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Old 02-07-2013, 08:19 AM   #301
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Also, Lindsey is so much hotter since he cut his hair mid season 2. Yum!

Spoiler:
I hope he comes back.
Spoiler:
He may or may not.

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Old 02-07-2013, 09:04 AM   #302
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The Body, is that the one where
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Joyce dies?
Yes.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #303
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I stalled out on Buffy. I have one more episode and then the Body and I'm not sure I'm ready for that one yet. I've been putting it off.
I don't blame you. The Body is a tough rewatch. I've only done it once, and that was with the commentary on, so the impact was dulled a little.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:52 PM   #304
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I'm back from vacation, so starting up again!

I finished up Angel season 2 before getting into Buffy. The Pylea storyline is definitely the best of what I saw of Angel when I watched it off and on originally. A bunch of great episodes there. I can see why people would start to think that Angel was better than Buffy at that point, it was certainly much more fun than the last four episodes of Buffy season 5. But it is hard to compare, as Buffy is still very good, it is just very heavy. I would definitely not consider Angel to be darker when you look at these two arcs side-by-side.

S05E15 I Was Made to Love You - C
S05E17 Forever - C
S05E18 Intervention - B
S05E19 Tough Love - B

Yep, I skipped The Body. I was getting ready to eat dinner and just couldn't stomach watching it at that point. I will probably go back. Maybe have a nice double-header sucker punch ad watch it after The Gift.

I Was Made to Love You serves better as a lot of set-up for plots down the road than it does as a single episode, but it's ok. Forever is probably better than I give it credit for, but the idea of messed up zombie Joyce freaks me out.

Intervention, well who doesn't love the Buffybot, and I liked Buffy's desert quest. Tough Love had some really good emotional scenes with Buffy and Dawn and then Tara and Willow.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:33 PM   #305
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Yesterday was:

S05E20 - Spiral - D
S05E21 - The Weight of the World - B

The crusaders on the horses was just too ridiculous. Generally I didn't much care for this episode that could have been completely dropped with Glory just nabbing Dawn at Tara's. The episode after was better because of the Willow and Buffy scenes. Getting inside Buffy's mind and how she felt was good.

Today I had the sob-fest.

S05E22 The Gift - A
S05E16 The Body - A

The Gift is not a perfect episode, but is a perfect ending to the show (almost too bad it wasn't) and a perfect final three minutes. I sobbed, like gasping for breath sobbed, even though I knew what was coming. Maybe because I knew what was coming. Getting to finally watch Buffy wallop Glory wasn't too bad either. And since I was already sobbing, it was a good time to watch The Body. Again, not perfect, but so well done and stark, deserves the A.

Season 5 as a whole I didn't like nearly as much as watching the first time through. The season is quite a downer compared to previous seasons. There is much less wit and joy, it is so much more serious. I think watching not knowing what is going to happen you are more wrapped up in the suspense. But knowing the ending, the lack of suspense just left me with a lot of bummer episodes.

I read (maybe in this thread? or on wikipedia?) that Dawn was Buffy's love interest this season. Maybe so, but Dawn sucked. Unlike in season 2, where we felt the pain of Angel's turn and Buffy's suffering, we were given no reason to like Dawn. She was just the typical whiny little sister. I wasn't as invested in caring about her.

I bet it will end up ranking pretty high once I average my episode scores, but as a whole it just left me feeling not great. Great work at times, but really depressing.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:13 PM   #306
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Another thought on season 5 overall is that I never really liked how they changed Anya's character. In season 3 and season 4, she was blunt and forward while still being a real person, but in season 5, she's practically a robot. She goes from being someone just figuring out how to be around other people again to someone who doesn't know how to do anything. They magnified 10x all of the qualities that made her good for laughs, but I think they lost a complex, interesting character in the process. (It's similar to what they did with Ross on Friends, took a geeky, lovable goofball and magnified everything so he became a shrieking, hate-worthy goofpsycho.)

