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Old 03-23-2013, 03:55 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Davisadm View Post
You are right, MSOs are not a separate market.

And, unfortunately, the MSOs have a huge budget for advertising and successful in pushing their product. As I have stated before, TiVo has to increase their advertising, big time.
Now on that part, I totally disagree. Tivos problem has nothing whatsoever to do with advertising. It has everything to do with value proposition, cost to entry (up front cost), long term cost, feature/function, quality, service, simplicity, etc.

Tivo is either a "Premium" service, in which case Tivo needs to deliver significantly increased value, quality and features than the MSO offering, or they are a "Value" service, in which case they need to deliver equal or better features and quality at a direct competitive price point. The price point for the general public needs to be able to avoid large up front costs for it to be a large scale value business.

The problem is that years ago, Tivo was clearly a premium offering. Tivo offered features and functions simply not available to the consumer otherwise. Today, we can all argue (and agree) that the Tivo UI is far better than most of the MSO offerings. However, what we can NOT agree on is that the MSOs can't compete on feature/function. In fact, they've been doing "whole house" far longer than Tivo, at a lower cost, and with more simplicity.

So the question here is not whatsoever about advertisement. It's about figuring out what they want to be and focusing on that segment. Right now, they're in between both IMHO, and not leading either. Let's all be honest - it's way harder today to describe exactly why Tivo is better than what Comcast offered than it was in 2005. I'm (still) a Tivo subscriber, so I personally value some of what Tivo delivers. But this board is hardly representative of the general public, as evidenced by the market results compared to what we see here. Beyond that, the advent of Hulu+, Roku, built in streaming capability into PS3, Xbox, Blueray and smart TVs have all in addition intruded into the value proposition of Tivo. And the more IP based content there starts to be, the argument gets more difficult. It's a tough market to play in right now - certainly not easy for Tivo. That's exactly why if you're looking for "direct retail competitors" it's hard to define one. Tivos competition are the MSOs, Roku, etc.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:37 PM   #152
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@wmhjr
I couldn't agree more with your entire post. I think the premium market is where they belong, but you're absolutely correct - they really need to add more services to justify the higher cost. I actually left Tivo about 2 1/2 years ago because I wanted a whole-house solution. I ended up going with windows media center (which was light years ahead in many respects) and am still happily using it now. However, it's effectively an end-of-life product so I try to keep an ear to the wind to see what my next step might be once I'm done with WMC. It's great to see Tivo trying to do the whole-house thing but it's just amazing how slowly they move. Hopefully the evolve the Mini rapidly.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:45 PM   #153
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Now on that part, I totally disagree. Tivos problem has nothing whatsoever to do with advertising. It has everything to do with value proposition, cost to entry (up front cost), long term cost, feature/function, quality, service, simplicity, etc.

Tivo is either a "Premium" service, in which case Tivo needs to deliver significantly increased value, quality and features than the MSO offering, or they are a "Value" service, in which case they need to deliver equal or better features and quality at a direct competitive price point. The price point for the general public needs to be able to avoid large up front costs for it to be a large scale value business.

The problem is that years ago, Tivo was clearly a premium offering. Tivo offered features and functions simply not available to the consumer otherwise. Today, we can all argue (and agree) that the Tivo UI is far better than most of the MSO offerings. However, what we can NOT agree on is that the MSOs can't compete on feature/function. In fact, they've been doing "whole house" far longer than Tivo, at a lower cost, and with more simplicity.

So the question here is not whatsoever about advertisement. It's about figuring out what they want to be and focusing on that segment. Right now, they're in between both IMHO, and not leading either. Let's all be honest - it's way harder today to describe exactly why Tivo is better than what Comcast offered than it was in 2005. I'm (still) a Tivo subscriber, so I personally value some of what Tivo delivers. But this board is hardly representative of the general public, as evidenced by the market results compared to what we see here. Beyond that, the advent of Hulu+, Roku, built in streaming capability into PS3, Xbox, Blueray and smart TVs have all in addition intruded into the value proposition of Tivo. And the more IP based content there starts to be, the argument gets more difficult. It's a tough market to play in right now - certainly not easy for Tivo. That's exactly why if you're looking for "direct retail competitors" it's hard to define one. Tivos competition are the MSOs, Roku, etc.
Unless you can point to a superior cable whole home system being provided by the MSOs then TiVo is still a Premium solution. Also unless you think the data about cost posted in a thread a few inches away from this is incorrect then TiVo is cost completive and in many cases a value leader in providing a whole home DVR solution. So we have a Premium product that is either cost completive or cheaper than the MSOs inferior alternatives that isn't selling and you don't think marketing is a problem? Really?

