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Old 03-13-2013, 08:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by magnus View Post
Just because you have a 4 tuner Premiere does not mean that you would not try to use a Wifi adapter though.

Why don't they just create a software update that disables the ability to use Wifi then?
You can use WiFi without having a WiFi adapter on the TiVo. There are lots of people using WiFi bridges where as far as the TiVo is concerned it has no idea there is any WiFi in the picture, so "disabling WiFi" is not possible regardless of the type of TiVo unit.
So I don't think the use of WiFi is driving the decision not to support 2 tuner hosts. Looks to me like TiVo has decided that live TV capability is an essential part of the Mini and only hosts capable of giving up at least 1 tuner will qualify. I don't agree with that decision, especially since you can assign 0 tuners to the Mini anyway.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:35 AM   #32
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller View Post
Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.
This is a game changer! I now have the incentive to upgrade either my HD or HDXL!
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:38 AM   #33
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First I will say I would have liked the Mini to have support the dual tuner Premieres.

That said I will restate what I have said before, I do not believe TiVo is interested in Mini sales per say. My belief is the Mini's primary function (from TiVo's point of view) is to:
  1. Provide TiVo's cable company partners with what they want.
  2. Provide a competitive whole home DVR system
  3. Support the sale of 4 (or more) tuner TiVo DVRs
The bottom line is dealing with supporting dual tuner Premieres (not to mention Series 3 units) is not in TiVo's best interests pretty much any way you look at it once you get over the idea that TiVo's goal is to sell Minis - it is not, their goal is to sell NEW whole home systems and 4+ tuner DVRs.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:43 AM   #34
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There's a solution to the dubious lack of 2-tuner support - buy a Premiere 4 and a Mini, activate both, then return the 4 and get a refund on service but keep the Mini. Voila, you now have MRS and the 'hit record to stream live TV' workaround on the Mini from your 2-tuner boxes.

Yes, it's stupid Tivo - people will do this to get a Mini working because you won't support 2-tuners without live TV. And you'll have needless returns/refurbs on 4-tuner boxes because of it. The only question is whether the Mini will work at all if it can't find a 4-tuner box on the network.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:46 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
There's a solution to the dubious lack of 2-tuner support - buy a Premiere 4 and a Mini, activate both, then return the 4 and get a refund on service but keep the Mini. Voila, you now have MRS and the 'hit record to stream live TV' workaround on the Mini from your 2-tuner boxes. The only question is whether the Mini will work at all if it can't find a 4-tuner box on the network.

Yes, it's stupid Tivo - people will do this to get a Mini working because you won't support 2-tuners without live TV. And you'll have needless returns/refurbs on 4-tuner boxes because of it.
I can understand why they don't market it as "streaming pre-recorded content only for 2-tuner users" because I can only imagine the phone calls to support this would result in.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:47 AM   #36
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I thought I read that the Mini needs to be tied to a 4 tuner Premiere. I though that if it was removed that it would no longer work properly. I'm sure someone will try soon. If my Mini shows up Friday I can try this weekend and see what happens.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:48 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
There's a solution to the dubious lack of 2-tuner support - buy a Premiere 4 and a Mini, activate both, then return the 4 and get a refund on service but keep the Mini. Voila, you now have MRS and the 'hit record to stream live TV' workaround on the Mini from your 2-tuner boxes.

Yes, it's stupid Tivo - people will do this to get a Mini working because you won't support 2-tuners without live TV. And you'll have needless returns/refurbs on 4-tuner boxes because of it. The only question is whether the Mini will work at all if it can't find a 4-tuner box on the network.


I'm pretty sure this won't work. I believe the Mini leverages the Host DVR for a lot more than you think. Once the 4-tuner is removed from the network, I think your functionality would be severely limited. Look at the truth table on the Mini support page.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:53 AM   #38
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When you have a company making decisions like this for a large part of their installed base, don't be surprised if they try to workaround the problem.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:59 AM   #39
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Yes. Streaming (MRS) from 2-tuners is supported. The 2-tuner base Premiere can't be a Mini Host DVR.
Nothing here, I responded to wrong post.