I started Angel season 3, but I think I'm going to finish out Buffy, then go back to Angel. I don't want to switch back-and-forth a single episode at a time, and if I watch a few in a row of one show, I get wrapped up and don't want to switch off.

Also, does anyone like Darla. Man I cannot stand her character. Is she a fan favorite and I'm the weird one? Her voice, her acting, her lines, everything is just the worst.

S06E01 Bargaining Part 1 - C
S06E02 Bargaining Part 2 - C
S06E03 After Life - C
S06E04 Flooded - B
S06E05 Life Serial - B
S06E06 All the Way - B
S06E07 Once More, with Feeling - A

The season starts out dark, dank and depressing, just like the second half of season 5. Whoever dressed Buffy for her funeral should be shot as she came out of her grave looking like the girl in The Ring.

But, in the fourth and fifth episodes we get back to a little bit of the fun and wit we've been missing for quiet a while. Buffy vs. the Mummy hand is classic. I like the intro of the Trio as competent, yet absurd. I like All the Way, even though it's a lot about Dawn, because of the misdirection with the old guy and getting back to vampire roots.

The musical I loved. I haven't seen it in a few years. My favorite is the Anya and Xander number, for the lyrics and the dancing. The climactic number (Buffy in the Bronze) was a little weak and disappointing, but all in all it was a good episode to move along a number of storylines and bring some fun and emotion back into the show.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:28 PM   #307
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1) Yes, there are Darla fans. I generally think she is excellent and really enjoyed her parts. She's vital to understanding Angel.

2) One issue I have now with OMWF is that Xander/Anya dance. It's awesome, I love it, but it foreshadows such a STUPID direction the show goes that I can't fully like it anymore.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:37 PM   #308
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2) One issue I have now with OMWF is that Xander/Anya dance. It's awesome, I love it, but it foreshadows such a STUPID direction the show goes that I can't fully like it anymore.
I've already given an upcoming episode an F and I haven't even rewatched it yet. I was/ am very unhappy with how things went with these two.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:46 PM   #309
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I'm all alone, but I'm not going to let that stop me!

S06E08 Tabula Rasa - B
S06E09 Smashed - C
S06E10 Wrecked - C
S06E11 Gone - C
S06E12 Doublemeat Palace - C

Tabula Rasa I thought I'd like a little more than I did, but the funny they developed when they were all together no knowing who they were didn't pay-off because they were all apart when they got their memories back. It was definitely a strong episode, but not A quality.

The next four had really fluctuating quality. I'm not a fan of the after-school special nature of some of these. In fact, it's a little disturbing in some ways how the Scoobies are barely upset with what Willow's been doing. I guess they address that a bit.

Of them, I think I liked Gone the best, because it showed Willow really working on a mystery and had a nice moment with Buffy and Dawn, but I did not care for Buffy acting like a thirteen-year-old boy just because she was invisible. Her hair is adorable though.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:59 PM   #310
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More data analysis!

I compiled my episode ratings and the average was 3.59, which is the lowest of all the seasons! The next lowest is season 1 at 3.67. Season 5 has the most number of D episodes at 3. It was dominated by B episodes, with 10.

From a qualitative perspective, season 4 was helped on a rewatch and season 5 was hurt. Season 4 had lowered expectations, knowing going in it wasn't as strong as 2 & 3 allowed me to appreciate what was good. But Season 5 suffered from knowing what would happen - the dark, depressing tone lacked any suspense and just sucked the fun out of season.

At halfway through, season 6 is averaging 3.50, so falling in just behind season 5. So it is:

3
2
4
1
5

Based on averaging the episode rankings.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:23 PM   #311
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I think season 5 was my favorite behind season 2. It had some missteps, but it actually solidified my life long fandom of serialized storytelling. All of the seasons had serialized elements, but something about S5 just worked on that level for me. I liked Glory as a villain, and how everything escalated slowly and then just exploded in the back half of the seasons. And I thought The Gift was the best finale they did (behind season 2). It had all the right stuff - epic stakes, huge battle, and the sacrifice of the hero. I was still riding high on the show so I probably would have lost my mind if it ended there, but looking back that would have been an awesome last episode. I'm glad we got the other two seasons though.

