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Old 03-14-2013, 01:27 PM   #1
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David Pogue review of Mini and Stream

Pretty fair assessment of what it takes and costs to get and use the Mini and the Stream. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/14/te..._20130314&_r=0
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:47 PM   #2
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Except for him talking about MoCA adapters and an additional cost. No need for that since both a Premiere 4 and a Mini has built in MoCA. All you need is an ethernet connection to the P4 and then the P4 and Mini can be connected over MoCA.

For some reason he doesn't realize that the Mini can use a MoCA connection. He talks about spending $115 for a pair of MoCA adapters so you can connect the Mini. Which is a needless extra cost.
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:29 PM   #3
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Did anyone email him?
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:58 PM   #4
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Did anyone email him?
I emailed him and tweeted to him... no response. Not surprised.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:17 PM   #5
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I emailed him and tweeted to him... no response. Not surprised.
I'll try as well.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #6
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If he doesn't reply, the editor might should be contacted since it is incorrect information.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:44 PM   #7
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If he doesn't reply, the editor might should be contacted since it is incorrect information.
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: March 15, 2013



An earlier version of this column misstated the number of ActionTec MoCa adapters required to use the new TiVo Mini on a home network. Only one adapter is required, not a pair, and only if the TiVo is not close enough to the network router; otherwise, the TiVo can be plugged directly into the router. In addition, the column referred imprecisely to the compatibility of the Mini with various TiVo Premiere models. While it works with the Premiere 4 and XL4, which require a cable card for reception, it is not compatible with older Premiere models connected to an antenna.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:46 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by weavb013 View Post
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: March 15, 2013



An earlier version of this column misstated the number of ActionTec MoCa adapters required to use the new TiVo Mini on a home network. Only one adapter is required, not a pair, and only if the TiVo is not close enough to the network router; otherwise, the TiVo can be plugged directly into the router. In addition, the column referred imprecisely to the compatibility of the Mini with various TiVo Premiere models. While it works with the Premiere 4 and XL4, which require a cable card for reception, it is not compatible with older Premiere models connected to an antenna.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by weavb013 View Post
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: March 15, 2013



An earlier version of this column misstated the number of ActionTec MoCa adapters required to use the new TiVo Mini on a home network. Only one adapter is required, not a pair, and only if the TiVo is not close enough to the network router; otherwise, the TiVo can be plugged directly into the router. In addition, the column referred imprecisely to the compatibility of the Mini with various TiVo Premiere models. While it works with the Premiere 4 and XL4, which require a cable card for reception, it is not compatible with older Premiere models connected to an antenna.
Wouldn't zero adapters be required for MOCA since bought elite and mini have it?
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:52 PM   #10
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Wouldn't zero adapters be required for MOCA since bought elite and mini have it?
Yes, if the Elite is being used as the MoCA bridge. If your Elite is located away from an Ethernet port though you'd still need an adapter to serve as the bridge.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:31 PM   #11
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interesting Pogue agrees with me, the subs fees are ridiculous. Why not fees on the stream ? I guess they just give to me for free, after i pay for it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #12
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http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...-for-the-mini/

TiVo Explains Extra Charge for the Mini
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:39 PM   #13
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I got an email back last night around 11pm from him saying he posted the fix up, but it took until sometime today to post (wasn't posted this morning).
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:39 PM   #14
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http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...-for-the-mini/

TiVo Explains Extra Charge for the Mini
I get them all free with my samsung tv. Poor reasons , just to use access the tivo network, which you already paid for. Lame.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:48 PM   #15
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They could have fees for the stream if you want them. Say, $40 up front and $5 per month?
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:54 PM   #16
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Pogue's Posts: TiVo Explains Extra Charge for the Mini

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...-for-the-mini/
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:20 PM   #17
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The Mini does connect to TiVo’s service — bypassing your main TiVo — for many of its functions. For example, when you access Hulu Plus, YouTube, the search and browse functions, and the music and photo functions, the Mini goes directly to the TiVo mothership online.
Should I pay a monthly fee to Microsoft or HP because I use my HP laptop to watch Netflix?

TiVo's excuses are just plain stupid.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:24 PM   #18
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Should I pay a monthly fee to Microsoft or HP because I use my HP laptop to watch Netflix?

TiVo's excuses are just plain stupid.
All that elimination of the fee would have done is that TiVo would have had to charge even more for the device at retail.

If distributors expect to make a 20% markup and retailers expect to make a 30% markup then TiVo has to sell the hardware for roughly 50% of retail to distributors.

So, when they sell their $99 box for $49 to distributors and then sell someone lifetime service for $149 then TiVo is "netting" about $149 assuming that the Mini costs around $49 to manufacture, package and ship (and considering their small volumes that is entirely possible).

If they sold the box at retail for $199 as many hope, then they would be netting $50 per unit.

Do the math.

Moving the bulk of the "cost" of the Mini to a subscription fee results in a higher profit margin for TiVo.... alternatively if they sold at retail the price might actually be higher than it already is if they are trying to make a specific profit on each unit.

One way of "getting around this" would be if TiVo sold the Mini for a flat retail price but refused to distribute the boxes via resellers like Best Buy and Amazon.

