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Old 03-20-2013, 12:29 AM   #1
alexksj
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Problems with TiVo mini through Gigabit switch

Hi,

I just got a Tivo mini to connect to my XL4, but I ran into various issues with my networking setup. Originally I had the XL4 directly wired to a Netgear WNDR3700v2 router, which was wired to a Trendnet TEG-s50g Gigabit switch, which was wired to the Tivo mini. To emphasize, there is no Wifi in the mix. The mini worked immediately after first setup, but every day since then it stopped finding the XL4. The error is "The XL4 DVR cannot be found" with error codes C421 and C422. Each time the mini started working again after a wild combination of reboots and reconnects to Tivo service.
Today I got it to work again by removing the switch and directly connecting the mini to the router. This is not a permanent solution, I have other wired boxes next to the mini that need the connection.

Are there any known issues with the mini and wired switches? Everything is in the same subnet. Any recommended settings on router & switches?

Thanks,
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:37 AM   #2
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If you continue to have trouble you can always just enable MoCA on the XL4 and use coax instead of ethernet on the Mini to connect to it. If nothing else it will give you another data point to compare against.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:23 AM   #3
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I couldn't get my Mini to connect to a Cisco gigabit switch. I used MOCA instead but it's troubling because I may have an instance in the future where MOCA isn't available.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by alexksj View Post
Hi,

I just got a Tivo mini to connect to my XL4, but I ran into various issues with my networking setup. Originally I had the XL4 directly wired to a Netgear WNDR3700v2 router, which was wired to a Trendnet TEG-s50g Gigabit switch, which was wired to the Tivo mini. To emphasize, there is no Wifi in the mix. The mini worked immediately after first setup, but every day since then it stopped finding the XL4. The error is "The XL4 DVR cannot be found" with error codes C421 and C422. Each time the mini started working again after a wild combination of reboots and reconnects to Tivo service.
Today I got it to work again by removing the switch and directly connecting the mini to the router. This is not a permanent solution, I have other wired boxes next to the mini that need the connection.

Are there any known issues with the mini and wired switches? Everything is in the same subnet. Any recommended settings on router & switches?

Thanks,
Alex
hmmm kinda funny that you bring this up, because I also had issues with the mini connected to a netgear gig switch. Same issues you had, so i ended up using Moca because that's how my Elite is connected to my network so I thought maybe that was the problem. Since then, it's worked perfectly.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:40 AM   #5
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My Minis were fine connected to my Dlink gigabit switches.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #6
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Hmmm. Looks like I'll be another test case. I'll be installing my 2nd mini soon and had planned to do so via a D-Link gigabit switch that is bridged off my P4. MoCA is also an option, but the switch is already there for other uses and there is a Cat 5e run from that switch to the TV where I'll be installing the new Mini, so I figured I may as well use it.

Is it just me or is it starting to sound like MoCA is the more reliable connection for Minis?
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:25 AM   #7
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My Mini is connected directly to one of my gigabit DLINK router ports and I haven't had any problems.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:34 PM   #8
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Is it just me or is it starting to sound like MoCA is the more reliable connection for Minis?
Yeah it sounds a lot like how DirecTV says their DeCA system is the only way to get whole home and their Genie clients to work, even though many more technically inclined people know that their so called "unsupported" hookup with ethernet works just fine.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:17 PM   #9
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Yeah it sounds a lot like how DirecTV says their DeCA system is the only way to get whole home and their Genie clients to work, even though many more technically inclined people know that their so called "unsupported" hookup with ethernet works just fine.
Nobody is saying ethernet doesn't or shouldn't work. I'm just noting a few data points starting to show up here where people are having trouble with it for whatever reason. Understood that there are other members posting here that aren't having any problems.

I also recall a few articles on the Mini that stated that MoCA was the "preferred" or "recommended" connection per Tivo. But I don't actually see anything to that effect on the support pages of Tivo's website. Everything there seems to say use wired ethernet or MoCA with no stated preference.