Last edited by magnus : 03-13-2013 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:03 AM   #40
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How would they know? There wireless N device is a bridge so all the Tivo see's is a ethernet connection
Yep, that was exactly the point. It's stupid for Tivo to not be allowing for 2 tuner models when 4 tuner models have the exact same potential for being used with wifi.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #41
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TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.

First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.

There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.

Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.

IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by timon0x31 View Post
TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.

First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.

There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.

Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.

IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.
I agree 100%. I used to really love Tivo and was probably considered a fanboy on here but they are saying and doing things that just don't make sense. I hope these features will be coming to the Mini but I'm skipping this product unless they do.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by timon0x31 View Post
TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.

First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.

There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.

Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.

IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.
My own opinion is that certain minimum typing and spelling skills should be required for posting on forums.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:49 AM   #44
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My own opinion is that certain minimum typing and spelling skills should be required for posting on forums.
Seriously?! You can't just comment on the content? Instead you feel the need to put the person down. Wow.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:52 AM   #45
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Please, anybody but Apple. I don't care if it's the Keebler elves, just not Apple. I would rather eat a bowl of rusty screws drenched in battery acid than put my hands on one of those cult iCrap devices.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:53 AM   #46
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I agree 100%. I used to really love Tivo and was probably considered a fanboy on here but they are saying and doing things that just don't make sense. I hope these features will be coming to the Mini but I'm skipping this product unless they do.
It may not make sense to you because you want something TiVo is currently unwilling to give you. But I am guessing it makes perfect sense to TiVo and without knowing all the technical issues or what their marketing data has shown them we have no way of knowing how reasonable or unreasonable the decision was.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:14 AM   #47
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My own opinion is that certain minimum typing and spelling skills should be required for posting on forums.
Your statement was not really necessary but comon when someone has nothing to say but still wants to comment. Try being more civil.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:17 AM   #48
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Sometimes I wish that Apple would buy TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.
There was a rumor about Apple buying TiVo a few years ago. IMO, that would have been a win-win situation. It would have given TiVo a great direction, and Apple could have integrated TiVo in their Apple TV box and in the upcoming Apple Television.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:27 AM   #49
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Seriously?! You can't just comment on the content? Instead you feel the need to put the person down. Wow.
I'd be more inclined to comment on the content if the writer had made an effort to compose a post that didn't make my eyes bleed.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:52 AM   #50
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TiVo is really ticking me, and I'm sure many others, with these constant marketing screw ups.

First they come of with the Premere 4 that won't work over the air. They tell you it's because there is no tuner that will support more than two over the air streams. That's one big fat lie TiVo and they know it. Getting 4 atsc/qam tuners runner is not a problem. TiVo is just bowing to the cable companies to screw the Free TV folks.

There is no reason that TiVo could not have released the Mini to work as a streaming only device with a two channel Premere. Either Marketing is forcing Engineering to not release it just to sell more 4 tuner cable versions or TiVo's Engineers are some of the dumbest around. Again I'm betting it's totally a Markettng decision and I hope that they get totally screwed because of it.

Sometimes I wish that Apply would by TiVo, with some of their 137 billion, for the patents and fire all of the execs and release a good system.

IMHO, if you don't agree that fine. Flames not needed just state your own opinion.
OK, my opinion is you don't appear to know jack about technical issues and even less about how capitalism works.

First I know of no 4 tuner OTA devices so what TiVo would have or will have to do to develop one is unknown. What is certain is it would have added to the cost of the 4 tuner Premieres and likely delayed their release.

Second you (or I) have no idea what technical issues there maybe to have a Mini use a dual tuner Premiere as the host DVR.

Third any company that wants to stay in business had better use marketing data to target what products will be profitable to develop. Not doing so assures they will be bankrupt and out of business.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:59 AM   #51
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I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have never provided technical support for any computer-based product or consumer electronics device.

It would not likely be a (large) support issue for most that visit TCF, but for the target market for a base Premiere, it would be a nightmare.

