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Old 03-21-2013, 10:18 PM   #1
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Here is Tivo's explanation on Mini pricing. I agree with the author and still think it's a bit overpriced for what it is though. I think $150 (total price) would be more reasonable. But what do I know.... I can't even use it with my 2 tuner Premieres anyway.

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...?smid=tw-share

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-medi...5627726-2.html

Last edited by magnus : 03-24-2013 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Added another link with more details on why Tivo thinks this is good pricing
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:06 PM   #2
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Here is Tivo's explanation on Mini pricing. I agree with the author and still think it's a bit overpriced for what it is though. I think $150 would be more reasonable. But what do I know.... I can't even use it with my 2 tuner Premieres anyway.

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...?smid=tw-share
It's a little too disingenuous for me. The TiVo Stream has no monthly fee nor do the devices running the TiVo apps. Windows Media Center Extenders have no fee (nor does WMC itself). TiVo Desktop has no fee. 'Because we need to make money' is the only logically correct answer but not correct from a marketing point of view.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:24 PM   #3
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Maybe they made a mistake by not charging a fee for using the Stream. Although I can't use one since I don't own any Apple products.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:31 AM   #4
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Pretty much every review comes to the same conclusion regardless of how Tivo tries to spin it - it's 'because we can'.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:34 AM   #5
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Do people pester DirecTV and Comcast to justify their fees? AT&T and Verizon? I just don't see why anyone feels there is anything wrong with "because we can". Don't like the fee? Buy lifetime, or don't buy a Mini. Seems pretty simple.

If TiVo did not have a subscription fee, but only sold it for $250 I wonder if the griping would have been more or less.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:05 AM   #6
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Complaining about MSO fees is a religion.

What's wrong with "because we can" is that it's Tivo's version of an arbitrary additional outlet fee. Fans/Consumers/The media hold Tivo to a higher standard than the nickel and dimer MSO's that they very commonly have strong, negative opinions of. Many people have chosen Tivo to avoid these MSO traps, but this is them playing the same game.

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #7
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Do people pester DirecTV and Comcast to justify their fees? AT&T and Verizon? I just don't see why anyone feels there is anything wrong with "because we can". Don't like the fee? Buy lifetime, or don't buy a Mini. Seems pretty simple.

If TiVo did not have a subscription fee, but only sold it for $250 I wonder if the griping would have been more or less.
They do Pester comcast about the outlet fee as but I completely agree with you. They call have fees and fees and fees for DVR usage, rental HW that is 10 years old and so on

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:08 AM   #8
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Do people pester DirecTV and Comcast to justify their fees?
But providers like Charter, Comcast, Cox, and Time-Warner appear on lists of America's most-hated companies. Tivo is looking to the wrong role models if it wants to have happy customers.

On their current track, no one will be surprised when Tivo finally succeeds in becoming just another hated company.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:33 AM   #9
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Complaining about MSOs fees is a religion.

What's wrong with "because we can" is that it's Tivo's version of an arbitrary additional outlet fee. Fans/Consumers/The media hold Tivo to a higher standard than nickel and dimer MSO's that they very commonly have strongly negative opinions of. Many people have chosen Tivo to avoid these MSO traps, but this is them playing the same game.
Yep, that's pretty much the way I look at it. Oh well, as with everything Tivo all I care about is the total 'lifetime' cost, no matter what games they want to play to come up with it. And $250 is too rich for me right now.

A lot of others are not liking how they break it down as can be seen from the comments in pretty much every review.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:41 PM   #10
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Maybe they made a mistake by not charging a fee for using the Stream. Although I can't use one since I don't own any Apple products.
I think the reason they don't charge for the Stream is because they plan on building that functionality into the next gen TiVos and they didn't want to have that functionality equated to an extra fee.

I think the main reason they charge a fee for the Mini is because they can. No matter how similar the equipment is they're not competing with Roku or Apple TV, they're competing with the Dish Hopper, DirecTV genie and similar cable offerings, all of which charge per box. As long as their pricing compares favorably to those options then they are OK.

You may not like the TiVo Mini pricing, but it's unlikely you'd be able to find another "whole home" solution that was much cheaper. (a MCE HTPC with Ceton Echo might be, but also much harder to manage)
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:00 PM   #11
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I think the reason they don't charge for the Stream is because they plan on building that functionality into the next gen TiVos and they didn't want to have that functionality equated to an extra fee.

