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Old 03-22-2013, 01:39 PM   #121
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apparentlee noebodie kayrz. aisle just maik up meye oawn werdz tue.
Now you are being pedantic. Look that word up. The guy put an "e" where it didn't belong and you've almost had a stroke over it. People use shorthand for products all the time. Pretty small potatoes to everyone but yourself.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:39 PM   #122
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You keep ignoring statements from people here that dynamic tuner allocation is planned and will get rid of that restriction.

Also, every document/setup page/info page I ever looked at on the TiVo site about the Mini said it uses a tuner permanently.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:43 PM   #123
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You keep ignoring statements from people here that dynamic tuner allocation is planned and will get rid of that restriction.

Also, every document/setup page/info page I ever looked at on the TiVo site about the Mini said it uses a tuner permanently.
TiVo plans lots of things and then fails to deliver. No one should buy a TiVo product based on promised future functionality that may or may not ever materialize.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:44 PM   #124
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TiVo plans lots of things and then fails to deliver. No one should buy a TiVo product based on promised future functionality that may or may not ever materialize.
That's true. They are getting so beat up in the press over the Mini already, if they fail to deliver dynamic tuners, this product will probably fail.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:47 PM   #125
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In this case they will follow through because their competition has dynamic tuner allocation and their MSO partners need it.

One good thing about the current DVR market is that the other options have finally pulled ahead of TiVo and it's putting pressure on them to catch up. They were without competition for a while and they let the product stagnate. Now that the MSO DVR offerings have leapfrogged them in key areas they're actually investing in R&D again.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:52 PM   #126
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Yes, I'm just discovering the lack of dynamic tuner allocation on the mini. It effectively means the permanent loss of a tuner on the XL4/P4 if you ever want live TV via the mini. Actually, the loss of 1 tuner per mini. This is not really disclosed by Tivo in their marketing, and frankly sales people and tech people at Tivo are incorrectly describing it (I have ticket numbers as proof). I honestly think that this tuner loss is a serious constraint, and will prevent the mini from truly allowing a whole home solution that Tivo so desperately wants and needs to remain competitive.
You only lose a tuner for each Mini if you plan on having both Minis need access to live TV at the same time. If that is never the case then you can share one tuner between the Minis.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #127
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In this case they will follow through because their competition has dynamic tuner allocation and their MSO partners need it.

One good thing about the current DVR market is that the other options have finally pulled ahead of TiVo and it's putting pressure on them to catch up. They were without competition for a while and they let the product stagnate. Now that the MSO DVR offerings have leapfrogged them in key areas they're actually investing in R&D again.
I think you hit the nail on the head.

As late as the introduction of the Series 3 platform TiVo pushed the market forward, but then something happened. Maybe it was a focus on defending their intellectual property, maybe it was a lack of resources or a combination of both. But the MSO’s have definitely caught up and in some instances surpassed what TiVo provides.

The argument has changed from “you simply cannot get this functionality anywhere else at any price” to “the price of the product is actually very similar to what the cable companies offer over the long run.”

On the bright side, it seems like we may be entering in new growth phase for Tivo. It has been good to see the TiVo Stream, TiVo Mini, MRS, and the P4 product line over the last 18 months… But none of these are ground breaking achievements, they are just products that keep them competitive.

Do not misunderstand; I do still think TiVo is very competitive. But the entire industry is moving forward very quickly. Keep up or get left behind.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:45 PM   #128
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the entire industry is moving forward very quickly. Keep up or get left behind.
Exactly. TiVo finally has competition so they have to innovate or die. I'm really hoping that the next gen Premiere units will finally allow them to fulfill the "one box" promise they made 3 years ago. With a faster CPU that can actually support modern apps for services like Netflix, HBOGo, VUDU, etc... and a complete HDUI I could see this finally happening. Throw in 6 tuners, built in Stream capabilities, user profiles and dynamic tuner allocation for the Mini and they could once again be on top with the most comprehensive whole home solution on the market.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:22 PM   #129
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Exactly. TiVo finally has competition so they have to innovate or die. I'm really hoping that the next gen Premiere units will finally allow them to fulfill the "one box" promise they made 3 years ago. With a faster CPU that can actually support modern apps for services like Netflix, HBOGo, VUDU, etc... and a complete HDUI I could see this finally happening. Throw in 6 tuners, built in Stream capabilities, user profiles and dynamic tuner allocation for the Mini and they could once again be on top with the most comprehensive whole home solution on the market.
There are really very few alternatives to TiVo other than Windows Media Center from a retail perspective that's portable across cable operators. I completely agree with you that the OTT app situation is abysmal and will hopefully be addressed with the improved processing platform. The challenge for TiVo is convincing the content providers (e.g., HBO Go, Amazon, Netflix, etc.) to invest the engineering resources to update their apps to support a relatively small TiVO subscriber base. If TiVo starts demonstrating retail and cable operator growth again in the US, this situation could quickly change. I would like to see TiVo incentivize their app partners to support the platform.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:25 PM   #130
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Amateur Reviews Posted

