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Old 03-13-2013, 01:41 PM   #61
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I didn't bother with Xbox Live and it still worked ok. In fact I set up my Xbox up to reboot direct to Windows Media Center. I think the Xbox was actually less than $200 and might have been $170 (it was one of the ones without a hard drive).
You mentioned the Xbox could do other things like Netflix which requires Xbox Live. Even though you pay Netflix Xbox charges you a subscription free to access content you can watch for free on other devices. Media Center is the only thing that doesn't require Xbox Live Gold, but it does require Silver because a banned Xbox won't work as a Media Center extender.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:48 PM   #62
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I'm not aware of any other network streaming device than a TiVo Mini that relies on a service fee to move my own data across my own home network and yet there are plenty of streaming devices about that cost less than $250. Much less than $250 let's face it.
There are really only two retail devices in existence that compete directly with the Mini in that they can stream encrypted content from a host DVR to another TV in the house. The Ceton Echo and the XBox 360. The Ceton Echo is $180 and the lowest tier XBox is $200. So TiVo's price of $250 isn't really that far out of the ball park. And the fact that they offer a $100 + $6/mo option creates a lower cost entry point for new customers then the other two options.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want the price to be lower, but it's not as outlandish as people are making it out to be.

Edit: And as for the Stream... I think the only reason they didn't charge a service fee for it is because they have plans to build that functionality into the next generation TiVos and they didn't want to have a discrepancy in how the two devices were handled.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:47 PM   #63
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There are really only two retail devices in existence that compete directly with the Mini in that they can stream encrypted content from a host DVR to another TV in the house. The Ceton Echo and the XBox 360. The Ceton Echo is $180 and the lowest tier XBox is $200. So TiVo's price of $250 isn't really that far out of the ball park. And the fact that they offer a $100 + $6/mo option creates a lower cost entry point for new customers then the other two options.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want the price to be lower, but it's not as outlandish as people are making it out to be.

Edit: And as for the Stream... I think the only reason they didn't charge a service fee for it is because they have plans to build that functionality into the next generation TiVos and they didn't want to have a discrepancy in how the two devices were handled.
The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.

Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.

Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #64
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The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.

Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.

Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?
i think the pricing is dead on
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:49 PM   #65
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You mentioned the Xbox could do other things like Netflix which requires Xbox Live. Even though you pay Netflix Xbox charges you a subscription free to access content you can watch for free on other devices. Media Center is the only thing that doesn't require Xbox Live Gold, but it does require Silver because a banned Xbox won't work as a Media Center extender.
That's true. No free lunches. The Xbox does play more advanced games than skulls and bones or whatever it is called though.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:51 PM   #66
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i think the pricing is dead on
I think all remains to be seen.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:52 PM   #67
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i think the pricing is dead on
Why, because TiVo is a high end product and needs high end prices to keep the riff raff out?

Serious question...

(I bet you things change with either the pricing or functionality in the coming months).
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:58 PM   #68
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The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.

Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.

Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?
The Echo is all about driving Ceton's tuners and at one point the Ceton Q. Listen to this weeks Engadget HD podcast. Ben who is a Media Center user discusses the price difference. Take the Ceton Echo add a functional remote, $30, and add MoCa, $50, and you have the Mini at $250.

As people have also said first this was developed for the cable companies originally. Second some of us believe this is in anticipation for the new TiVo units due at the end of the year which we are guessing will come with a minimal of 4 tuners allowing the Mini to work with all their new boxes. This means in less than a year potentially the Mini will work with every new TiVo sold. With the current Premiere platform going on 3 years I would say a good portion are ready to upgrade.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:14 PM   #69
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The Echo is all about driving Ceton's tuners and at one point the Ceton Q. Listen to this weeks Engadget HD podcast. Ben who is a Media Center user discusses the price difference. Take the Ceton Echo add a functional remote, $30, and add MoCa, $50, and you have the Mini at $250.

As people have also said first this was developed for the cable companies originally. Second some of us believe this is in anticipation for the new TiVo units due at the end of the year which we are guessing will come with a minimal of 4 tuners allowing the Mini to work with all their new boxes. This means in less than a year potentially the Mini will work with every new TiVo sold. With the current Premiere platform going on 3 years I would say a good portion are ready to upgrade.
This has made things a lot clearer. I didn't even realize Ceton sold tuners by the way (I'd never heard of them).

I'm starting to get how things fit together. I have premieres that are only a little over a year old so definitely won't be upgrading but it looks like the future of TiVo is starting to take shape.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:31 PM   #70
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This has made things a lot clearer. I didn't even realize Ceton sold tuners by the way (I'd never heard of them).