The Body remains one of the best episodes of any show, in my opinion. It still blows my mind that Joss Whedon didn't at least get a writing nod for that. Awards shows avoid genre shows like the plague, but the episode was legit by any standards (and they nominated him for writing "Hush" the year before so it's not like they're completely against it). I'm sure my connection to the episode stems from the fact that Joyce looked like my mom, and my mom died of a ruptured anyerism (sp), but whatevs. I thought it was extremely well done. I also loved the way the prior episode, which was light and not that intricate, ended with Buffy finding her mom. Pure genius. No one saw that s*** coming.

As for season six, it was definitely darker, but I got where they were going with it. That was the point. In the scope of the characters lives, that was their darkest period. Sure it was depressing to watch, but from a storytelling perspective, it was a smart direction to explore. The twist that Buffy was actually in heaven and was ripped out of it was one of those things that just made you feel like you got punched in the gut, lol. When she's explaining it to Spike you're just like DAMN.

I was also a fan of the musical episode. Not really a musical fan, but as a wanna-be writer, and a fan of Joss Whedon, it was kind of awesome because it was a dream of his and he got to fulfill it. And I thought they did a sick job considering it's not what they do. The story started building from 6.1 and all these different things just came to a head in the musical in a way that elevated it from a gimmick to something worthy of the show.

The rest of season six was kind of "meh", but I loved the last five or six episodes, and the season finale villain.

Ok I'm done.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:42 PM   #312
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I'm all alone, but I'm not going to let that stop me!
I'm still reading along, I just haven't had time to watch any eps for the last few weeks! Your reviews are interesting and make me want to get back to it, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon. But I'm glad you're still going!
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:22 AM   #313
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Same here!
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:06 AM   #314
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I hated Season 6 when it first aired. HATED it. F- for most episodes. It caused me to stop watching the show.

I caught Season 7 a couple years later on FX, went back and watches Season 6 and it all clicked.

It taught me...NEVER doubt Joss Whedon. NEVER.

That's my only contribution...I had to wait until you all got up to Season 6, though.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #315
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I hated Season 6 when it first aired. HATED it. F- for most episodes. It caused me to stop watching the show.

I caught Season 7 a couple years later on FX, went back and watches Season 6 and it all clicked.

It taught me...NEVER doubt Joss Whedon. NEVER.

That's my only contribution...I had to wait until you all got up to Season 6, though.
LOL. I didn't hate Season 6 when it first aired, but I didn't love it either, and I think I'm in the same boat as I was then. I understand what they are doing - that doesn't mean I have to think it is fun to watch or that I think it was a good direction for the show.

It will be interesting to see if I soften to season 7 any, as I really hated most of it during the original airing and haven't watched any of it since.

On season 5, I agree with MrDazzo that it was the most serial of all the seasons, but it was just too dark for me in a show that I liked because of the wit and fun.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:37 PM   #316
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Since I have a bit of an audience, anyone want to chat about the inconsistencies in moral rules of the Buffyverse?

Early in Buffy, it was pretty clear that demon and vampire = evil. Angel was astounding as a rare exception - vampire with a soul.

But as you get further in Buffy, you have demons that are not evil. They are neutral, or even helpful to the cause of good.

Then, you introduce Spike with a chip. He falls in love with Buffy and eventually seeks his own soul. How can an evil being that has no soul decide to want to have a soul. If he makes that decision, doesn't that mean he actually does have a soul all along? How can he love a human, fight for good, and decide he wants to be good without a soul?

Both Buffy and Angel have very clear rules that it is ok to kill a demon, but not ok to kill a human. Yet both shows have very clear examples of demons that are good and exemplary and humans that are evil terrible. What makes a demon who is a sentient, intelligent being ok to kill but not a human? Is this a fair line to draw? Did they just not think about it and decide to have the rules fit whatever story they wanted to right?
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:19 PM   #317
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LOL. I didn't hate Season 6 when it first aired, but I didn't love it either, and I think I'm in the same boat as I was then. I understand what they are doing - that doesn't mean I have to think it is fun to watch or that I think it was a good direction for the show.

