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Old 03-22-2013, 01:50 PM   #61
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FYI, if you have multiple minis you can still just allocate one tuner to them, which will then be shared amongst your minis. At that point if more than one mini tries to use the live tuner you'd get the already in use message.

DOH, someone beat me to it!
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:53 PM   #62
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Those answers from TiVo are bogus - it looks like they were already factoring in dynamic tuning which is not currently available. Guess next time you'll know to study up information on the TCF instead of relying on information from TiVo. The current limitations of the TiVo Mini were well spelled out here in advance and it behaves as I expected it to based on the information collected here. I understand your frustrations and all I can say is if it doesn't live up to what you were told and/or your expectations then send it back.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:56 PM   #63
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You can still have 3 recording tuners, you just can't have both TiVo Minis vieiwng live TV concurrently. This is how mine are set up. I share one tuner, from one of my Elites, between both of my Minis.
OK, thanks. That's great to know. So it means that you can add TWO mini devices to an XL4/P4 and only lose one XL4/P4 tuner. The downside is that you always have that tuner lost, and that you can only watch live TV on both mini devices at the same time.

I still don't fully understand why the mini seems to allow me to schedule a recording from the guide. Does that mean that I just can't manage recording on that tuner from the XL4 but I can for recording through the mini?

I also still think it's a very serious disadvantage for the mini that TiVo is not very transparent about - and that it's probably deliberate in terms of being misleading. Adding the mini probably in reality pushes people into needing yet another Tivo DVR, which they are not being honest about. So, it really isn't a $99 device. It's a $250 (including service) plus an additional Premier plus another $400 for service. So in no case assuming you can't afford to lose a tuner will it really cost less than $800 if you're right on the edge of tuner capacity.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:57 PM   #64
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But with the mini, you can't - the only way to not lose a recording tuner is to permanently give up the ability to watch live content on the mini..There is no "live TV" button available.

If you want the "live TV button" to even be available, you have to give up a recording tuner on the XL4. Meaning it's not there to use even if the mini is powered off.
I think I will hold off a purchase because of this 'feature'.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:00 PM   #65
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Those answers from TiVo are bogus - it looks like they were already factoring in dynamic tuning which is not currently available. Guess next time you'll know to study up information on the TCF instead of relying on information from TiVo. The current limitations of the TiVo Mini were well spelled out here in advance and it behaves as I expected it to based on the information collected here. I understand your frustrations and all I can say is if it doesn't live up to what you were told and/or your expectations then send it back.
moyekj,

I want my VENDOR who is required to support the product to have basic product capability understanding. If Tivo cannot do that, then their staff is utterly worthless. If that's the case, I have serious support issues.

There is a lot of info on TCF, and as you are well aware, I did a great deal of studying here before ordering one. However, even here it's hard to separate what is "supported" vs what "works right now". We've had this conversation before.

I'm still deciding about the mini in my case. I will say that almost certainly, if I keep it I'm going to have to pick up another premier. I'm extremely unhappy with that idea. It's more likely that I'll send it back. To that end, I also think it is not only inappropriate - but frankly unethical - for Tivo to fail to disclose themselves the details around this product. They are at this point being what I strongly think points to deliberately misleading to an extent that it goes way beyond dishonesty.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:10 PM   #66
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BTW, I've played with this a little more. I selected some content playing live on the mini, and then hit record. I got a message (via the mini) that it had been added to my "to do" list. I then went to Tivo central, and now playing. That content shows up as recording. So, I'm thoroughly confused as to how the recording stuff is going on with the mini at this point. I guess I'm assuming that I just used one of the "other 3 tuners" on the XL4 to generate the recording? If that's the case, then I just consumed two tuners? Geez.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:19 PM   #67
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Yes, you just consumed two tuners if you chose to record something you were watching live on the Mini.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:29 PM   #68
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BTW, I've played with this a little more. I selected some content playing live on the mini, and then hit record. I got a message (via the mini) that it had been added to my "to do" list. I then went to Tivo central, and now playing. That content shows up as recording. So, I'm thoroughly confused as to how the recording stuff is going on with the mini at this point. I guess I'm assuming that I just used one of the "other 3 tuners" on the XL4 to generate the recording? If that's the case, then I just consumed two tuners? Geez.