I live in a TWC area and have priced out their so called whole home system for friends and TiVo is flat out cheaper unless you are thick headed enough to think you are only going to watch TV for less than 2 years and TiVo's DVRs are light years ahead of what TWC is offering.

I do agree that TiVo needs to significantly improve their IP/Internet streaming options but what does the TWC or any other MSO's whole home solution offer? Answer Nothing.

Where TiVo does fail is in the simplicity area. Until the FCC grows a pair and mandates a simple software solution having to use cable cards and possibly tuning adapters is going to increase complexity and certainly turn off many potential buyers. Tivo is also never going to be able to actually rent you a DVR that includes installation and maintenance, so stand alone TiVos will never be a solution for people that want that. Both of the above are reasons why it is so important for TiVo to partner with MSOs and get them to rent their customers TiVo DVRs.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:44 PM   #154
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Unless you can point to a superior cable whole home system being provided by the MSOs then TiVo is still a Premium solution. Also unless you think the data about cost posted in a thread a few inches away from this is incorrect then TiVo is cost completive and in many cases a value leader in providing a whole home DVR solution. So we have a Premium product that is either cost completive or cheaper than the MSOs inferior alternatives that isn't selling and you don't think marketing is a problem? Really?

I live in a TWC area and have priced out their so called whole home system for friends and TiVo is flat out cheaper unless you are thick headed enough to think you are only going to watch TV for less than 2 years and TiVo's DVRs are light years ahead of what TWC is offering.

I do agree that TiVo needs to significantly improve their IP/Internet streaming options but what does the TWC or any other MSO's whole home solution offer? Answer Nothing.

Where TiVo does fail is in the simplicity area. Until the FCC grows a pair and mandates a simple software solution having to use cable cards and possibly tuning adapters is going to increase complexity and certainly turn off many potential buyers. Tivo is also never going to be able to actually rent you a DVR that includes installation and maintenance, so stand alone TiVos will never be a solution for people that want that. Both of the above are reasons why it is so important for TiVo to partner with MSOs and get them to rent their customers TiVo DVRs.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts.

First of all, you're making the assumption that people are willing to spend their money up front (more than $1000) in order to make those numbers works where Tivo is even remotely competitive from a price perspective. If you don't do lifetime and you don't get decent resale, then the Tivo math just plain does not work. Both of those are big ifs. Most people are simply unwilling to give Tivo the money up front in that quantity, knowing that if the unit fails, you then have to spend yet more money to replace/fix hardware. Additionally, with the changing dynamics of the market, continued resale value is hardly promised. At least any more than it was in the housing bubble. Remember that?

As for the technology, from a whole home solution, Tivo solutions are frankly inferior at the moment. The mini makes it "better", but not equal. The fact that the mini degrades your four tuner box to a 3 tuner (or 2 tuner) is incredibly telling. I'm not blaming Tivo. But those are the facts. Tivo is finally delivering to an extent what the MSOs have been delivering now for years.

I understand your perspective, but simply disagree with it. If I take a step back and don't look at things through my "TiVo centric" glasses, then it is extremely clear that no matter how you calculate it, Tivo has lost the edge, and certainly has lost the financial advantage. My FiOS bill is living proof.

People here are very quick to accept shelling out $1200-$2000 up front to get a user experience (whole house) that cable will provide with no up front investment. Do NOT underestimate that. Do NOT underestimate the fact that their solution does NOT decrease available recording tuners. Do NOT overlook the fact that repairs and warranty are essentially meaningless for them, since the product is actually owned by the Cableco. Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that. It means something to consumers. We may have different objectives and criteria, however the general public is very VERY different than the average person on this site. And, if Tivo expects to be financially successful simply based on the members of this site, then we're in serious trouble all around.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:58 AM   #155
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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts.

