought the review was pretty accurate. IF you're a Tivo customer, and in particular a heavy Tivo advocate, the mini (outside of the serious defect of the tuner dedication) is really nice. However, I think it's also safe to say that it is not a game changer. Sales seem to prove out this assumption. For current Tivo subscribers who have, or will own, a 4 tuner, the mini is pretty nice. I'm pretty happy with its performance, and for my perspective I'm just unhappy with the lack of dynamic tuner allocation - and with the service fee, whether it be the monthly sub or the $150 lifetime. I think Tivo is simply out in left field with a catchers mitt with that decision.
You sure like absolutes!

Can you clarify your source of the statement that sales estimates seem to prove out that assumption?
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:37 PM   #259
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You sure like absolutes!

Can you clarify your source of the statement that sales estimates seem to prove out that assumption?
Nope - I don't like absolutes. That's why I've constantly pushed back on the financial models that "prove" TiVo is always the lesser expensive.

In any case, I have no metric driven source for sales estimates other than what I have gotten as answers when talking to Tivo themselves, Weakknees, and Amazon when I was starting to think about ordering them - as well as watching volume here. It is a subjective opinion, which is why I used the term "seem to".

The PCMag review was pragmatic, and viewed not from the lens of a Tivo fanatic, but from the general market. It pointed to pros and cons, as seen through a product agnostic perspective. I've read it several times and while the "tone" may be argued, the content seems pretty darned accurate and unbiased.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:47 PM   #260
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Nope - I don't like absolutes. That's why I've constantly pushed back on the financial models that "prove" TiVo is always the lesser expensive.

In any case, I have no metric driven source for sales estimates other than what I have gotten as answers when talking to Tivo themselves, Weakknees, and Amazon when I was starting to think about ordering them - as well as watching volume here. It is a subjective opinion, which is why I used the term "seem to".

The PCMag review was pragmatic, and viewed not from the lens of a Tivo fanatic, but from the general market. It pointed to pros and cons, as seen through a product agnostic perspective. I've read it several times and while the "tone" may be argued, the content seems pretty darned accurate and unbiased.
Amazon isn't actually selling the Mini (3rd parties only) so that could impact sales at this point. It will be interesting to see if they pick it up. Amazon still doesn't sell the XL4. TiVo clearly soft-launched the product at this point. I expect we could see a bigger marketing push after tivo addresses some of the needed improvements and works through some of the early-adopter installation troubles.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:05 PM   #261
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The PCMag review was pragmatic, and viewed not from the lens of a Tivo fanatic, but from the general market. It pointed to pros and cons, as seen through a product agnostic perspective. I've read it several times and while the "tone" may be argued, the content seems pretty darned accurate and unbiased.
Well kind of. The review starts out correctly identifying that the Mini is not a stand alone product and that it is equivalent to a Dish Network Joey.

After that I consider the review is somewhat of a failure. They just stated it wasn't a stand alone product and then go on to review it like it is a stand alone product - which to me means the reviewer doesn't know what he is reviewing.

The Mini is part of a whole home digital cable DVR system. For the review to be useful to someone looking into a whole home DVR system the review needs to be reviewing the enter whole home system, not just one part of it that doesn't even function without the rest of the system.

I got the impression that they don't actually care about whole home DVR systems at all as they decided without actually reviewing the "whole system" that the Mini would do nothing to bring new subscribers to TiVo.

Frankly if someone had done a similar writeup about the Dish Network Joey and not reviewed it with the whole home Hopper DVR system everyone would have thought the review was a joke.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:07 PM   #262
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Frankly if someone had done a similar writeup about the Dish Network Joey and not reviewed it with the whole home Hopper DVR system everyone would have thought the review was a joke.
Well said and exactly on point!
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:11 PM   #263
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I felt differently. I thought it looked from the 'non-TiVo" perspective at general feature/function. It mentions the dedication of a tuner, the small amount of interaction, the fact that you can only see "that tuner" and not other XL4/P4 tuners, content across the devices, etc.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:20 PM   #264
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Well said and exactly on point!
+1.

I just went back and re-read all the reviews that are linked to the gdgt.com review.

Josh Goldman at Cnet provides the most balanced review which he has updated significantly since it was originally published. Ben (@bjdraw) wrote a good review as well. Dave's review is solid as well. Most/all of the remaining reviews reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of the product and incorrectly compare the Mini to a Roku or ATV.

