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Old 12-18-2012, 06:10 PM   #61
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It's "Dar Adal" according to Showtime's twitter feed (and other sources).
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:24 PM   #62
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Also, does the CIA even have jurisdiction to do that in the US?
Ganza has admitted that the CIA operating within the US is a major fiction. Not only can they not assassinate people (anywhere - in theory) They can't even do intelligence gathering inside the US.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:33 PM   #63
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Those are only plot holes if you're bound and determined to find them.

1) Quinn didn't "fall in love" with Carrie and Brody. He just realized there was no reason to kill them. (Of course, as it turns out, he was wrong). He's allowed to have his own moral code, especially when the entire op was off the books and Estes has no control over him. (See below.)

2) Estes is a suit - and a former analyst. Quinn is a wet ops killer. He knows that Quinn could kill him without batting an eye and no one would ever know, and he also knows that he has no direct control over him (the CIA has two separate branches: Intelligence and Ops, and Estes is Deputy Director on the Intelligence side, but has no direct control over the Ops side. Quinn reports to Dar Adal, not Estes).
...
Estes could have put Quinn on the team without putting him in charge of the team. If his role was to deal with Bordy at the nd, he didn't need to run the op to do that.

He knew Quinn even had the skills in surveillance and tactics?
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:22 PM   #64
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Estes could have put Quinn on the team without putting him in charge of the team. If his role was to deal with Bordy at the nd, he didn't need to run the op to do that.

He knew Quinn even had the skills in surveillance and tactics?
You misunderstand me. My point was that:

1) Estes is the one that wanted Brody dead, partly because Brody knew about his involvement with the drone strike.

2) Estes put Quinn on Saul's team per some agreement with Dar Adal, presumably with the understanding that Quinn would kill Brody once it was over.

3) Despite Estes putting Quinn on the team, Estes had no real control over Quinn - Quinn was and is Dar Adal's man, and Quinn/Dar Adal and Estes are under different chains of command within the CIA (Intel versus Ops) - so despite Estes' wishes that Quinn take out Brody, he could not order or otherwise force him to do so if Quinn opted not to (unless, of course, Dar Adal told Quinn to go forward with it - we don't know at this point whether that happened).

4) In any event, Estes' hit on Brody was undoubtedly an illegal order, so Quinn would be free to disregard if he had the backbone to stand up to Estes. The CIA does not engage in hits on foreign leaders, much less sitting US Congressmen.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:22 PM   #65
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Finally got a chance to watch... I agree with a lot of others, it was a bit of a mess. For starters, the first 40 minutes was the most uneventful/un-thrilling period of time in the two seasons of the show.

Carrie and Brody: The entire Carrie/Brody "we'll throw away our lives and give up everything we love to be together" angle is a major miscalculation in my opinion. It's so absurd and far-fetched that it takes me out of the show (since caring for the two leads is an integral part of investment in a story)... Like someone else said, I could by some kind of misguided, temporary sexual tension and maybe some action, but the way they're forcing this as some kind of "romeo and juliet"/doomed lovers thing isn't flying with me. Especially her giving up the CIA for someone she knows plotted a major terrorist attack, and who killed the vice president (under duress or not). And someone who she previously hated and wanted to bring down in a way she'd never felt before.

The Bomb: My first thoughts on the car bomb were that the writers started digging in their "24" playbook because nothing about it made any sense... I'm assuming there is security cameras that show Brody parking the car, and then eventually someone else loading it with enough explosives to do what it did, and moving it behind a big ass window that over 200 people were facing. Granted we don't know the details yet so if it turns out that a CIA mole disabled somehow disabled the cameras then loaded and moved the car with absolutely no detection, then that would be SOMEWHAT believable (believable within the scope of this show, not any reality).

I also have to see how they proceed with Carrie next season - there is no way she just pops back up and isn't under immediate suspicion. They know she was in the room. They know she wasn't in the blast and subsequently wasn't anywhere to be found for another 24 hours (or more). What is her explanation?

I was surprised to see the tape get released, that I didn't see coming. I though the acting in that scene was excellent. They were all completely stunned. I was also laughing at Brody getting and roaming around with a fake ID as if that would do *anything* at this point. He's officially responsible for the worst domestic attack since 9/11. If he's not dead or captured in the season premiere, I might be done.