Yes, it will never use the tuner deidcated to the Mini for a recording. So say you have 30 minutes of a program in the buffer while watching on a Mini. If you hit record, it will use one of the three remaining tuners on the P4 and start recording from that point. You won't get the buffer included in the recording, like you would when using a Premiere.

Hopefully when Dynamic Tuner Allocation is enabled, it will behave differently.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:42 PM   #69
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OK, thanks for the clarification. That's what I guessed - not good. Looking more and more unless they actually commit to dynamic tuner allocation being released soon, that the mini is simply not an acceptable solution for me at least. Or at least without VERY significant additional investment. It's hardly the bargain that Tivo is trying to make it out to be.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:50 PM   #70
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OK, thanks for the clarification. That's what I guessed - not good. Looking more and more unless they actually commit to dynamic tuner allocation being released soon, that the mini is simply not an acceptable solution for me at least. Or at least without VERY significant additional investment. It's hardly the bargain that Tivo is trying to make it out to be.

Tivo is in a difficult situation with the Mini and their entire ecosystem. It is confusing as hell right now. Not very Tivo like. HOPEFULLY, the confusion will begin to go away as the restrictions and limitations are resolved. This includes: dynamic tuner allocation, Netflix on the Mini, no longer selling 2 tuner Premieres, some understanding of how 2 tuner Premiers can be used with the Mini, Android support for Stream, browser support for Stream, integrated Stream in the next Premiere model that may be out in the fall, including OTA support for the new model, and others I can't think of right now. That is the To Do list. It's a lot.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:03 PM   #71
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We have gotten official comments that said both dynamic tuner allocation and Android support for the Stream are being worked on right now. So those are coming eventually.

Their recent FCC filing strongly points towards a new TiVo platform coming in the fall and it would be very, very, foolish of them to release any new TiVos that don't support the Mini. I expect that the base model will have at least 3 tuners (1 record, one local live, 1 Mini live) probably 4, and there will be a high end 6 tuner model for cable subscribers.

Built in Stream capabilities are likely to exist in the new platform, but they not required as the current Stream works with any TiVo and is available now. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the new TiVos were released with the hardware for this but with it disabled at launch if there are any sort of time constraints.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:11 PM   #72
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I think it prudent to wait if you feel there are new devices in the near future. I would not put it past TiVo to change the design requiring a newer Mini version to talk to the newer platforms. I would also not put it past them to not deliver on the dynamic tuner allocation firmware update for the current Minis. There is not a large number of adoptions of the Mini right now and their voices would not be very loud, nor would they be good candidates for upgrading to the later model anyway (bleeding edge devotees of this forum excepted!). TiVo could offer a trade in / subscription switch to a later version if needed.

I think the entry level would likely be a 4 tuner device if TiVo want to push their whole home concept (and it is a good one, especially as it obviates the need for multiple cable cards from the cable company). I also think a high end 6 tuner is a good guess, since the current mCards already support up to 6 tuners.

I do want to move to a Mini but after the recent clarifications here I am glad I have held off.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:04 PM   #73
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I agree with some of these comments. My additional take, after owning Tivo product since 2007, is this. I don't trust Tivo any more in terms of delivering on solutions, fixes, or quality. I believe what I see, and will only invest in what they "officially" say they'll support. Fees are far too high at this point to deal with anything else, as the downside is far too great. Tivo is way behind in key feature sets, and quality has been less than stellar. The mini, while having promise, is frankly a niche solution at this point because of all of the caveats with it - and frankly because the release has been botched so monumentally badly. Resale of older Tivos with lifetime, IMHO, will suffer significantly compared to historical trends, as they will be so crippled by non-support and an inability to handle any multi-anything strategy, meaning that pricing compared to other offerings has just taken a turn for the worst.

