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Old 03-13-2013, 08:34 AM   #31
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Good for Directv. It still does not mean that it has true value.
I think the point being made is that you are comparing apples to oranges. The boxes that the Mini competes with don't have many of those Roku/ATV features either. Comparing the Mini directly to boxes like Roku doesn't make much sense since those boxes don't yet have any capability to consume live or recorded TV.

A lot of people simply want a "full tivo" type experience in other rooms of the house but don't want to runt a cable card and spend $500 on a Premiere with lifetime.

The mini more or less gets those users there for 1/2 the price, uses less power, and does not require a cable card rental or outlet fee.

Would it do better if it had Netflix? Absolutely, but I doubt it impacts the value proposition for most customers.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:07 AM   #32
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That's simply not true for existing clients.
Okay, fair enough. I'm not a DTV customer, so I only have access to the information they provide. If they don't honor their published terms then that's a problem.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I think the point being made is that you are comparing apples to oranges. The boxes that the Mini competes with don't have many of those Roku/ATV features either. Comparing the Mini directly to boxes like Roku doesn't make much sense since those boxes don't yet have any capability to consume live or recorded TV.

A lot of people simply want a "full tivo" type experience in other rooms of the house but don't want to runt a cable card and spend $500 on a Premiere with lifetime.

The mini more or less gets those users there for 1/2 the price, uses less power, and does not require a cable card rental or outlet fee.

Would it do better if it had Netflix? Absolutely, but I doubt it impacts the value proposition for most customers.
Those boxes are made by the cable and satellite companies. So, it's expected that they would not want to give you options that would directly compete with their core business. Tivo on the other hand needs to provide options to survive. This box should make folks want to pony up the asking price for device plus service but it doesn't. It is a far cry from what it needs to be.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:52 AM   #34
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Those boxes are made by the cable and satellite companies. So, it's expected that they would not want to give you options that would directly compete with their core business. Tivo on the other hand needs to provide options to survive. This box should make folks want to pony up the asking price for device plus service but it doesn't. It is a far cry from what it needs to be.
But we know there push is to Cable MSO's so you should expect that direction then
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:30 AM   #35
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But we know there push is to Cable MSO's so you should expect that direction then
And yet for retail market..., they are not tied to cable or satellite... So why not create the best product that you can?

I could understand it if this box was really made for one of the big cable co's but it's not. It's made for retail and Tivo is not tied to a single cable operator. So, it makes no sense for them to not include these features.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:59 AM   #36
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And yet for retail market..., they are not tied to cable or satellite... So why not create the best product that you can?

I could understand it if this box was really made for one of the big cable co's but it's not. It's made for retail and Tivo is not tied to a single cable operator. So, it makes no sense for them to not include these features.
This originally was not made for Retail... Dont forget we never saw the Tivo Preview at Retail and Suddenlink got the Mini before Retail.

I truly believe this product was made for MSO's and adapted for Retail
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:04 PM   #37
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This originally was not made for Retail... Dont forget we never saw the Tivo Preview at Retail and Suddenlink got the Mini before Retail.

I truly believe this product was made for MSO's and adapted for Retail
Either way, it is retail and they're not bound to what the cable co's want.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:07 PM   #38
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Those boxes are made by the cable and satellite companies. So, it's expected that they would not want to give you options that would directly compete with their core business. Tivo on the other hand needs to provide options to survive. This box should make folks want to pony up the asking price for device plus service but it doesn't. It is a far cry from what it needs to be.
In another thread someone indicated that they had been told by a member of the TiVo executive team that they were "working on" Netflix... but no ETA.

Honestly I think that the Mini is always going to lag behind boxes like Roku for access to internet content, but obviously improvements in this area can only help TiVo with sales numbers.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:41 PM   #39
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Either way, it is retail and they're not bound to what the cable co's want.
but they are bound to not make two completely different products to not kill there expenses
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:04 PM   #40
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but they are bound to not make two completely different products to not kill there expenses
Ok, fair enough. Then they should just have divergent firmwares. That would seem to be an easy enough solution. Flip a few lines of code for non MSO boxes. Problem solved.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:53 PM   #41
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Ok, fair enough. Then they should just have divergent firmwares. That would seem to be an easy enough solution. Flip a few lines of code for non MSO boxes. Problem solved.
Yeh i dont think it is that easy. Plus tivo is not exactly flush with cash that they could do all of this. I think it is pretty evident they only have several teams working on certain things at a time
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:03 PM   #42
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Yeh i dont think it is that easy. Plus tivo is not exactly flush with cash that they could do all of this. I think it is pretty evident they only have several teams working on certain things at a time
TiVo is in a business that under spending on development can put them out of business as fast or faster than over spending on development.

I will buy they have done the math/market research and are only willing to spend development money on things they believe will provide an acceptable level of return on their investment.

I do not buy they are restricted because of cash shortages, they are fairly flush due to the law suite settlements.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:20 PM   #43
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TiVo is in a business that under spending on development can put them out of business as fast or faster than over spending on development.

I will buy they have done the math/market research and are only willing to spend development money on things they believe will provide an acceptable level of return on their investment.