First of all, you're making the assumption that people are willing to spend their money up front (more than $1000) in order to make those numbers works where Tivo is even remotely competitive from a price perspective. If you don't do lifetime and you don't get decent resale, then the Tivo math just plain does not work. Both of those are big ifs. Most people are simply unwilling to give Tivo the money up front in that quantity, knowing that if the unit fails, you then have to spend yet more money to replace/fix hardware. Additionally, with the changing dynamics of the market, continued resale value is hardly promised. At least any more than it was in the housing bubble. Remember that?

As for the technology, from a whole home solution, Tivo solutions are frankly inferior at the moment. The mini makes it "better", but not equal. The fact that the mini degrades your four tuner box to a 3 tuner (or 2 tuner) is incredibly telling. I'm not blaming Tivo. But those are the facts. Tivo is finally delivering to an extent what the MSOs have been delivering now for years.

I understand your perspective, but simply disagree with it. If I take a step back and don't look at things through my "TiVo centric" glasses, then it is extremely clear that no matter how you calculate it, Tivo has lost the edge, and certainly has lost the financial advantage. My FiOS bill is living proof.

People here are very quick to accept shelling out $1200-$2000 up front to get a user experience (whole house) that cable will provide with no up front investment. Do NOT underestimate that. Do NOT underestimate the fact that their solution does NOT decrease available recording tuners. Do NOT overlook the fact that repairs and warranty are essentially meaningless for them, since the product is actually owned by the Cableco. Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that. It means something to consumers. We may have different objectives and criteria, however the general public is very VERY different than the average person on this site. And, if Tivo expects to be financially successful simply based on the members of this site, then we're in serious trouble all around.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:10 AM   #156
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The biggest TiVo has is cost, which to a lay person always appears to be higher than that of MSO offerings. Add to that the perceived complexity of the install with cable cards and TiVo clearly has problems.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:24 AM   #157
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...Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that....
While I completely agree with your stance as well, you also have to realize that based on the quote above, since 2007 if you've been using their wondeful equipment and paying the "DVR, extra outlet, mirroring Fees, yada yada yada" which are in the $20-50 or more per month range, then you've more than paid for a TiVo or two, or that upgrade they're supposedly giving you for "free", no?
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:29 AM   #158
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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts.

First of all, you're making the assumption that people are willing to spend their money up front (more than $1000) in order to make those numbers works where Tivo is even remotely competitive from a price perspective. If you don't do lifetime and you don't get decent resale, then the Tivo math just plain does not work. Both of those are big ifs. Most people are simply unwilling to give Tivo the money up front in that quantity, knowing that if the unit fails, you then have to spend yet more money to replace/fix hardware. Additionally, with the changing dynamics of the market, continued resale value is hardly promised. At least any more than it was in the housing bubble. Remember that?

As for the technology, from a whole home solution, Tivo solutions are frankly inferior at the moment. The mini makes it "better", but not equal. The fact that the mini degrades your four tuner box to a 3 tuner (or 2 tuner) is incredibly telling. I'm not blaming Tivo. But those are the facts. Tivo is finally delivering to an extent what the MSOs have been delivering now for years.

I understand your perspective, but simply disagree with it. If I take a step back and don't look at things through my "TiVo centric" glasses, then it is extremely clear that no matter how you calculate it, Tivo has lost the edge, and certainly has lost the financial advantage. My FiOS bill is living proof.

People here are very quick to accept shelling out $1200-$2000 up front to get a user experience (whole house) that cable will provide with no up front investment. Do NOT underestimate that. Do NOT underestimate the fact that their solution does NOT decrease available recording tuners. Do NOT overlook the fact that repairs and warranty are essentially meaningless for them, since the product is actually owned by the Cableco. Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that. It means something to consumers. We may have different objectives and criteria, however the general public is very VERY different than the average person on this site. And, if Tivo expects to be financially successful simply based on the members of this site, then we're in serious trouble all around.
But my neighbors with FiOS and Comcast DVRs are always complaining about missed recordings. I don't care if it is free. If it doesn't record what I want then it is worthless. My neighbors typically miss more recordings every few months than I have in over ten years of using TiVos.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:37 AM   #159
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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts.