Why doesn't it work with my wireless? How do I do this MoCA thing? Why aren't most of my programs recording? How do I tell when the Mini is full? Why does my TiVo only record one thing at a time now?

It's FAR easier from a support standpoint to just say "minimum of 4 tuners" and minimize the complaints of users who can't/don't understand the concept of an assigned tuner than to provide the function to a group of users that will most likely be first in line to purchase the upgraded DVR as soon as it's available.
I feel like Tivo has a list of items that is making their ecosystem confusing and very un-Tivo like. The 2-tuner limit for the Mini is one. The wifi works in certain circumstances (for guide data and MRV) but not in other is another. The moca (new to many people) option. The ethernet option. The Stream to only Apple products is another. The crappy implementation of the Stream is another. The lack of Netflix on the Mini is another. The legacy MRV feature. The difference between Streaming from Netflix, streaming from the other Tivo in the other room, streaming from a Mini, and streaming from the Stream to Apple products.

I'm hopeful this fall will resolve most of the limitations and begin to simplify Tivo again. TV shouldn't be this hard or confusing. That is what Tivo has always been about, yet here we are.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:01 PM   #52
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OK, my opinion is you don't appear to know jack about technical issues and even less about how capitalism works.

First I know of no 4 tuner OTA devices so what TiVo would have or will have to do to develop one is unknown. What is certain is it would have added to the cost of the 4 tuner Premieres and likely delayed their release.

Second you (or I) have no idea what technical issues there maybe to have a Mini use a dual tuner Premiere as the host DVR.

Third any company that wants to stay in business had better use marketing data to target what products will be profitable to develop. Not doing so assures they will be bankrupt and out of business.
I think Tivo should comment on those technical issues that prevent a 2 tuner Premiere from being a host DVR for the Mini. I've asked Margaret several times but no answer yet. If there were a real technical reason why it wouldn't work then let's have it already. Otherwise, we're just being fanboys and stating that Tivo had their reasons.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #53
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The bottom line is dealing with supporting dual tuner Premieres (not to mention Series 3 units) is not in TiVo's best interests pretty much any way you look at it once you get over the idea that TiVo's goal is to sell Minis - it is not, their goal is to sell NEW whole home systems and 4+ tuner DVRs.
I tend to think the next generation of TiVo's will not be less than 4 tuners anyways. So, at that point the Mini will support any TiVo currently being sold.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:06 PM   #54
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I feel like Tivo has a list of items that is making their ecosystem confusing and very un-Tivo like. The 2-tuner limit for the Mini is one. The wifi works in certain circumstances (for guide data and MRV) but not in other is another. The moca (new to many people) option. The ethernet option. The Stream to only Apple products is another. The crappy implementation of the Stream is another. The lack of Netflix on the Mini is another. The legacy MRV feature. The difference between Streaming from Netflix, streaming from the other Tivo in the other room, streaming from a Mini, and streaming from the Stream to Apple products.

I'm hopeful this fall will resolve most of the limitations and begin to simplify Tivo again. TV shouldn't be this hard or confusing. That is what Tivo has always been about, yet here we are.
I agree it certainly feels like we are in a transition phase. I wonder if the current Premieres aren't actually legacy equipment already. TiVo has made a clear break from Series 1, 2, & 3 equipment but I don't really think we will have made the full transition until the next round of DVRs are released.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:14 PM   #55
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I think Tivo should comment on those technical issues that prevent a 2 tuner Premiere from being a host DVR for the Mini. I've asked Margaret several times but no answer yet. If there were a real technical reason why it wouldn't work then let's have it already. Otherwise, we're just being fanboys and stating that Tivo had their reasons.
Given that I am OTA only, have an Android tablet, have 2 Series 3 TiVos along with a Premiere it would be a stretch to be a fanboy of TiVos whole home DVR system as I can not use any of it (Premiere 4, Stream, or Mini).