I already have an XL4 and a Premier 2, as well as an HD. The mini may or may not stay. In order to keep it, I'll need to figure out what to do with my non-XL4 machines, as the HD becomes useless (I was going to replace it with a mini) and losing that tuner and the HD capacity (it has a 750gb drive) creates a gap. I'd just pick up another regular premium, but Tivo lifetime or monthly service per unit makes that ridiculously expensive. So, it's probably going to be either get rid of the premier and the HD, pick up an XL4, or return the mini. That is a HUGE cost to pay for a "$99" device. We'll see. I know every situation is different but every time Tivo pulls this kind of stunt, it pushes me closer and closer to walking out the door.

BTW, typing this as my newest Premier, about 4 months old now, just spontaneously rebooted again.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:35 PM   #74
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Resale of older Tivos with lifetime, IMHO, will suffer significantly compared to historical trends, as they will be so crippled by non-support and an inability to handle any multi-anything strategy, meaning that pricing compared to other offerings has just taken a turn for the worst.
I doubt it will change anything. You can sell a 7+ year old S3 unit with lifetime right now for >$300. The hardware alone is basically useless, but the lifetime service retains much of it's value. And the Premiere units DO support the multi-room stuff. The only thing they do not support is being a Mini host. If you have a Premiere on your network you can still stream to the Mini from it and you can still stream shows from any other Premiere units to it. It still has significant value as a second DVR.

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II already have an XL4 and a Premier 2, as well as an HD. The mini may or may not stay. In order to keep it, I'll need to figure out what to do with my non-XL4 machines, as the HD becomes useless (I was going to replace it with a mini) and losing that tuner and the HD capacity (it has a 750gb drive) creates a gap. I'd just pick up another regular premium, but Tivo lifetime or monthly service per unit makes that ridiculously expensive. So, it's probably going to be either get rid of the premier and the HD, pick up an XL4, or return the mini. That is a HUGE cost to pay for a "$99" device. We'll see.
I don't understand how you expected this to work. You knew you were replacing a TiVo HD, with 2 tuners and 750GB drive, with a Mini that has no tuners and no local storage. You must have realized there would be a gap?

The Mini is not meant for your particular scenario. It's intended for people who are happy with the number of tuners and GBs they have and simply want to extend TiVo viewing to another room. It was never intended to be a replacement for a full fledged DVR.

That being said let's look at the math...

$700 - Premiere XL4
$250 - TiVo Mini
------
$950
-$300 - TiVo HD
-$450 - Premiere
------
$200

So for $200 you get the ability to stream shows to all rooms, rather then the transfer the THD can do, you have one less To Do List and Season Pass Manager to manage, and you get to return one of your CableCARDs saving $3/mo.

It's actually not that bad of a trade-off.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:57 PM   #75
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I doubt it will change anything. You can sell a 7+ year old S3 unit with lifetime right now for >$300. The hardware alone is basically useless, but the lifetime service retains much of it's value. And the Premiere units DO support the multi-room stuff. The only thing they do not support is being a Mini host. If you have a Premiere on your network you can still stream to the Mini from it and you can still stream shows from any other Premiere units to it. It still has significant value as a second DVR.



I don't understand how you expected this to work. You knew you were replacing a TiVo HD, with 2 tuners and 750GB drive, with a Mini that has no tuners and no local storage. You must have realized there would be a gap?

The Mini is not meant for your particular scenario. It's intended for people who are happy with the number of tuners and GBs they have and simply want to extend TiVo viewing to another room. It was never intended to be a replacement for a full fledged DVR.

That being said let's look at the math...

$700 - Premiere XL4
$250 - TiVo Mini
------
$950
-$300 - TiVo HD
-$450 - Premiere
------
$200

So for $200 you get the ability to stream shows to all rooms, rather then the transfer the THD can do, you have one less To Do List and Season Pass Manager to manage, and you get to return one of your CableCARDs saving $3/mo.