A lot of people are hung up with comparing the cost of the Mini to the cost of ATV or Roku, while failing to acknowledge that neither of those devices allow for real time streaming of ALL of your live and recorded content. Until those things are possible with ATV and Roku it's not really a valid comparison.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:30 PM   #19
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All that elimination of the fee would have done is that TiVo would have had to charge even more for the device at retail.

If distributors expect to make a 20% markup and retailers expect to make a 30% markup then TiVo has to sell the hardware for roughly 50% of retail to distributors.

So, when they sell their $99 box for $49 to distributors and then sell someone lifetime service for $149 then TiVo is "netting" about $149 assuming that the Mini costs around $49 to manufacture, package and ship (and considering their small volumes that is entirely possible).

If they sold the box at retail for $199 as many hope, then they would be netting $50 per unit.

Do the math.

Moving the bulk of the "cost" of the Mini to a subscription fee results in a higher profit margin for TiVo.... alternatively if they sold at retail the price might actually be higher than it already is if they are trying to make a specific profit on each unit.

One way of "getting around this" would be if TiVo sold the Mini for a flat retail price but refused to distribute the boxes via resellers like Best Buy and Amazon.

A lot of people are hung up with comparing the cost of the Mini to the cost of ATV or Roku, while failing to acknowledge that neither of those devices allow for real time streaming of ALL of your live and recorded content. Until those things are possible with ATV and Roku it's not really a valid comparison.
Yep. There's a reason that there are really no user friendly (e.g., not Windows Media Center) retail alternatives to TiVo. Its a very tough business to compete with the cable operators generic offerings.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:36 PM   #20
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Yep. There's a reason that there are really no user friendly (e.g., not Windows Media Center) retail alternatives to TiVo. Its a very tough business to compete with the cable operators generic offerings.
I would have been much happier to see the total cost of the Mini come in at between $149-$199 but I can stomach the $249 price because it still beats the hell out of renting a crappy HD box from Comcrap.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:54 PM   #21
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"First, he reiterated my point that all of TiVo’s rivals, like the Dish Hopper, DirecTV Genie and cable-company boxes, also charge a fee for each second-TV box."

I have been saying this for weeks. They compare the box to the Joey and the Genie. Not the flipping Roku
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:13 PM   #22
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I've got three Rokus now and two Minis. I don't see how they can be compared against each other. In some Ways the Roku offers much more than the Mini. And in some ways the Mini offer much more than the Roku Boxes. But they certainly seem to be aimed at two different markets.

And I could not replace one with the other.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:32 AM   #23
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I've got three Rokus now and two Minis. I don't see how they can be compared against each other. In some Ways the Roku offers much more than the Mini. And in some ways the Mini offer much more than the Roku Boxes. But they certainly seem to be aimed at two different markets.

And I could not replace one with the other.
It's like comparing a Smart Car to an F-250 Super Duty Diesel. They both use roads, but they do two totally different things.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:18 AM   #24
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Completely agree with his conclusions - they charge the fee because they can. It's because they have no real competition in the market and because they want the sub numbers to look good. There's no cost-based justification for it, it's just the profit they want to make.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:39 AM   #25
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Completely agree with his conclusions - they charge the fee because they can. It's because they have no real competition in the market and because they want the sub numbers to look good. There's no cost-based justification for it, it's just the profit they want to make.
And this is different than how any other company operates how? The price of any product has very little to do with cost, price is primarily based on what the market will pay. So I have no idea why anyone thinks TiVo would base their asking price on cost, that is not what happens in capitalism, the asking price is based on what the company believes the market will pay and then adjusted from there based on what the market is actually willing to pay.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:47 AM   #26
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And this is different than how any other company operates how? The price of any product has very little to do with cost, price is primarily based on what the market will pay. So I have no idea why anyone thinks TiVo would base their asking price on cost, that is not what happens in capitalism, the asking price is based on what the company believes the market will pay and then adjusted from there based on what the market is actually willing to pay.
Very well said!
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:58 AM   #27
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Completely agree with his conclusions - they charge the fee because they can. It's because they have no real competition in the market and because they want the sub numbers to look good. There's no cost-based justification for it, it's just the profit they want to make.
The same can be said about every cable/sat company... They all do it so why shouldnt Tivo.

Comcast is the worst
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:13 AM   #28
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And this is different than how any other company operates how? The price of any product has very little to do with cost, price is primarily based on what the market will pay. So I have no idea why anyone thinks TiVo would base their asking price on cost, that is not what happens in capitalism, the asking price is based on what the company believes the market will pay and then adjusted from there based on what the market is actually willing to pay.
Wasn't saying it in a bad way against Tivo, just agreeing with his conclusions. As we've said all along it really doesn't matter how they break it out, if you want to pay $250 you'll do it.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:57 AM   #29
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And this is different than how any other company operates how? The price of any product has very little to do with cost, price is primarily based on what the market will pay. So I have no idea why anyone thinks TiVo would base their asking price on cost, that is not what happens in capitalism, the asking price is based on what the company believes the market will pay and then adjusted from there based on what the market is actually willing to pay.
For new products with no competition, the market will pay whatever some people feel the product is worth to them. But the assumption of our free market economic system is that established products will eventually attract significant competition from functionally similar products at prices that are above the cost of production only by enough for the competitors to stay in business. The extent to which companies are able to circumvent such market forces is the extent to which our system has failed to operate efficiently.
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