I'm starting to get how things fit together. I have premieres that are only a little over a year old so definitely won't be upgrading but it looks like the future of TiVo is starting to take shape.
Yeah Ceton was one of the first companies to come out with multi-CableCARD tuners for Media Center. Originally ATI only made a signal tuner. Ceton's first card was the InfiniTV4, a 4 tuner PCI card for Windows 7. They developed the Mini because the 360 is the only extender still made. The previous extenders were $200-$300 and discontinued before multicard tuners were available. Of course when the Echo came out a lot of Media Center people complained it should be $99.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:33 PM   #71
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The Mini is almost 40% more expensive than the Ceton Echo and it's not like the Ceton Echo is driving sales of other 'flagship' products for them. If anything this just shows how 'out there' Tivo is with the Mini.

Another thread on here was saying that there is an estimate of only 50,000 four tuner Tivos and I'm not even sure if that is total sold or total in operation. They've cut the potential market for the Mini to the bone and then priced it with a "let's see what sticks to the wall" approach.

Are Tivo playing an early April fool's joke on us?
The Kindle Fire HD is only $200 yet an iPad mini is $320. They're essentially the same device so why is the iPad more? Because it's a premium brand people are willing to pay more for.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:35 PM   #72
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Or go with HD Home Run/Home Run Primes, and use something like MythTV and/or XBMC.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:37 PM   #73
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The Kindle Fire HD is only $200 yet an iPad mini is $320. They're essentially the same device so why is the iPad more? Because it's a premium brand people are willing to pay more for.
I'd get a Nexus 7 instead. Not real impressed with the Fire and the iPad mini is overpriced. For the same money, you get a Android that will get regular updates and works well with the play store.

However, in my opinion, the iPad has a better OS and a better store. But the price difference compels you to look at the other options.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:41 PM   #74
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My point was that it's not that unusual for two devices with the same basic functionality to have vastly different prices.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:44 PM   #75
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My point was that it's not that unusual for two devices with the same basic functionality to have vastly different prices.
Yep and if Tivo had competition in the OTA space then they might not dismiss it so easily.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:50 PM   #76
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That's part of the reason they can get away with this pricing. They have very little competition. The HTPC/Ceton combo is alright, but too much of a hassle to setup and maintain for the average Joe. Their only real competition is from the MSOs themselves and they only rent equipment, for relatively high fees, with no option to buy or pay for "lifetime" service up front. When compared to their actual competition the pricing isn't that far out of line.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:54 PM   #77
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That's part of the reason they can get away with this pricing. They have very little competition. The HTPC/Ceton combo is alright, but too much of a hassle to setup and maintain for the average Joe. Their only real competition is from the MSOs themselves and they only rent equipment, for relatively high fees, with no option to buy or pay for "lifetime" service up front. When compared to their actual competition the pricing isn't that far out of line.
Yup. After having had MCE for a while, I have realized that it is for enthusiasts only. Even as a computer enthusiast, I just want something that works for my TV. The Mini is fundamentally a sub-$100 box, but given the market, TiVo is able to charge a huge premium for it, and part of that is their software. Part of it also may also be to protect the MSOs' ability to charge $10/mo for it.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:54 PM   #78
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Yup. After having had MCE for a while, I have realized that it is for enthusiasts only. Even as a computer enthusiast, I just want something that works for my TV. The Mini is fundamentally a sub-$100 box, but given the market, TiVo is able to charge a huge premium for it, and part of that is their software. Part of it also may also be to protect the MSOs' ability to charge $10/mo for it.
The one MSO deploying the Mini (Suddenlink) is charging $6 to $7 for it depending on package.

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:27 AM   #79
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Can you use a retail Mini with a suddenlink Premiere Q DVR?
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:08 AM   #80
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Can you use a retail Mini with a suddenlink Premiere Q DVR?
It appears that way from some info on the TiVo web site. Sorry do not have time to find the links again.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:54 AM   #81
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Can you use a retail Mini with a suddenlink Premiere Q DVR?
Good question. I haven't seen Suddenlink answer that question. The only data point I have for this use-case is RCN. They support retail Streams for Premiere-Q customers only. I expect Suddenlink will support as well. It saves them CPE and CapEx with very little support if the customers home already has MoCA.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:26 AM   #82
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While I always wanted mini with a 2-tuner, I can understand why they don't want to support it.