Speaking of reviews... at least two posters in this thread have published their own thoughts on the Mini via Amazon's review platform.

http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-RA9200-Mi...pr_product_top
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:33 PM   #131
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The competition of course isn't on the retail side; it is from the MSO offerings.

I have a sneaking suspicion the reason we do not have Amazon Live streaming service is that Amazon is not happy with the performance of streaming apps on the current platform. No evidence, but after using the new AOL service – I am more and more convinced!

TiVo will have to address the performance of their OTT apps before content owners are going to take them seriously.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #132
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The challenge for TiVo is convincing the content providers (e.g., HBO Go, Amazon, Netflix, etc.) to invest the engineering resources to update their apps to support a relatively small TiVO subscriber base.
Most of these providers already have Adobe Air based apps for the Samsung Smart TV market, so the development resources required to port them should be minimal. Although TiVo's developer TOS are pretty sh*tty so that could be scaring some of these services away. There could also be business issues stalling their deployment that have nothing to do with technological limitations.

I really hope that the next gen TiVo platform has a beefier CPU that can deal with these apps properly so that we can get more of these OTT apps. If TiVo had Netflix, HBOGo and VUDU, and could run them at acceptable speeds, I'd never even need to change the input on my TV.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:14 PM   #133
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Most of these providers already have Adobe Air based apps for the Samsung Smart TV market, so the development resources required to port them should be minimal. Although TiVo's developer TOS are pretty sh*tty so that could be scaring some of these services away. There could also be business issues stalling their deployment that have nothing to do with technological limitations.

I really hope that the next gen TiVo platform has a beefier CPU that can deal with these apps properly so that we can get more of these OTT apps. If TiVo had Netflix, HBOGo and VUDU, and could run them at acceptable speeds, I'd never even need to change the input on my TV.
Excellent point on Samsung using the same development platform. I would love to see TiVo form some sort of app alliance with them.

I suspect that the developers ToS are different for their major partners.

I would say with near certainty that the new platforms will have processors that meet or exceed what we see in the Mini.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:56 PM   #134
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You keep ignoring statements from people here that dynamic tuner allocation is planned and will get rid of that restriction.

Also, every document/setup page/info page I ever looked at on the TiVo site about the Mini said it uses a tuner permanently.
Really? As others have said, "planned" is meaningless. No value whatsoever. "Released" means something. Or, "planned - and if we don't deliver it we give you your money back - even if it's 6 months later". Otherwise, it's just a stab in the dark as to what, when, how and with what requirements they will deliver.

As for being clear, the ONLY statements I'm aware of are "The TiVo Mini requires the use of a dedicated tuner on your 4-tuner DVR to stream live TV. Mini does not work with TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL.". What exactly does that mean? Especially in light of the absolute fact that (again, I have ticket/reference numbers as proof) Tivo sales and tech people themselves are confused about what it means.

They are, IMHO being deliberately deceptive in order to minimize the public transparency that what they delivered is getting close to, but still inferior to, what others (including MSOs) offer in terms of whole home solutions.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:22 PM   #135
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"The TiVo Mini requires the use of a dedicated tuner on your 4-tuner DVR to stream live TV. Mini does not work with TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL.". What exactly does that mean? Especially in light of the absolute fact that (again, I have ticket/reference numbers as proof) Tivo sales and tech people themselves are confused about what it means.
If the TiVo sales people had been properly trained then it wouldn't have been an issue. Once you see how it works, and that there is an option on the 4 tuner TiVo to dedicate 0, 1 or 2 tuners to network live TV, it makes perfect sense.