First of all, you're making the assumption that people are willing to spend their money up front (more than $1000) in order to make those numbers works where Tivo is even remotely competitive from a price perspective. If you don't do lifetime and you don't get decent resale, then the Tivo math just plain does not work. Both of those are big ifs. Most people are simply unwilling to give Tivo the money up front in that quantity, knowing that if the unit fails, you then have to spend yet more money to replace/fix hardware. Additionally, with the changing dynamics of the market, continued resale value is hardly promised. At least any more than it was in the housing bubble. Remember that?

As for the technology, from a whole home solution, Tivo solutions are frankly inferior at the moment. The mini makes it "better", but not equal. The fact that the mini degrades your four tuner box to a 3 tuner (or 2 tuner) is incredibly telling. I'm not blaming Tivo. But those are the facts. Tivo is finally delivering to an extent what the MSOs have been delivering now for years.

I understand your perspective, but simply disagree with it. If I take a step back and don't look at things through my "TiVo centric" glasses, then it is extremely clear that no matter how you calculate it, Tivo has lost the edge, and certainly has lost the financial advantage. My FiOS bill is living proof.

People here are very quick to accept shelling out $1200-$2000 up front to get a user experience (whole house) that cable will provide with no up front investment. Do NOT underestimate that. Do NOT underestimate the fact that their solution does NOT decrease available recording tuners. Do NOT overlook the fact that repairs and warranty are essentially meaningless for them, since the product is actually owned by the Cableco. Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that. It means something to consumers. We may have different objectives and criteria, however the general public is very VERY different than the average person on this site. And, if Tivo expects to be financially successful simply based on the members of this site, then we're in serious trouble all around.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:39 AM   #160
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But my neighbors with FiOS and Comcast DVRs are always complaining about missed recordings. I don't care if it is free. If it doesn't record what I want then it is worthless. My neighbors typically miss more recordings every few months than I have in over ten years of using TiVos.
And yet they put up with it... what's the reason for that? Obviously the upfront cost or some other factor is keeping them from buying a Tivo.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:40 AM   #161
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But my neighbors with FiOS and Comcast DVRs are always complaining about missed recordings. I don't care if it is free. If it doesn't record what I want then it is worthless. My neighbors typically miss more recordings every few months than I have in over ten years of using TiVos.
And the Genie Client and the Joey Lower the amount of Tuners of there respective products also.

And for the 2007 Fios thing.. Even at 10 bucks a month you have paid 600 dollars for that DVR So yeh be happy they are upgrading you
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:49 AM   #162
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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts.

First of all, you're making the assumption that people are willing to spend their money up front (more than $1000) in order to make those numbers works where Tivo is even remotely competitive from a price perspective. If you don't do lifetime and you don't get decent resale, then the Tivo math just plain does not work. Both of those are big ifs. Most people are simply unwilling to give Tivo the money up front in that quantity, knowing that if the unit fails, you then have to spend yet more money to replace/fix hardware. Additionally, with the changing dynamics of the market, continued resale value is hardly promised. At least any more than it was in the housing bubble. Remember that?
Did you bother to read my post? Where did I say anything about resale? What did I say in my last paragraph?

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Originally Posted by wmhjr View Post
As for the technology, from a whole home solution, Tivo solutions are frankly inferior at the moment. The mini makes it "better", but not equal. The fact that the mini degrades your four tuner box to a 3 tuner (or 2 tuner) is incredibly telling. I'm not blaming Tivo. But those are the facts. Tivo is finally delivering to an extent what the MSOs have been delivering now for years.
I have only seen what TWC is offering hands on and I can tell you your statement is 100% wrong about TWC's offering.