With a 2 tuner I find that live TV often interrupts recording because there are already 2 things being recorded and I have to choose which to kill to watch something live. People have grown accustomed to having 2 tuners and a mini would potentially interrupt that. And if you have a mini running but it can't get a live signal because the other 2 tuners are in use, you end up with the opinion that "this things sucks, I can never do what I want to".

They are already on the hook for higher pricing, no android support, needing 2 different devices for tablet and tv use and a bunch of other things. If I was running their product management I would think that it is easier to say "no 2 tuner support" than take the wrath of angry customers and bad reviews. They probably see the 4 tuner growth going up heavily and the 2 tuner growth dropping, so the demand signal probably says that supporting 4 tuner is going to make it easier.

Ultimately it comes down to pissing off the 2 tuner people one way or another. You either offer support and get all of the complaints and bad reviews or you don't offer and you get some blowback from people who wanted the device. Obviously, if this is the case they probably look at a.) the install base/growth of 2 tuner vs. 4 tuner and b.) the propensity to want to buy the mini (2 tuner vs. 4 tuner).

Obviously the bulk of the "2 tuner and want mini" people are going to be in this forum. So while it may seem like a huge issue, in reality, relative to their total market opportunity, this could be a much smaller number that just gets magnified here.

As a marketing person, I know these decisions and tradeoffs happen all the times. It always comes down to:

1. What is technically possible?
2. What has the least number of technical/support issues?
3. Where can I maximize revenue?

You look at 1 first because if it isn't possible the discussion is done. 2 is second because support is a cost with no (real) benefit. So anything that pushes support costs up introduces uncertainty and risk, that is bad. Finally you look at the revenue input.

Tivo has lots of data available and makes the decision that works best for their business. That may not be the decision that the users want (I have a 2 tuner premiere and would love a mini). This is just like the "no andriod on stream" thread. Tivo is ovbiously looking at the market and doing what works best based on the circumstances, they aren't idiots, they just have access to a lot more information than we do about the real opportunity. When people say they are making a big mistake, they are saying that without all of the information.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:09 AM   #83
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Assumption that it is not a technical limitation.

How about an option to call into TiVo support, pass a technical IQ test and then they allow you to add a Mini to an account with only regular 2-Tuner Premieres.

You fail the IQ test, no you cannot add the Mini.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:16 AM   #84
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Tivo has lots of data available and makes the decision that works best for their business. ... they aren't idiots.
I agreed with your post up until the last paragraph. I have seen no evidence that Tivo makes particularly wise business decisions. In fact, they have been on the precipice of collapse for a decade as a result of their previous business decisions.

Successful ligitagion outcomes are currently keeping them afloat.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:18 AM   #85
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Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.
So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.

$250 (P4)
$400 (Lifetime w/MSD)
$99 (Mini)
$150 (Mini Lifetime)
_____
$900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:39 AM   #86
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Assumption that it is not a technical limitation.

How about an option to call into TiVo support, pass a technical IQ test and then they allow you to add a Mini to an account with only regular 2-Tuner Premieres.

You fail the IQ test, no you cannot add the Mini.
But would TiVo support people even pass that test? No doubt that some would not based on some of my past experience.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #87
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So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.

$250 (P4)
$400 (Lifetime w/MSD)
$99 (Mini)
$150 (Mini Lifetime)
_____
$900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)
Yep, pretty much what a 3-tuner Moxi + Mate bundle cost before discontinued I think, or was it $799?
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:24 AM   #88
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So, a TiVo Mini can be used to recive OTA streaming from a TiVo Premiere already on the account, but in order to do so the account holder would have to spend a minimum of $900, or $349 upfront plus $21 monthly.

$250 (P4)
$400 (Lifetime w/MSD)
$99 (Mini)
$150 (Mini Lifetime)
_____
$900 (total; or $349 upfront + $21 monthly w/1yr. commitment)
A P4 can't be used for OTA though. So, it wouldn't make sense to buy one, if you're looking for OTA support.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:56 AM   #89
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A P4 can't be used for OTA though. So, it wouldn't make sense to buy one, if you're looking for OTA support.
But the P4 is needed to support a Mini infrastructure. To stream OTA material to a Mini, you'll need both an OTA-capable DVR (two-tuner Premiere), and a host DVR to enable functionality of the Mini (four-tuner Premiere).
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:25 PM   #90
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But the P4 is needed to support a Mini infrastructure. To stream OTA material to a Mini, you'll need both an OTA-capable DVR (two-tuner Premiere), and a host DVR to enable functionality of the Mini (four-tuner Premiere).
Sorry but that is just asinine.
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