I think the main reason they charge a fee for the Mini is because they can. No matter how similar the equipment is they're not competing with Roku or Apple TV, they're competing with the Dish Hopper, DirecTV genie and similar cable offerings, all of which charge per box. As long as their pricing compares favorably to those options then they are OK.

You may not like the TiVo Mini pricing, but it's unlikely you'd be able to find another "whole home" solution that was much cheaper. (a MCE HTPC with Ceton Echo might be, but also much harder to manage)
I think it would be a much easier pill to swallow for most... if Amazon, Netflix, Vudu, and 2 tuner support were there.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:21 PM   #12
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Why? None of those services are available on any of those other devices I mentioned either. Except maybe the HTPC/Echo.

Try to build a whole home DVR from any MSO that has those features and a host DVR with less then 4 tuners. It's not possible.

The problem is not what the Mini is, it's what people expected it to be. People were expecting a simple streaming box, akin to a Roku, with the ability to stream TiVo recordings. Instead they got something more akin to the extenders offered by the MSOs. Look at the price comparison thread. A TiVo+Mini is very similar to the prices you pay for a comparable MSO offering. So the only thing off here was people's expectations.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:47 PM   #13
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So the only thing off here was people's expectations.
Yes...

But this is a tough one. Unless you have a P4 device today or are willing to purchase a P4 at the same time, then the Mini isn't a viable product for you.

Frankly, the offering gets so complicated that I almost think TiVo has put themselves into a bad PR black hole.

- It has a service fee, only to market it competitively priced with the rest of their product line.
- It doesn’t offer the same OTT services as the parent systems
- It doesn’t work with 2 tuner Premiers, because it would be terribly confusing to the average user to either have all their tuners co-oped or have live TV completely unavailable on those systems.
- It doesn’t have dynamic tuner allocation so you loose a tuner.

So many decisions seem to be based more on marketing and message control that technical limitations that I can see where it gets very frustrating.

I do think it is a good product and it will mature and fit nicely into the ecosystem - eventually.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:55 PM   #14
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All of this will work out eventually. All indications point toward the next gen TiVos having a minimum of 3 tuners (probably 4), even ones that support OTA. Once those are available they will discontinue the current 2 tuner boxes and all confusion about which TiVos will or wont work with a Mini will go away. By that time they should also have dynamic tuner allocation working to avoid that part of the problem.

As for the OTT services... Netflix is the only one missing right? I assume this is some sort of business issue and not a technical one since the Mini runs the same Air apps as the main TiVo. It could be that TiVo is having some issue on the business side, with the revenue sharing or whatever, that is causing them to disable Netflix until it's sorted out. That could get resolved at any time, or not at all. We'll just have to wait and see on that.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:57 PM   #15
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Is it rude to quote yourself?

Quote:
I do think it is a good product and it will mature and fit nicely into the ecosystem - eventually.

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Old 03-22-2013, 03:38 PM   #16
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I don't really get all this "it won't work with my 2 tuner blah blah blah" because when you compare it to other service providers offerings like Dish and DirecTV, you can't use the Joey without a Hopper or a C31 Genie Mini Client without the Genie Host now can you? They of course CAN access the recordings from those older gen DVRs, just like the mini! I am coming from DirecTV and I didn't hear them complain it didn't work with their older generation HR24, 23, 22, 21 DVRs. It's new technology, and it marches on.

Well, I do kind of get it, but it just seems like a pessimistic "glass half empty" type of thing. Being away from TiVo for the last few years, I can say this mini is what may bring me back because I really didn't like the whole home solution and costs of using multiple full fledged TiVos.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:34 PM   #17
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I don't really get all this "it won't work with my 2 tuner blah blah blah" because when you compare it to other service providers offerings like Dish and DirecTV, you can't use the Joey without a Hopper or a C31 Genie Mini Client without the Genie Host now can you?
Tivo misdirected us 10 months ago by saying full 2-tuner support would come once the tuner allocation issue was resolved, and then never updated us on this until now. So the complaint is fair. They're at fault for screwing up those expectations.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:41 PM   #18
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Tivo misdirected us
Did they?
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:57 PM   #19
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Did they?
I trust Megazone's reporting. He spoke with Jim Denney and maybe others. MZ was very clear explaining how the Mini would work and how the tuner allocation issue would impact 2-tuner units temporarily.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/2...ail-this-year/
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:58 PM   #20
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Tivo misdirected us 10 months ago by saying full 2-tuner support would come once the tuner allocation issue was resolved, and then never updated us on this until now. So the complaint is fair. They're at fault for screwing up those expectations.
Really when? We may have speculated that here on the forum, but I don't think we got much information at all about the Mini or how it would work directly from TiVo.