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I understand your perspective, but simply disagree with it. If I take a step back and don't look at things through my "TiVo centric" glasses, then it is extremely clear that no matter how you calculate it, Tivo has lost the edge, and certainly has lost the financial advantage. My FiOS bill is living proof.
My prospective is the only people who have done the math and posted the numbers say TiVo's whole home solution is price competitive. You say it is not and offer no supporting data. Remember while value is 100% opinion, cost competitiveness is actually based on real data, facts, and math.

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People here are very quick to accept shelling out $1200-$2000 up front to get a user experience (whole house) that cable will provide with no up front investment. Do NOT underestimate that. Do NOT underestimate the fact that their solution does NOT decrease available recording tuners. Do NOT overlook the fact that repairs and warranty are essentially meaningless for them, since the product is actually owned by the Cableco.
No disagreement on all of the above (just for the record TWC whole home DVR only has 2 tuners so the tuner thing is irrelevant in my cable area). But other than the tuner issue, they are value decisions and are also services that a third party hardware provider can not provide. So if those things are of high value to someone then they only have one option and that is to rent whatever their pay TV provider offers. Which is what I said in my post.

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Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that. It means something to consumers.
At no cost? Really? You have either been paying a monthly fee directly for that service or had the fee built into your pay TV service costs. So what was your Fee? I can tell you what I paid for a TiVo HD over about the same 5 years $500 for the unit with lifetime + less than $100 for a 2TB hard drive upgrade, and if I had been with TWC 60 months of cable card would have cost $90 for a Total of $690 or less than $12/mo. for 60 months.

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We may have different objectives and criteria, however the general public is very VERY different than the average person on this site. And, if Tivo expects to be financially successful simply based on the members of this site, then we're in serious trouble all around.
I have no objective in participating in this forum other than to post my opinion or provide people with help and/or facts if I have them. My opinion is that TiVo stand alone DVRs are a niche product and that the most likely way for TiVo to become successful is through cableco partnerships, which will hopefully allow them to continue to provide stand alone DVRs for their niche market.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #163
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First of all, you're making the assumption that people are willing to spend their money up front (more than $1000) in order to make those numbers works where Tivo is even remotely competitive from a price perspective. If you don't do lifetime and you don't get decent resale, then the Tivo math just plain does not work. Both of those are big ifs. Most people are simply unwilling to give Tivo the money up front in that quantity, knowing that if the unit fails, you then have to spend yet more money to replace/fix hardware. Additionally, with the changing dynamics of the market, continued resale value is hardly promised. At least any more than it was in the housing bubble. Remember that?
The price of entry for a Premiere 4 + Mini is $400. I suspect TiVo will soon offer bundling deals that lowers this cost to below $350. That's less than $30/mo for a year to light-up two televisions. With that said, the cost of entry for the majority of cable operators is zero up-front so I agree that its something that's difficult for TiVo to overcome. Its the prime reason that TiVo has teamed up with a large number of Tier 2/3 operators to offer the TiVo solution as their primary whole-home offering. TiVo receives a very low fee (~$1.50/mo average) in exchange for direct access to their customers, minimal technical support, etc.) For this use-case, TiVo's growth is accelerating. I posted a spreadsheet in this thread -- Comparing Whole-Home DVR Pricing. Its pretty clear from the numbers and Josh Goldman's pricing comparison on Cnet that the TiVo solution is competitive with the cable and satellite operators.

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As for the technology, from a whole home solution, Tivo solutions are frankly inferior at the moment. The mini makes it "better", but not equal. The fact that the mini degrades your four tuner box to a 3 tuner (or 2 tuner) is incredibly telling. I'm not blaming Tivo. But those are the facts. Tivo is finally delivering to an extent what the MSOs have been delivering now for years.
I completely disagree with this assessment. Have you experienced the whole home solution being provided currently on most of the cable systems? First of all, the primary DVR/gateway on Verizon, Time Warner Cable, and Bright House networks has only 2-tuners and a small drive. You are not able to pause or rewind live television on the satellite box. What most of these operators have provided is a method to essentially stream (MRS) recorded programs to a satellite box which TiVo has had for many years. The experience, in general, is inferior to TiVo's solution with the Premiere+Preview or Premiere 4/XL4+Mini.