I think this whole Mini launch was a bit botched. The delay, the accidental early release by BestBuy, the improper training, missing accessories, etc... Hopefully it will all come together and future customers will get better information when they call to order or ask questions.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:29 PM   #136
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If the TiVo sales people had been properly trained then it wouldn't have been an issue. Once you see how it works, and that there is an option on the 4 tuner TiVo to dedicate 0, 1 or 2 tuners to network live TV, it makes perfect sense.

I think this whole Mini launch was a bit botched. The delay, the accidental early release by BestBuy, the improper training, missing accessories, etc... Hopefully it will all come together and future customers will get better information when they call to order or ask questions.
From an "understanding" point of view, I think you're very right. However, I truly do at this point believe Tivo is deliberately misleading people. I know many will not agree, but that's my current opinion.

The one thing it doesn't change is that the loss of a tuner for recording is still a big deal - no way to get around it.

Totally agree that Tivo horribly screwed up this product release.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:38 PM   #137
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The one thing it doesn't change is that the loss of a tuner for recording is still a big deal - no way to get around it.
I agree. And I honestly didn't think that TiVo was even going to release the Mini at retail until that was fixed. But obviously they felt there was enough of a market for it, even in it's current state, to take the chance. And judging by the fact that most users on this forum who have actually bought one are happy with the purchase I think they were right.

It may not do everything we'd hoped but it's a first step in the right direction. This time last year your only option was to buy a second TiVo which would have cost 2x as much and drawn 3x as much power. (not to mention size, heat, noise, etc...) It's not perfect, but we're getting there.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:42 PM   #138
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From an "understanding" point of view, I think you're very right. However, I truly do at this point believe Tivo is deliberately misleading people. I know many will not agree, but that's my current opinion.

The one thing it doesn't change is that the loss of a tuner for recording is still a big deal - no way to get around it.

Totally agree that Tivo horribly screwed up this product release.
They clearly state in RED on their Mini page the following:

"The TiVo Mini requires the use of a dedicated tuner on your 4-tuner DVR to stream live TV."

http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-mi...me_mantle_mini
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:46 PM   #139
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Rather than chiding the consumer for not properly interpreting that information (while it says "dedicated' some might simply believe this means it is using the tuner when the Mini is watching live TV) maybe you should chide TiVo support for not even understanding this very important limitation of their own product.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:48 PM   #140
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Dan, I think the point is that it might be a neat addition for some people here, but it's hardly fulfilling either the promise - or the gap - that Tivo needs to deal with. Frankly, I'm very torn about the product. I'm really impressed with the speed of the unit. I mean really impressed. It's the fastest Tivo product I've ever used - bar none. The THD an the premier are dogs in terms of performance. This thing is really fast for most things so far. However, balancing that out is the loss of a tuner. That is a killer. It's like there is no in between. It's both really good, and really bad.

And to add to that, Tivo themselves has been absolutely horrible, terrible, totally unacceptable in their internal knowledge, etc of the mini. I have never in my 51 years seen a product so terribly described, inaccurately marketed and sold, and incompetently sold and supported. I mean that very literally. I'm a very senior technology leader, working with a myriad of technology in very very large enterprises. And this is, considering both corporate and consumer technology, the very worst supported and described release I've ever ever seen.

Frankly, I think Tivo is in turmoil. I don't think revenues are there sufficiently to support the kind of investment required for real innovation delivered with quality. And the market cap is in question given the rapidly changing environment where core Tivo functionality is being replaced by other mediums. I hate to see that, because when it works and in the right situations, this is great technology. But if Tivo can't get this right, it's not looking good.

JMHO
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:50 PM   #141
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Rather than chiding the consumer for not properly interpreting that information (while it says "dedicated' some might simply believe this means it is using the tuner when the Mini is watching live TV) maybe you should chide TiVo support for not even understanding this very important limitation of their own product.
That is exactly correct. Especially when the consumer wants to confirm the definition and calls Tivo to ask, and gets conflicting and inaccurate information.