I'll be trying it with the ethernet switch first, but will not hesitate to switch to MoCA if I have problems.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:49 PM   #10
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After running my two Elites and two Minis on Ethernet for a few days, I'm running them on MoCa for a few days. Then I will try everything on wireless bridges.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:58 PM   #11
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Is there any more information what kind of protocols Tivo is using over Ethernet? It seems arbitrary that wired Ethernet is required, because the latest Wifi protocols easily outrun 100-baseT. TiVo must do some creative things on the physical layer of Ethernet to require these limitations, and this also translates into implicit limitations for wired Ethernet hardware. Hubs? Switches? Routers? Tunnelling? Ethernet over power line? Tivo needs to be more clear on what infrastructure is supported. My switch at least seems to be on shaky ground.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:54 PM   #12
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Nobody is saying ethernet doesn't or shouldn't work. I'm just noting a few data points starting to show up here where people are having trouble with it for whatever reason. Understood that there are other members posting here that aren't having any problems.

I also recall a few articles on the Mini that stated that MoCA was the "preferred" or "recommended" connection per Tivo. But I don't actually see anything to that effect on the support pages of Tivo's website. Everything there seems to say use wired ethernet or MoCA with no stated preference.

I'll be trying it with the ethernet switch first, but will not hesitate to switch to MoCA if I have problems.
I agree. That's not why I made that comment. It was more an implication of DirecTV, not TiVo. What I was trying to say was when DTV released their whole home they just decided to limit it to DECA instead of "supporting" ethernet to avoid any customer issues, confusion, etc. Kind of like how TiVo is limiting the mini to a four tuner to avoid unnecessary added tech support woes.

i personally applaud tivo for allowing both
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by TRENDnet website
GREENnet technology reduces power consumption when:
Ethernet port is not in use
Connected device is turned off
Connected device is in power-saving mode
Based on Ethernet cable length
I wonder if the Trendnet switch is shutting down the port, because the Mini has been idle / asleep, and is not recognizing that the Mini has woken back up. You can easily verify this by connecting directly to the Netgear. (edit: ops I see you already did that, and it works). I'd go with replacing the switch.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:10 PM   #14
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I wonder if the Trendnet switch is shutting down the port, because the Mini has been idle / asleep, and is not recognizing that the Mini has woken back up. You can easily verify this by connecting directly to the Netgear. (edit: ops I see you already did that, and it works). I'd go with replacing the switch.
I have since found out that the same errors happen with the direct connection to the Netgear router. I switched to Moca as a last resort, hopefully this will be it. The help text for Moca on the XL4 is misleading, it makes it sound that you can't have Moca and Ethernet at the same time. It seems to work fine, though.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:10 PM   #15
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Glad you found a solution that works for you. The techie is me is curious as to the root cause, but hey, you got it working, and that is what is important.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:37 AM   #16
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FWIW - I have two Trendnet green 16 port switched and have had no issues with my Minis.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #17
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what does one need

If one has an XL4, and a mini, will the XL4 provide enough (assuming connected to ethernet and the coax) for the mini to be able to use MoCa stand alone, or does the mini also need a MoCa adaptor to work AND have to be connected via Ethernet?
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:02 PM   #18
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If one has an XL4, and a mini, will the XL4 provide enough (assuming connected to ethernet and the coax) for the mini to be able to use MoCa stand alone, or does the mini also need a MoCa adaptor to work AND have to be connected via Ethernet?
I'm not sure what you mean by "providing enough" but yes, if your XL4 is Ethernet connected then you do NOT need any MoCA adapters for the Minis, they have MoCA capability built into them. In this scenario the XL4 becomes an Ethernet to MoCA bridge, so that the traffic to and from the Minis is confined to the MoCA connection unless an internet connection is needed, in which case it traverses MoCA, goes out Ethernet from the XL4 and gets to the internet.