With that said, the latest generation of boxes from DIRECTV and Dish offer competitive alternatives and in some-way superior solutions to the current TiVo software. I've used the last generation DIRECTV solution (prior to Genie) and my comments regarding the other cable operators solution apply to that inferior solution as well. Once TiVo implements DTA and releases faster gateway boxes, their solution will be on par or superior to everything on the market.


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I understand your perspective, but simply disagree with it. If I take a step back and don't look at things through my "TiVo centric" glasses, then it is extremely clear that no matter how you calculate it, Tivo has lost the edge, and certainly has lost the financial advantage. My FiOS bill is living proof.

People here are very quick to accept shelling out $1200-$2000 up front to get a user experience (whole house) that cable will provide with no up front investment. Do NOT underestimate that. Do NOT underestimate the fact that their solution does NOT decrease available recording tuners. Do NOT overlook the fact that repairs and warranty are essentially meaningless for them, since the product is actually owned by the Cableco. Again, my 2007 Verizon FiOS HD DVR is being exchanged - this week - at no cost - for their very newest version. Show me exactly where Tivo has ever done that. It means something to consumers. We may have different objectives and criteria, however the general public is very VERY different than the average person on this site. And, if Tivo expects to be financially successful simply based on the members of this site, then we're in serious trouble all around.
Once again, I'll refer you back to my comparison spreadsheet and/or the Cnet pricing comparison. I've personally used the 2-tuner Verizon FiOS whole-home solution and TiVo is superior. A lifetime Premiere 4+Mini is $30.66 over three years versus $31.99 for Verizon. The cost to equip 4 televisions is $44.43 for TiVo versus $51.99/mo for Verizon. I could add in extended warranties and it would have minimal impact on this analysis. The Mini has zero moving parts so a failure after the initial period is unlikely but its clearly a consideration.

The bottom-line is that TiVo is a premium solution that takes a conscious effort from a consumer who wants a superior television viewing experience. In my view, TiVo is like Apple in this regard. There is an up-front and continuing cost to a TiVo choice but in-return the experience is superior to the crappy offerings of most cable operators.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:02 AM   #164
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+3
I'm really very surprised that there is this opinion. Have you'll really used the crappy offerings of most cable operators? Verizon is probably the 3rd best whole-home solution on the market today and its inferior to TiVo in so many ways - 2-tuners, small disc drive, crappy remote, inability to pause or rewind live TV, ... TiVo is releasing a higher-end media gateway sometime later this year that will have more tuners, etc. so I will need to re-evaluate this statement after that solution is available. FiOS charges $20/mo for their DVR and $10 - $12/mo for their HD boxes.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:17 AM   #165
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I'm really very surprised that there is this opinion. Have you'll really used the crappy offerings of most cable operators? Verizon is probably the 3rd best whole-home solution on the market today and its inferior to TiVo in so many ways - 2-tuners, small disc drive, crappy remote, inability to pause or rewind live TV, ... TiVo is releasing a higher-end media gateway sometime later this year that will have more tuners, etc. so I will need to re-evaluate this statement after that solution is available. FiOS charges $20/mo for their DVR and $10 - $12/mo for their HD boxes.
He wont be happy until it is called the TiVo Mini Roku
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:22 AM   #166
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He wont be happy until it is called the TiVo Mini Roku
And you won't be happy until everyone drinks the Tivo Kool-Aid!
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:25 AM   #167
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Sam,

What resonates with people is that the MSO offerings are "good enough" for most consumers who see any upfront cost for equipment to be a negative. Even when TiVo was at their peak from a competitiveness standpoint it was a "premium" upgrade for DirecTV and the overwhelming majority of consumers would not bite.

It's worth pointing out also that repair/support/upgrades are included for no additional fee or a "nominal fee" with MSO equipment. Something your spreadsheet fails to account for but which is a big deal to consumers.

The other big problem that TiVo has is the reliance on cable operators setting up their solution with cable cards. Which based on threads here, remarkably still happens over five years since cable cards were introduced.