We like to speculate a LOT here on the forums. It's not TiVo's fault if we get it wrong.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:02 PM   #21
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See above.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:13 PM   #22
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I think MZ made the same assumption the rest of us did. He never claims that Jim said that it would work with a 2 tuner unit. He simply said that it would not work at launch because of the dedicated tuner and then said it "should" work once dynamic tuner allocation was available.

Like most of us MZ probably just assumed that once tuner allocation was dynamic it would no longer be an issue. However what we all forgot to consider is that TiVo has always marketed the 2 tuner unit as "watch one show while recording another". If they allowed a Mini to steal a tuner from a 2 tuner box, even dynamically, then that use case dissolves. There is no elegant way for a Mini to be able to pair with a 2 tuner unit without it diminishing the user experience in some way. Either the Mini wont be able to do live TV at all or the host unit will lose the ability to "watch one show while recording another" while the Mini is in use. Neither option is ideal, and it makes sense that TiVo would decide neither was worth supporting.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:33 PM   #23
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Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:55 PM   #24
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Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.
The real solution here is to "unofficially support" it. They would not provide customer support for issues related to 2-tuners but the TCFers would have little to complain about.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:55 PM   #25
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Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.
They will probably get very little. With the exception of the few idiots who abuse the system
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:58 PM   #26
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They will probably get very little. With the exception of the few idiots who abuse the system
How are they abusing the system exactly? I don't really care for the idea but Tivo pretty much did it to themselves. They don't currently have a 4 tuner OTA box and they aren't supporting the 2 tuner boxes that do.

Like I said, I don't care to go to all the trouble but I certainly understand why some might.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:00 PM   #27
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Why? None of those services are available on any of those other devices I mentioned either. Except maybe the HTPC/Echo.
Yeah, and then you lose VOD (at least on the cable cos that support it on TiVo).

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The real solution here is to "unofficially support" it. They would not provide customer support for issues related to 2-tuners but the TCFers would have little to complain about.
Yup.

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They will probably get very little. With the exception of the few idiots who abuse the system
It's not the users' fault that TiVo made this boneheaded decision.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:06 PM   #28
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Real or imagined it does not matter. The simple fact is that the 2 tuner is technically capable of streaming to the Mini and so it should be supported. I wonder how many returns they will get of 4 tuner boxes just so someone can initially pair to a Mini.
You're confusing the ability to stream from with the ability to act as a host. The Mini can stream from a 2 tuner box just fine. However the 2 tuner box is not properly equipped to act as a Mini host. Even with dynamic tuner allocation it still wont work as expected.

I seriously doubt many people will attempt the 4 tuner buy/return tick just to get the Mini working with a 2 tuner box. You'd be much better off just selling the 2 tuner and buying a 4 tuner. The upgrade would only cost you ~$200 and you'd gain a tuner in the process and possibly save some money by returning a cable box at the secondary location.

Now if you are an OTA user then you'll just have to wait. TiVo has a new OTA capable unit coming. But until then you have no options that involve the Mini.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:08 PM   #29
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The real solution here is to "unofficially support" it. They would not provide customer support for issues related to 2-tuners but the TCFers would have little to complain about.
That would be cool. I wonder is there is some backdoor or way to spoof a 2 tuner into presenting itself to the Mini as a host?
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:17 PM   #30
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You're confusing the ability to stream from with the ability to act as a host. The Mini can stream from a 2 tuner box just fine. However the 2 tuner box is not properly equipped to act as a Mini host. Even with dynamic tuner allocation it still wont work as expected.

I seriously doubt many people will attempt the 4 tuner buy/return tick just to get the Mini working with a 2 tuner box. You'd be much better off just selling the 2 tuner and buying a 4 tuner. The upgrade would only cost you ~$200 and you'd gain a tuner in the process and possibly save some money by returning a cable box at the secondary location.

Now if you are an OTA user then you'll just have to wait. TiVo has a new OTA capable unit coming. But until then you have no options that involve the Mini.
I think you underestimate the determined and no .... I'm not confused. They created the wrong product. It's as simple as that. They should either make it work with 2 tuner boxes or create an app for Roku/Apple TV that works with the Stream.

They ought to tell folks what the plan is for OTA otherwise they may be determined enough to do the swap.
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