It will be interesting to see if I soften to season 7 any, as I really hated most of it during the original airing and haven't watched any of it since.

On season 5, I agree with MrDazzo that it was the most serial of all the seasons, but it was just too dark for me in a show that I liked because of the wit and fun.
I'll be interested to read your grades of Season 7. I have pretty similar feelings as yours, and have never ventured back that way since they aired.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:45 PM   #318
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S06E13 Dead Things - C
S06E14 Older and Far Away - B
S06E15 As You Were - C
S06E16 Hell's Bells - F
S06E17 Normal Again - A
S06E18 Entropy - B

Dead Things was average, but key to moving along the Trio development. Older and Far Away I had enough that I liked to bump up to a B. I'm a big Riley fan, so I liked him coming back, but it wasn't a strong episode.

The next, well, it's my only F (so far) and that's a totally emotional grade. It was actually a pretty good episode up until the very end and Xander's final decision. It could have been salvaged as a happy episode, but they had to go for the kill instead.

Normal Again I love. I love the mess with reality. Strong performances and a great twist on the whole series. Entropy was a good fallout from the wedding episode.

I'll probably finish the season tonight.
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Old 03-03-2013, 12:17 PM   #319
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Since I have a bit of an audience, anyone want to chat about the inconsistencies in moral rules of the Buffyverse?
I never liked the stated rules of killing demon = okay, killing human = wrong. Far too simplistic. Why not judge beings based on their actions (and perhaps somewhat on their intentions, if they can be determined reliably), as most people in real life do?
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:29 PM   #320
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I never liked the stated rules of killing demon = okay, killing human = wrong. Far too simplistic. Why not judge beings based on their actions (and perhaps somewhat on their intentions, if they can be determined reliably), as most people in real life do?
They ended up addressing this in both Buffy and Angel around the time I was complaining about it. In Buffy it was in the context of Willow killing Warren and Dawn basically saying who cares he deserved it and they kill bad guys all the time. Buffy's argument was that we have rules and law to take care of that for humans. But I'd argue that any human using magic or superpowers is not going to be able to be handled by the police - Faith, Warren, Willow, etc. Same for the lawyers at Wolfram & Hart - it's not like you can go to the police with "they hired a psychic to torture my friend through her visions." I think it would be fair to take care of them yourself.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #321
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S06E19 Seeing Red - B
S06E20 Villains - C
S06E21 Two to Go - C
S06E22 Grave - C

I just don't love how this season ended. I'm probably being too hard on it, but I just didn't like Dark Willow as an antagonist. I didn't think she was all that interesting, which is odd, since Vampire Willow was so much fun. But Dark Willow wasn't fun. It was just depressing. There were some moments I liked - Giles showing up, Xander at the end, Dawn showing she's got moves, but it was just a bit flat for me. It was another season finale of Buffy running around not knowing what to do and being completely ineffective against her foe. Not fun. (And we just get more of this next season...)

After finishing Buffy season 6 I went back and blew through Angel season 3. I won't say that in totality Angel is a better show, but as Buffy was faltering in its final seasons, Angel was finally picking up steam. Side-by-side, Angel season 3 was definitely better than Buffy season 6. But even still, the emotional highs and lows never get to me in Angel, like they do in Buffy. Even knowing what happens in Buffy, I sobbed through several episodes. Angel's never even gotten a watery eye out of me.

I also apparently watched more of Angel than I thought, as I remembered many of the episodes as I watched them. But there were also big things I didn't remember at all - like Justine. I think I liked season 3 better than season 2 - I didn't care for the dark Angel and too much Darla in season 2. I loved Groo coming back, hated that he left. Feel really sad for Wesley. I'd asked earlier about if Angel and Cordy ever got together and they got close here - were on their way to tell each other "I love you" when Angel was sunk to the bottom of the ocean and Cordy ascended. Glad we dodged that bullet.