I agree it would be nice to know more even if they sent it through back channels to the mods here. But the reality is regardless if it is technical or based on marketing data really does not matter.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:40 PM   #56
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I think Tivo should comment on those technical issues that prevent a 2 tuner Premiere from being a host DVR for the Mini. I've asked Margaret several times but no answer yet. If there were a real technical reason why it wouldn't work then let's have it already. Otherwise, we're just being fanboys and stating that Tivo had their reasons.
I used to use an Xbox 360 to extend TV from a Windows Media Center PC. It worked fine with 2 OTA tuners. The Xbox also only cost $200 and could play games, access Netflix and all kinds of other things. $250 for the TiVo Mini seems laughable in comparison.

So laughable in fact that I don't doubt there will plenty of returned Minis on sale on tivo.com in a couple of month's time. Maybe someone will find a way to hack them and make them more usable.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:06 PM   #57
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I tend to think the next generation of TiVo's will not be less than 4 tuners anyways. So, at that point the Mini will support any TiVo currently being sold.
I have said it multiple times, but this is my belief also.

I think TiVo has begun to fully embrace the whole home experience especially as all the MSOs move to that. The only reason I can see TiVo not doing it is because they were unable to find a cheap way to integrate 4 OTA tuners.

I think we will only see 4 and 6 tuners in the next models which I would guess by Christmas. We still haven't seen any movement on the FCC waiver request to drop analog which at minimum would push them to the summer.

While I could see room for a cheap 2 tuner model, it would probably depend on what the cable partners are asking for. If none of them want 2 tuner models, they could probably bring their cost down low enough that even the 4 tuner is a cheap entry point.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:07 PM   #58
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I used to use an Xbox 360 to extend TV from a Windows Media Center PC. It worked fine with 2 OTA tuners. The Xbox also only cost $200 and could play games, access Netflix and all kinds of other things. $250 for the TiVo Mini seems laughable in comparison.

So laughable in fact that I don't doubt there will plenty of returned Minis on sale on tivo.com in a couple of month's time. Maybe someone will find a way to hack them and make them more usable.
Don't forget the yearly Xbox live sub for $39.99 on sale which puts you at $270 by the second year. They also sell them for a loss and recoup on their licensing cost which is something TiVo can't do.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:25 PM   #59
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Yep, that was exactly the point. It's stupid for Tivo to not be allowing for 2 tuner models when 4 tuner models have the exact same potential for being used with wifi.
The incentive to use Wifi is less for the 4 tuner units because they have built in MoCa. TiVo has even priced the MoCa bridge lower ($50) then their wireless N adapter ($90) creating more incentive to use MoCa over Wifi.

I really think TiVo is attempting to phase out Wifi in favor of MoCa. There may actually come a day when they decide that Wifi is no longer a supported configuation. Of course people cand still use bridges, but if it doesn't work TiVo can just say "sorry, wifi is not supported".

Honestly I think the Mini is targeted more towards the next generation TiVo then the current ones. I'm betting the next gen TiVos have a minimum of 3 tuners, built in MoCa and will all support the Mini.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:32 PM   #60
button1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
Don't forget the yearly Xbox live sub for $39.99 on sale which puts you at $270 by the second year. They also sell them for a loss and recoup on their licensing cost which is something TiVo can't do.
I didn't bother with Xbox Live and it still worked ok. In fact I set up my Xbox up to reboot direct to Windows Media Center. I think the Xbox was actually less than $200 and might have been $170 (it was one of the ones without a hard drive).

I'm not aware of any other network streaming device than a TiVo Mini that relies on a service fee to move my own data across my own home network and yet there are plenty of streaming devices about that cost less than $250. Much less than $250 let's face it. Even the Stream costs half of what a Mini costs and yet has more functionality! And it works with two tuner Premieres - maybe it has advanced technology that couldn't be incorporated into the Mini.

As much as I like my Premiere's I just can't get into the Mini. It's borderline bizarre how TiVo are trying to market it. Hopefully the idea is a plan B type relaunch in the future.

Last edited by button1066 : 03-13-2013 at 02:37 PM. Reason: And the Stream also works with two tuner Premieres funnily enough
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