It's actually not that bad of a trade-off.
Actually, I wouldn't say that at all. What I was talking about is the value of other units, such as the THD. The Premier is a current unit. Already, however, the THD has rapidly diminishing value, even though it has lifetime.

I also don't agree with the math at all. If I look at eBay, I don't see THDs with lifetime actually SELLING for $300. I see them listed, and I see the buy it now auctions ending without selling. I see some for $180, etc. And every day, week, month, that value goes down as far as I can guess. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places. However, I'm logged into ebay right now. I truly believe that the ability - or inability - to stream along with using the mini - will seriously diminish the value of older Tivos. Far, far more than what we've experienced in the past. Frankly, if somebody things otherwise, please let me know. I've got a THD with lifetime and an upgraded drive that I'd be perfectly happy to sell for $300. Let me know, and I'll get it boxed up and ship it tomorrow.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...ifetime&_sop=1


You also discount the fact that you totally lose a tuner for recording in the beginning. Tivo is being disingenuous in not really talking about how a "house" trying to use one or more of the mini devices just lost potentially 25% of it's recording capability. And let's face it. If you're adding tVs, you just may well have varied recording interests - which is exactly why people want more tuners.

The lack of dynamic tuner allocation is a core weakness in the product line to start with. Given the costs, it's really hard to get around that.

Bottom line here is that TiVo is really trying to play catch-up for years of complacency and arrogance, thinking nobody would ever catch up. Problem is, in terms of whole house experience, they didn't catch up. they leap frogged Tivo. Now it's Tivo trying to continue driving revenues up by taking advantage of existing customers who have no other opportunity or option unless they unload TiVo. With Roku, etc, that day may be getting closer if they keep this up.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:15 PM   #76
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Actually, I wouldn't say that at all. What I was talking about is the value of other units, such as the THD. The Premier is a current unit. Already, however, the THD has rapidly diminishing value, even though it has lifetime.

I also don't agree with the math at all. If I look at eBay, I don't see THDs with lifetime actually SELLING for $300. I see them listed, and I see the buy it now auctions ending without selling. I see some for $180, etc. And every day, week, month, that value goes down as far as I can guess. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places. However, I'm logged into ebay right now. I truly believe that the ability - or inability - to stream along with using the mini - will seriously diminish the value of older Tivos. Far, far more than what we've experienced in the past. Frankly, if somebody things otherwise, please let me know. I've got a THD with lifetime and an upgraded drive that I'd be perfectly happy to sell for $300. Let me know, and I'll get it boxed up and ship it tomorrow.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...ifetime&_sop=1


You also discount the fact that you totally lose a tuner for recording in the beginning. Tivo is being disingenuous in not really talking about how a "house" trying to use one or more of the mini devices just lost potentially 25% of it's recording capability. And let's face it. If you're adding tVs, you just may well have varied recording interests - which is exactly why people want more tuners.

The lack of dynamic tuner allocation is a core weakness in the product line to start with. Given the costs, it's really hard to get around that.

Bottom line here is that TiVo is really trying to play catch-up for years of complacency and arrogance, thinking nobody would ever catch up. Problem is, in terms of whole house experience, they didn't catch up. they leap frogged Tivo. Now it's Tivo trying to continue driving revenues up by taking advantage of existing customers who have no other opportunity or option unless they unload TiVo. With Roku, etc, that day may be getting closer if they keep this up.
If you look at the completed listing you'll see that most TiVo HD units with lifetime sell for around $300. Ones with upgraded drives actually get a bit more. It's hard to gauge from open listings because most people wait until the last minute to bid.