JMHO...

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Old 03-29-2013, 01:41 PM   #265
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I felt differently. I thought it looked from the 'non-TiVo" perspective at general feature/function. It mentions the dedication of a tuner, the small amount of interaction, the fact that you can only see "that tuner" and not other XL4/P4 tuners, content across the devices, etc.
I am not looking at it form a TiVo point of view I am looking at it from what I think someone should be reviewing when they review a whole home DVR system point of view.

The reviewer just wanted to talk to much about things that are just not part of whole home DVR system at this time. It was clear he wants a wireless system and one that centers around IP/Internet Streaming services. Nothing wrong with that but how does that help anyone understand what is actually available and what the differences are in the various whole home DVR systems currently being offered?

In my opinion a good review provides details about the product being reviewed but also provides bench mark references comparing it to other competing products. This review did not do that because they really didn't want to talk about whole home DVR systems but appeared to be dreaming about some mystical product that doesn't exist.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:02 PM   #266
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Ben (@bjdraw) wrote a good review as well. I don't think his conclusion accurately reflects the Mini's value proposition to an existing or new TiVo user. I think the discussions Ben has had on his podcast reflect more of the value-prop of the Mini.
I'm really not sure what you are talking about here. I said there were a few missing pieces but TiVo owners wouldn't mind waiting for them. I'm not sure what would be more accurate.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:31 PM   #267
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I'm really not sure what you are talking about here. I said there were a few missing pieces but TiVo owners wouldn't mind waiting for them. I'm not sure what would be more accurate.
FWIW, I actually thought your review was also pretty accurate - though I do think it reflects a far more "Tivo Centric" view. I still think that the PCMag review is also accurate, as it is viewing it from a "general market" perspective.

I just don't think people adequately understand the difference.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:34 PM   #268
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I am not looking at it form a TiVo point of view I am looking at it from what I think someone should be reviewing when they review a whole home DVR system point of view.
I think that's the point here. We don't agree on what constitutes a "whole home" point of view. Yours is Tivo centric. PCMag is not. You're not wrong. Neither are they. Different viewpoints.

And that IS the point. 10 years ago, we wouldn't even be talking about Amazon streaming downloads, Roku, Hulu+. Do you really think those changes will not continue?
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:18 PM   #269
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I'm really not sure what you are talking about here. I said there were a few missing pieces but TiVo owners wouldn't mind waiting for them. I'm not sure what would be more accurate.
Actually I re-read your statement,

Quote:
Exactly how the whole-home functionality will look after a few updates will be something to watch out for, but as it stands now, the Mini falls short of the competition in regards to consistency. The Ceton Echo, Dish Joey and DirecTV RVU client all provide a more seamless whole-home DVR experience than the Mini. But none of them work with your TiVo, and for those who believe that there is no substitute, you can finally enjoy a genuine whole-home DVR experience while spending less than the price of another DVR.
I basically interpreted that you believe the Mini is inferior to Ceton's Echo, Dish's Joey, and DTV's RVU client. I can't really compare since I haven't used the other three and you have. I can say the Mini is an improvement over the majority of cable operator provided whole-home experiences.

Sorry for the confusion. I'm editing the above post for accuracy.
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:23 PM   #270
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I think that's the point here. We don't agree on what constitutes a "whole home" point of view. Yours is Tivo centric. PCMag is not. You're not wrong. Neither are they. Different viewpoints.
A review either actually reviews the product being offered or they don't. This review was as much or more about wanting a different product as reviewing the one being offered.

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And that IS the point. 10 years ago, we wouldn't even be talking about Amazon streaming downloads, Roku, Hulu+. Do you really think those changes will not continue?
Sorry but Rokus have nothing to do with digital cable whole home DVR systems, just like a blu-ray players has nothing to do with a digital cable whole home DVR system, neither are DVRs or are designed to provide digital cable throughout ones home.

Now if someone wants to write a review about different sources of video and includes a section on the hardware needed for each video source that is fine the hardware might even be a major factor in deciding which video source someone is going to use but that is not what this review was doing.

I get that many people want TiVo to build something they are not building that is fine so do I. But the reality is they are building DVRs with some addition features and the Mini is part of TiVos whole home digital cable DVR system not something else. Either someone wants a digital cable whole home DVR system or they do not, if they do they can evaluate if what TiVo is offering is the best for them or not.
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