The primary advantage of using MoCA is that it offloads the sizeable network bandwidth used by video streaming from the rest of your wired Ethernet network. If you have a couple of Minis streaming it could easily add up to 50mbps or more of constant bandwidth on the LAN.... which may or may not cause issues with your other devices.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:18 PM   #19
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The primary advantage of using MoCA is that it offloads the sizeable network bandwidth used by video streaming from the rest of your wired Ethernet network. If you have a couple of Minis streaming it could easily add up to 50mbps or more of constant bandwidth on the LAN.... which may or may not cause issues with your other devices.
I guess I don't understand this. Ultimately you are bridging MoCA with ethernet through your router so as far as the router is concerned it sees the same amount of IP traffic either way, so I don't see how using MoCA alleviates overall bandwidth.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:32 PM   #20
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I guess I don't understand this. Ultimately you are bridging MoCA with ethernet through your router so as far as the router is concerned it sees the same amount of IP traffic either way, so I don't see how using MoCA alleviates overall bandwidth.
Because when the video streams from the XL4 to the mini, it will ONLY go through the coax cable system between your XL4 and mini (or other Premiere if you have it that way too) using MoCA and not through the ethernet port to your router and home LAN.

DirecTV realized this and other possible extra issues, as well as customer confusion possibilities, and made the business decision to only support DeCA (their version of MoCA) and not ethernet, so the added burden on your ethernet network and benefits of MoCA are real.

P.S. - Just do not hook up ethernet and MoCA at the same time on your mini or you'll defeat the purpose I think.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:13 PM   #21
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Because when the video streams from the XL4 to the mini, it will ONLY go through the coax cable system between your XL4 and mini (or other Premiere if you have it that way too) using MoCA and not through the ethernet port to your router and home LAN.

DirecTV realized this and other possible extra issues, as well as customer confusion possibilities, and made the business decision to only support DeCA (their version of MoCA) and not ethernet, so the added burden on your ethernet network and benefits of MoCA are real.

P.S. - Just do not hook up ethernet and MoCA at the same time on your mini or you'll defeat the purpose I think.
Still not getting it. As far as the router is concerned it's all the same. For a normal networking setup you are going to use the same subnet for all devices on your network so they can communicate with each other, and you are also going to have your router assign IP addresses via DHCP on that subnet, or you are manually specifying static IP addresses on that subnet.
Let's say in the minimal case you only have an XL4 and a Mini using MoCA and the XL4 connects to your router. You are still bridging MoCA to ethernet in order for the XL4 and Mini to be able to connect to the internet, so even in simplest case you are always bridging MoCA to wired ethernet.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:28 PM   #22
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Still not getting it. As far as the router is concerned it's all the same. For a normal networking setup you are going to use the same subnet for all devices on your network so they can communicate with each other, and you are also going to have your router assign IP addresses via DHCP on that subnet, or you are manually specifying static IP addresses on that subnet.
Let's say in the minimal case you only have an XL4 and a Mini using MoCA and the XL4 connects to your router. You are still bridging MoCA to ethernet in order for the XL4 and Mini to be able to connect to the internet, so even in simplest case you are always bridging MoCA to wired ethernet.
Yes you're bridged but the way I understand it, when you're streaming your video from the XL4 to the Mini and you're using MoCA, it sends the signal directly through the coax from XL4 to mini, bypassing your router attached to the ethernet connection of your XL4. If you were using ethernet on your mini, the only way it could communicate with your XL4 would be through your ethernet LAN, which includes your router, thus possibly bogging it down with the extra bandwidth of the video stream.

I "think" when you bridge it and install a mini via MoCA that you're correct that it then assigns an IP, etc. from the router, but once it's setup and the 2 tivo devices are communicating with each other via MoCA, then as I said the stream goes direct through coax to the mini, not needing the router & ethernet at all unless it needs to go out to the internet. At that point it goes MoCA to XL4 which "bridges it" over to it's ethernet port and out to the router, modem, WAN, etc.