I'll be switching back to Buffy and watching season 7 (gulp) next.

For those who've watched all of Angel, how would you rank the seasons? I still have never been able to watch all of season 1, the show got so much better in season 2 and in season 3 with the full crew (Lorne, Fred, Gunn).
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:47 PM   #322
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Oh, and I definitely don't think Spike went to the cave looking for he soul. Or if he did, they did a terrible job with that. I know they wanted us to think he went there to get his chip removed, and that makes the most sense. He said about a dozen times "make me what I was" and there is zero way that can be interpreted to mean "give me a soul and make me a vampire with a soul which is something I've never been before ever."
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:50 PM   #323
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Oh, and I definitely don't think Spike went to the cave looking for he soul. Or if he did, they did a terrible job with that. I know they wanted us to think he went there to get his chip removed, and that makes the most sense. He said about a dozen times "make me what I was" and there is zero way that can be interpreted to mean "give me a soul and make me a vampire with a soul which is something I've never been before ever."
... unless you interpret it "Make me what I was [before I became a vampire]" in which case restoring his soul makes sense.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:33 PM   #324
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... unless you interpret it "Make me what I was [before I became a vampire]" in which case restoring his soul makes sense.
No, then making him a human would have made sense.

Also, it was dumb because you'd think something that important he'd be pretty explicit. The writers phrased it that way so it would surprise the viewers, but it was a fail all around IMO.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:00 PM   #325
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S07E01 Lessons - B

This season is off to a great start. No mopey, bitchy, whiny, "I died" or "I killed my boyfriend" or "I'm lonely" or "I died again" Buffy. We get a nice mystery at the beginning - who was that girl and why did they kill her? We get Sunnydale High back! Dawn gets her own set of Scoobies. Buffy gets a job at the school. Spike is crazy. All in all, it set things up really well.


...
...




.......


(Man, wtf happened. This season had so much potential. Pun not intended. )
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:14 AM   #326
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S07E01 Lessons - B

This season is off to a great start. No mopey, bitchy, whiny, "I died" or "I killed my boyfriend" or "I'm lonely" or "I died again" Buffy. We get a nice mystery at the beginning - who was that girl and why did they kill her? We get Sunnydale High back! Dawn gets her own set of Scoobies. Buffy gets a job at the school. Spike is crazy. All in all, it set things up really well.


...
...




.......


(Man, wtf happened. This season had so much potential. Pun not intended. )
I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'

But my dislike of the whole season may be clouding my judgement.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:03 AM   #327
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I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'

But my dislike of the whole season may be clouding my judgement.
LOL. I think that's a fair assessment. Recalling what is coming, it feels like they decided to radically change direction at some point. Either they did a bad job setting it up, or they did change direction. The season actually starts out pretty well.

S07E02 Beneath You - C
S07E03 Same Time, Same Place - B

Beneath You made me struggle with the same morality issues that bothered me in later seasons. Anya is a demon. She is causing harm to people. But Buffy doesn't try to kill her. Why? Because they know her? They know she'll cause harm again. If she's a demon, doesn't that mean it's ok to take her out. Anyway, this episode started out as a nice mystery of the week, but flattened out when we realized it was Anya, so not a mystery or baddie to fight.

Same Time, Same Place is a very good episode, almost A worthy. If I was grading on a curve for this season, it would definitely be an A. There's humor, a great, creepy villain, and some emotional punch.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:22 AM   #328
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I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'
Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #329
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Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.
Considering those 'friends' of Dawn's don't appear again, did it really take until episode 7 or 8? Or am I misremembering?

I recall a good episode around maybe 6, right before it went all downhill.
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:22 PM   #330
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Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.
The did go back to the beginning, they just went too far. The First Evil and all. (right?)

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Considering those 'friends' of Dawn's don't appear again, did it really take until episode 7 or 8? Or am I misremembering?

I recall a good episode around maybe 6, right before it went all downhill.
Conversations with Dead People is episode 7 I think and that I recall as being one that is highly regarded. The next episode is when the potential slayer concept is introduced and that's when it all goes to pot.
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