I do not buy they are restricted because of cash shortages, they are fairly flush due to the law suite settlements.
Last i saw they are still losing money every qtr
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:24 PM   #44
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Last i saw they are still losing money every qtr
Yep, and there is a reason for it. They seriously put out products that aren't ready. The last several Tivo boxes are proof of that.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #45
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Yeh i dont think it is that easy. Plus tivo is not exactly flush with cash that they could do all of this. I think it is pretty evident they only have several teams working on certain things at a time
They must really have you fooled then. Easy enough to flip a few bits of code on what amounts to the same platform. And the apps can be pushed as they become available. If its the Cable co's that are keeping it from happening then its really shame on Tivo here cause these are retail boxes and not to be treated exactly the same as MSO boxes.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #46
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Last i saw they are still losing money every qtr
Yes they were, but losing money and not having money are 2 different things. At the beginning their investors supplied lots of money and then took it on the chin and now they have gotten some fairly large settlements so they still have some cash to work with.
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Last edited by atmuscarella : 03-13-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:47 PM   #47
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$620 million at the end of January.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:00 PM   #48
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$620 million at the end of January.
FWIW, they will be cash flow positive this year including their extremely high litigation and R&D expense. Once they settle or litigate their latest infringers (TWC and Motorola/Google/Arris), they will be extremely cash flow positive.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:02 PM   #49
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David Pogue Reviews the Mini

TiVo Goes Wandering, On the Road And at Home

He misses the fact that the Premiere 4/XL4 can act as a MoCA bridge which appears to add $115 to his cost numbers.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:18 AM   #50
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TiVo Goes Wandering, On the Road And at Home

He misses the fact that the Premiere 4/XL4 can act as a MoCA bridge which appears to add $115 to his cost numbers.
Another small error -- he claims you need a Stream to use the iPhone app as a remote control.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:15 PM   #51
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Comparing the price of the Mini to that of the Genie client doesn't work at all. DirecTV does not sell the client, the $99 is a lease fee. If you cancel you have to return them or have your credit card charged -- Google and feel the hurt with these people.

The pricing and the four tuner requirement of the Mini are both an effort by TiVo to be profitable. Some on here might complain it isn't a good value, but others are just happy that TiVo is still in business and releasing new problems that enhance the experience. I wonder how long the Mini will stay at this price. I've always thought it made sense to offer a product at a higher price and then discount it later. Your customers will always welcome a lower price, the same can't be said for raising it.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #52
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How much could they lower it, $20? If lifetime is still going to be $150 a $20 decrease isn't much of an incentive to wait.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:07 PM   #53
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I've seen people wait months or even a year to save a few bucks on an electronics purchase. If you can wait that long you probably don't need it. The use I get out of a piece of gear almost always outweighs the slight "premium" for getting it soon after release.

I could have saved about $800 on my Plasma if I had waited until they blew them out at the end of the year when I bought it.... but $800 was more than a fair price to pay to enjoy 65" of TV goodness for that 6-8 months.... to me anyway.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:59 AM   #54
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Cnet's First Look at the TiVo Mini (Video)

Cnet’s Josh Goldman (@superboxmonkey) does an excellent job of summing up the Mini at a high-level (First Look) in less than 2 minutes ->

http://cnettv.cnet.com/tivo-adds-min...-50142929.html

“This [subscription fee] isn’t entirely out-of-line with the cost of similar setups from other providers but still might be more than some TiVo users are willing to spend.”
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:33 AM   #55
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Except that it has no cost basis...
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:39 AM   #56
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Except that it has no cost basis...
Hmmm... so TiVo has zero recurring cost post the sale of the Mini to the consumer?

That's a nonsensical statement. OTOH, a valid argument could be that the cost should have been built-into the price or that the price is too high.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:48 AM   #57
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Except that it has no cost basis...
The price of a Mini is $250 or $99 + $6/mo for as long as someone wants to use it. Why TiVo decided to charge that amount is irrelevant from a consumer point of view. All that matters is if the cost is acceptable or not. That determination is personal so if you think it costs to much then it does and you should not buy one. If someone else doesn't think it costs to much then they should buy one. Simple as that.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:16 AM   #58
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I get it, you don't have to keep beating this into the ground. I'll stop if you will - we agree that how it's priced doesn't matter, if you want it you'll buy it. Tivo can play games however it wants.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:38 AM   #59
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I get it, you don't have to keep beating this into the ground. I'll stop if you will - we agree that how it's priced doesn't matter, if you want it you'll buy it. Tivo can play games however it wants.
I am kind of locked out of the value discussion when it comes to TiVo's whole home Premiere 4, Mini, & Stream solution as I am OTA only and have an android tablet.

But please do not think I want to dismiss concerns about price.

While I do believe that in the end decisions about value are personal and really should not have much to do with what other people conclusions are, I actually believe posts about why a person thinks something is or isn't worth it's asking price are very valuable.

Regarding what I think about the Mini's price - I think it is over priced & if it did work with my setup I would likely not buy one and stick with multiple DVRs instead, however I see how a person could easily decide it has enough value to justify the price, so TiVo's pricing is likely justified - but only sales will ultimately determine that.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:13 AM   #60
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Hmmm... so TiVo has zero recurring cost post the sale of the Mini to the consumer?
Cost of doing business to support the product? Sure, that's called overhead, or amortized support cost, or whatever you want to call it. Last time I checked I didn't pay Microsoft every month to supply security and functionality improvements for Windows, nor do I pay GM to fix my car under warranty.

Look I get it, you think it's justified many do not, but we all agree that in the current market they can charge whatever they want and it's up to the consumer to decide. But it's not a competitive market right now.
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