Experts, do I have that right, or am I confused on how all this works as well?
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:23 PM   #23
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Still not getting it. As far as the router is concerned it's all the same. For a normal networking setup you are going to use the same subnet for all devices on your network so they can communicate with each other, and you are also going to have your router assign IP addresses via DHCP on that subnet, or you are manually specifying static IP addresses on that subnet.
Let's say in the minimal case you only have an XL4 and a Mini using MoCA and the XL4 connects to your router. You are still bridging MoCA to ethernet in order for the XL4 and Mini to be able to connect to the internet, so even in simplest case you are always bridging MoCA to wired ethernet.
If the traffic is between the XL4 and the Mini over coax using MoCA then the router and ethernet switches should NEVER see the traffic. Unicast traffic will only travel between two devices on the same physical subnet, it should never be "broadcast" to the entire connected network. Not ever.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:02 AM   #24
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Cool, thanks for clearing that up, jmpage2!
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:52 AM   #25
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It' no different if you have the Mini and Xl4 connected through a switch, and one port of that switch is connected to the router. The traffic between the Mini and the XL4 will stay in that switch and won't go through the router unless it is accessing the internet, or other devices on the network where the path to access them is through the router.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:00 AM   #26
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... Unicast traffic will only travel between two devices on the same physical subnet, it should never be "broadcast" to the entire connected network. Not ever.
Just minor nit picking...

Unicast traffic will only be seen on the sender's port and the port required to reach the receiver, this is not a subnet, a subnet is referring to an IP subnet defined by a network mask.

Broadcast traffic will be transmitted/sent on ALL ports of the switch
Multicast traffic IF your switch is multicast aware and configured will be transmitted only on the port(s) participating in the multicast traffic, otherwise it will be broadcast to all ports.

I also see the same gripes about WiFi and why TiVo doesn't support WiFi for streaming even though WiFi has enough available bandwidth to support streaming. I believe the simple reason is, in residence without careful planing there can be too many sources of interference and weak signals that can degrade the WiFi signal to a point were it cannot reliably support streaming and TiVo simply doesn't have the man power, ability, or desire to troublshoot somebody's wireless network.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:29 AM   #27
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TL, you are correct of course. I tend to use subnet and "segment" interchangeably these days, at least when talking about this uncomplicated stuff.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:22 PM   #28
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I've had my 2nd Mini running for about 10 days now off an Ethernet switch that's bridged off my P4. It's working fine, except that when I first go to use it, it's unresponsive to remote control commands for about the first 25-35 seconds. That may not sound like long, but it seems like an eternity when you're pushing remote buttons with nothing happening. My other Mini connected by MoCA is responsive immediately.

I'm wondering if its taking awhile for the switch to realize that the Mini has "woken up". I think I'm going to try it with MoCA.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:28 PM   #29
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I've had my 2nd Mini running for about 10 days now off an Ethernet switch that's bridged off my P4. It's working fine, except that when I first go to use it, it's unresponsive to remote control commands for about the first 25-35 seconds. That may not sound like long, but it seems like an eternity when you're pushing remote buttons with nothing happening. My other Mini connected by MoCA is responsive immediately.

I'm wondering if its taking awhile for the switch to realize that the Mini has "woken up". I think I'm going to try it with MoCA.
Try a different switch. When I had my two Minis on Dlink Gigabit switches, they were responsive right away, just like from MoCA and wireless bridges.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:47 PM   #30
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Try a different switch. When I had my two Minis on Dlink Gigabit switches, they were responsive right away, just like from MoCA and wireless bridges.
I actually happen to be using a D-link Gigabit switch. I don't have any other switches. It's a newer switch that supposedly has some energy saving features, so I do wonder if there's a setting I could change on the switch to disable energy saver mode. I suspect that could be causing the delayed responsiveness.

In the end it's going to be pretty much academic to me if MoCA works better.
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