As for the Mini's shortcomings... I completely agree that the way it works now, with it having to permanently steal a tuner, is less then desirable and not really a viable replacement for a box at the secondary TV unless you're also upgrading the primary TiVo from a 2 tuner to a 4 tuner unit. (you actually gain a recording tuner in that scenario)

I also agree that TiVo rested on it's laurels for far too long and is now playing catch up. However in the last year they've done more then they had done in the last 3 combined, so I have some optimism going forward. Although I can understand why you may not share in that optimism.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:54 PM   #77
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I'll keep looking. At least I'll probably be selling the THD if I can get those prices.

BTW, thanks for the civil discussion.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:56 AM   #78
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I sold a THD with a 1TB drive for $375 shipped a few months ago, so it's not going down that much. I use buy it now instead of auction though, a lot of people want to buy now and not bid. Post yours for $350 and see what happens (but do it right now, feebay's fees are going up a good bit soon).
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #79
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I sold a THD with a 1TB drive for $375 shipped a few months ago, so it's not going down that much. I use buy it now instead of auction though, a lot of people want to buy now and not bid. Post yours for $350 and see what happens (but do it right now, feebay's fees are going up a good bit soon).
Thanks, I'll do that. A 1TB drive definitely makes it more valuable. I have two THDs with lifetime right now (long story). I'll likely be putting both of them on eBay very soon. One is a standard drive, the 2nd is a larger drive. I really don't expect to get much more than $250 or so for the standard drive if I'm really lucky. Maybe a good bit less than that. The larger drive will hopefully bring closer to $300.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:00 PM   #80
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BTW, I'm wondering specifically if the release of the mini, and streaming, will lead to significantly lower THD prices now, or soon. That's my bet. I mean, how many people on this site will be willing to pay $300 knowing that the mini can never see the THD, that it can't stream, and that if the mini can't see it, chances are the next version of the Tivo will not either. People will have to be very comfortable knowing it will effectively be an island, right?
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #81
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BTW, I'm wondering specifically if the release of the mini, and streaming, will lead to significantly lower THD prices now, or soon. That's my bet. I mean, how many people on this site will be willing to pay $300 knowing that the mini can never see the THD, that it can't stream, and that if the mini can't see it, chances are the next version of the Tivo will not either. People will have to be very comfortable knowing it will effectively be an island, right?
New people just getting into TiVo have to pay $500 for Lifetime + something for the hardware, so IMHO the Series 3 will go for $300 to $400 for some time now. There is only a small group of people in USA that even know about the Mini, and 90% of them are on this forum.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:45 PM   #82
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New people just getting into TiVo have to pay $500 for Lifetime + something for the hardware, so IMHO the Series 3 will go for $300 to $400 for some time now. There is only a small group of people in USA that even know about the Mini, and 90% of them are on this forum.
That could be, and hopefully is, true. But I wonder if the dimensions are changing now that you consider that just a couple years ago, the big difference between an original S3 for example, and an HD or XL, was pretty much THX and/or drive size. Or, the ability to use a single multistream card vs 2 single stream cards. Pretty much until right now, there really wasn't that much you couldn't do with an earlier box that you could not do with a brand new box. Now, there are very large differences. If we were talking about them spending $150 total, I'd for sure agree. But at $300, people would really need to be driven to Tivo to pay it, and if they are, why in the future will they settle for no streaming, no whole house, no mini, etc? You're right that very few people know about the mini, but consumers are being flooded with advertisements about whole house solutions from everybody else - including sat.

It's something I'm wondering about. My guess is that an HD with lifetime is going to be taking a pretty measurable resale hit pretty soon. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:23 PM   #83
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Just a thought. Now with 6 tuner devices available, I doubt there's any way TiVo will bother to implement dynamic tuner allocation.

I am glad (and sad) I didn't buy this device, but I would still if they implemented this and didn't tie up one of my XL4 tuners.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:02 PM   #84
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DTA for the Roamio line is out as of today, it's "coming soon" for the Premiere.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:33 AM   #85
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Wow. I hope it does come soon! Can't justify a new machine/sub but will add to my Premiere...
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