Or, we could simply blame the people who spend their money on gaps created by poor documentation, extremely poor support, untrained staff, and inaccurate responses from the company who designs, manufactures, distributes, sells, and (supposedly) supports the product.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:53 PM   #142
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...I have never in my 51 years seen a product so terribly described, inaccurately marketed and sold, and incompetently sold and supported...
JMHO
I see you've never encountered the wonderful Ceton Echo then I presume?
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:55 PM   #143
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I see you've never encountered the wonderful Ceton Echo then I presume?
No, fortunately I have not.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:03 PM   #144
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Rather than chiding the consumer for not properly interpreting that information (while it says "dedicated' some might simply believe this means it is using the tuner when the Mini is watching live TV) maybe you should chide TiVo support for not even understanding this very important limitation of their own product.
I don't mean to absolve Tivo support at all for their incorrect answers. I guess I'm just more comfortable always doing my own homework using the published product descriptions and specifications when researching a potential purchase. At least published information has (generally) been reviewed by somebody who knows the product. I've rarely had any luck getting accurate information from sales people in general, much less call center employees. So I no longer bother.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:14 PM   #145
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I don't mean to absolve Tivo support at all for their incorrect answers. I guess I'm just more comfortable always doing my own homework using the published product descriptions and specifications when researching a potential purchase. At least published information has (generally) been reviewed by somebody who knows the product. I've rarely had any luck getting accurate information from sales people in general, much less call center employees. So I no longer bother.
I would agree about doing your own research, except I did review all of the product descriptions and specifications. They are woefully inadequate. And with such a very very narrow focused quantity of products, if the sales staff does not understand the equipment and services they are talking about they should not be employed. Period.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:57 AM   #146
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troll?

i just finished reading another string of arguments about sales staff from wmhjr. Same crap about sales staff. Shut up and buy dude or dont. Most of us are smart enuf togather info and decide to buy but its taken with a grain of salt. remember the world is a grey area, not stiff rights and wrong that you agitate on these forums

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I would agree about doing your own research, except I did review all of the product descriptions and specifications. They are woefully inadequate. And with such a very very narrow focused quantity of products, if the sales staff does not understand the equipment and services they are talking about they should not be employed. Period.

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Old 03-23-2013, 09:16 AM   #147
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i just finished reading another string of arguments about sales staff from wmhjr. Same crap about sales staff. Shut up and buy dude or dont. Most of us are smart enuf togather info and decide to buy but its taken with a grain of salt. remember the world is a grey area, not stiff rights and wrong that you agitate on these forums
thanks. I really appreciate your key insights about how the world works, and how apparently companies should be given a free pass when they fail. BTW, you might want to take a class on English as a first language. Not entirely sure what that run-on sentence really meant. But, it's nice to see that different opinions are valued from you. Especially since you've contributed so much over the course of the past few months that you've been here. Maybe you also missed where I thanked some other contributors for the civil discussion - something that some people are clearly incapable of having.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:44 AM   #148
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Exactly. TiVo finally has competition so they have to innovate or die.
At retail? Where?

IMO, the MSO competition is a totally separate market.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:17 AM   #149
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At retail? Where?

IMO, the MSO competition is a totally separate market.
Why do you think the MSO competition is a separate market? I don't quite understand that. My comparisons are always Tivo vs MSO offering. In discussions with friends and guests at my home, the conversations are always MSO vs Tivo.

It's all about what "service" and at what "price" the consumer gets, correct? Not about whether it's a retail vs MSO.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:47 PM   #150
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Why do you think the MSO competition is a separate market? I don't quite understand that. My comparisons are always Tivo vs MSO offering. In discussions with friends and guests at my home, the conversations are always MSO vs Tivo.

It's all about what "service" and at what "price" the consumer gets, correct? Not about whether it's a retail vs MSO.
You are right, MSOs are not a separate market.

TiVo is in direct competition with the MSOs. TiVos replace the MSO boxes. This is exactly what the MSOs do not want, because it cuts into their monthly revenue. And, unfortunately, the MSOs have a huge budget for advertising and successful in pushing their product. As I have stated before, TiVo has to increase their advertising, big time.
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