As long as MSOs view TiVo integration as competition and "a burden" it will be hard for TiVo to get traction.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:26 AM   #168
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I'm really very surprised that there is this opinion. Have you'll really used the crappy offerings of most cable operators? Verizon is probably the 3rd best whole-home solution on the market today and its inferior to TiVo in so many ways - 2-tuners, small disc drive, crappy remote, inability to pause or rewind live TV, ... TiVo is releasing a higher-end media gateway sometime later this year that will have more tuners, etc. so I will need to re-evaluate this statement after that solution is available. FiOS charges $20/mo for their DVR and $10 - $12/mo for their HD boxes.
Crappy or not, the perception is that you're getting a box for free or very little and it usually works with their system... because it is their system. Like it or not... Tivo has a lot of ground to make up on the MSO front before it will be seen as a viable option.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:10 PM   #169
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Sam,

What resonates with people is that the MSO offerings are "good enough" for most consumers who see any upfront cost for equipment to be a negative. Even when TiVo was at their peak from a competitiveness standpoint it was a "premium" upgrade for DirecTV and the overwhelming majority of consumers would not bite.

It's worth pointing out also that repair/support/upgrades are included for no additional fee or a "nominal fee" with MSO equipment. Something your spreadsheet fails to account for but which is a big deal to consumers.

The other big problem that TiVo has is the reliance on cable operators setting up their solution with cable cards. Which based on threads here, remarkably still happens over five years since cable cards were introduced.

As long as MSOs view TiVo integration as competition and "a burden" it will be hard for TiVo to get traction.
Jason,

I agree with one exception. I would say that upgrades of equipment are hit or miss with many of the providers. For example, in order to upgrade on DIRECTV a consumer might have to pay a significant up-front leased equipment cost plus extend his/her contract term and/or threaten to quit the service. With Verizon FiOS an upgrade is dependent on equipment availability at a local office and/or a shipping cost might have to be paid.

TiVo has managed to add on average 25,000 to 35,000 boxes per quarter while legacy Series 2/3 boxes drop off at a faster rate. The churn rate on Premiere boxes is lower than the add rate resulting in net additions of Series 4 subscribers. I think its possible that we may start to see a slight improvement in these numbers as word spreads of TiVo's solution via word-of-mouth and mainstream press (e.g., USA Today, NY Times, ...). We also know that TiVo adds in Comcast areas that support Xfinity is higher than in other areas. Support from the various cable operators is not consistent across the country but Comcast is pretty good and offers free in-home installation of a TiVo solution.

I will concede however that TiVo will have a difficult time adding a significant number of users to its retail base with the current market environment and the current solution. I do think there is the possibility of slow growth in the US retail market which nicely augments the significant growth they are experiencing with their domestic and international partners.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:11 PM   #170
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Crappy or not, the perception is that you're getting a box for free or very little and it usually works with their system... because it is their system. Like it or not... Tivo has a lot of ground to make up on the MSO front before it will be seen as a viable option.
Hmm... I've witnessed more and more of my friends starting to look at their cable bill and realizing their paying $40/mo or more on equipment rental charges...
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:11 PM   #171
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And yet they put up with it... what's the reason for that? Obviously the upfront cost or some other factor is keeping them from buying a Tivo.
They put up with it because of the low upfront cost. But in the long run the TiVo is cheaper. When I brought it up to one of my neighbors who pays for two DVRs from FiOS(over $30 a month), they had never thought about how much they had spent. They were surprised at all the money they spent over the years. But in the end they still didn't get a TiVo. Even though it would be less expensive in the long run.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:14 PM   #172
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Comcast does not install TiVo gear for free, at least in my market. You have to pay for a "truck roll" so that a surly tech can struggle to get your cc activated, all the while griping and moaning about what a PITA TiVo boxes are to them.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #173
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They put up with it because of the low upfront cost. But in the long run the TiVo is cheaper. When I brought it up to one of my neighbors who pays for two DVRs from FiOS(over $30 a month), they had never thought about how much they had spent. They were surprised at all the money they spent over the years. But in the end they still didn't get a TiVo. Even though it would be less expensive in the long run.
Yep, I know a lot of folks like that. They don't want to change even if it would save them money. For some reason, they don't want to hassle with it.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:29 PM   #174
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They put up with it because of the low upfront cost. But in the long run the TiVo is cheaper. When I brought it up to one of my neighbors who pays for two DVRs from FiOS(over $30 a month), they had never thought about how much they had spent. They were surprised at all the money they spent over the years. But in the end they still didn't get a TiVo. Even though it would be less expensive in the long run.
TiVo is only cheaper if you don't have equipment failures outside of warranty. With MSO offerings you are also often able to "upgrade" to newer equipment at a lower cost than with TiVo.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:35 PM   #175
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Comcast does not install TiVo gear for free, at least in my market. You have to pay for a "truck roll" so that a surly tech can struggle to get your cc activated, all the while griping and moaning about what a PITA TiVo boxes are to them.
It looks like the free truck-roll might be related to a user who switches to Comcast. I know TiVo has mentioned the agreement with Comcast for free installation a number of times and Comcast's TiVo page also says,

Quote:
SWITCHING IS AS EASY AS 1, 2, 3

1. Visit www.tivo.com/xfinity to purchase a TiVo Premiere DVR

2. Call 1-800-XFINITY and switch to XFINITY TV

3. Ask how we can help set up your TiVo Premiere at no additional cost


Limited to new residential customers.

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Old 03-24-2013, 01:37 PM   #176
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If you buy the TiVo from Comcast I do not doubt they install it for free. I bought my last one at Best Buy and Comcast did not offer to install it free.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:00 PM   #177
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If you buy the TiVo from Comcast I do not doubt they install it for free. I bought my last one at Best Buy and Comcast did not offer to install it free.
Jason,

Comcast doesn't sell TiVo boxes.

You can buy from tivo.com or any retailer and if you are a "new customer" switching to Comcast, they will come out to your house and install for free. The key is a "new residential customer". This is one area where TiVo could work with Best Buy to gain new customers. Almost every time I'm in Best Buy, I have a DIRECTV representative trying to get me to switch. TiVo could do the same if they had knowledgeable TiVo representatives at key Best Buys within the Xfinity footprint.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:29 PM   #178
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TiVo is only cheaper if you don't have equipment failures outside of warranty. With MSO offerings you are also often able to "upgrade" to newer equipment at a lower cost than with TiVo.
How often do they actually fail? From my experience with TiVos, it is very rare. But from the people I know that have been using Comcast and FiOS DVRs during the last five or six years, they seem to have a high failure/problem rate. Most people I know with those boxes have had one or two boxes exchanged for one reason or another. And in the process lost any recordings they had. It certainly pissed them off, but it still wasn't enough to get them to get a TiVo.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:44 PM   #179
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How often do they actually fail? From my experience with TiVos, it is very rare. But from the people I know that have been using Comcast and FiOS DVRs during the last five or six years, they seem to have a high failure/problem rate. Most people I know with those boxes have had one or two boxes exchanged for one reason or another. And in the process lost any recordings they had. It certainly pissed them off, but it still wasn't enough to get them to get a TiVo.
I think TiVo could further differentiate their offering by offering a Cloud backup of a subscribers programs and/or offering a high-end unit with some redundancy on disc drives. Essentially Carbonite for the DVR.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #180
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Jason,

Comcast doesn't sell TiVo boxes.

You can buy from tivo.com or any retailer and if you are a "new customer" switching to Comcast, they will come out to your house and install for free. The key is a "new residential customer". This is one area where TiVo could work with Best Buy to gain new customers. Almost every time I'm in Best Buy, I have a DIRECTV representative trying to get me to switch. TiVo could do the same if they had knowledgeable TiVo representatives at key Best Buys within the Xfinity footprint.
I doubt that TiVo has the marketing budget to do that but it's a good idea for them especially in Xfinity markets where it is an easier sell. Comcast might even be willing to split the costs since it would help them against Dish and directv.
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