I did like the twist that he tried to commit an attack but couldn't go through with it, then got caught and helped catch Nazir, then had a clean slate, but then got framed for an actual successful attack that he actually didn't commit.

I'm also not clear on how Nazir planned this out. I'm guessing this was his revised plan after Brody foiled the military homecoming plot, but I just don't get how he could have lined everything up. He's able to kidnap Carrie through sheer coincidence, then convince Brody to kill Walden (magically with no inquiry whatsoever), then know the CIA would have a memorial, then know Brody would go to it... I can't get over this part though, even though it doesn't really add up.

Quinn and Estes: I was fine with Quinn not going through the with shot--I thought it was the first reasonable thing anyone's done on this show in a long time, lol. I get the idea that he's basically a merc and those guys follow orders, but I don't think that was it with him. He's still an agent and he has a convenience, and he knew killing Brody was just Estes covering his ass, not to protect national security. Estes was a dirt bag.


I'll have to see where all this stuff lands next year. I was kind of over the show going into this season but they turned it around when Saul found that memory card so early in the season, and everything that followed. I wasn't expecting that and it got me excited for the show again. But the whole Carrie/Brody thing is almost too much to look past, as well as the way the finale unfolded (again, depending on where they go with it).

We shall see...
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:57 PM   #66
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I loved Saul's line to Carrie: "You're the smartest and the dumbest f-ing person I've ever known." Those were his last words to her before the explosion where he thought she had died.

And I loved that last scene with Saul saying the prayer amongst the impromptu morgue as Carrie's voice calls to him faintly as a ghost as he continues his prayer, then louder until he turns to see her, alive. Patinkin's acting in that final scene was amazing. He said so much with just his look of tortured relief.

I can't wait for next season. And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.


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BUT its still orders of magnitude better than most of the other shows out there and I DO look forward to the next season!!

Gerry


I really love this show--even the Carrie and Brody parts. I was amazed at the hate here since I thought the hour just flew by. What other show has even 1 actor as good as Saul, Carrie, or Brody?
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:59 AM   #67
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Or "Beat my suspension of disbelief into unconsciousness and lock it in the cellar."

I'm not even sure it's a good show any more. I think it's a bad show with sensational acting. Can you imagine what this season would have been like with ordinary actors? At least I have almost a year to decide if that acting makes it worth watching.
Rob, you score a bullseye every time you have something to say about the more recent sad state of affairs concerning this show.

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I really love this show--even the Carrie and Brody parts. I was amazed at the hate here since I thought the hour just flew by. What other show has even 1 actor as good as Saul, Carrie, or Brody?
Fringe, to name not only 1 but an equal 3...(plus Astrid makes it 4)
While we're at it Boss too..
Hell, let's make it a trifecta, Game of Thrones...

Please, let's not so quickly forget Andy Whitfield as well. (Spartacus: Blood and Sand)
(Can't mention that show now, without also naming Batiatus/John Hannah too.)

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Old 12-19-2012, 11:01 AM   #68
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No one bothers to check cars for bombs when they enter CIA headquarters? That's standard procedure at every sensitive building in DC. (The guy with the mirror on a pole that he sticks under the car)
To be fair that only helps if you stick a car-bomb under the car. If you take the time to break in and pack under the rear seat with explosives, or swap out the spare tire for a bomb a quick mirror check isn't going to do any good.

I tend to doubt the explosives got planted after Brody entered the compound because: first - you'd have to sneak them in in some other vehicle, and second - moving packages from one car to another in the CIA parking lot is more likely to attract more attention than simply planting the explosives outside of security. What's the major downside from the terrorists perspective in the unlikely event Brody gets cause trying to smuggle explosives in; they can release the tape anyway. (And depending on how they're triggered possibly take out Brody and the guard gate anyway)

But yeah, overall this episode bothered me; from the burial at sea in the museum battleship, to simply driving away from the explosion, to teleporting to the Canadian border and back; I'm far less interested in this show than I was at the end of season 1.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:27 AM   #69
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to teleporting to the Canadian border and back; I'm far less interested in this show than I was at the end of season 1.
It's not 24, events aren't happening in real time...

Earlier in the episode, someone told Saul it would take a few days to get the bodies out of the building. Since in the final scene, Saul was in a makeshift morgue with the bodies, it was pretty obvious a few days had passed when Carrie showed up.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:09 PM   #70
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It's not 24, events aren't happening in real time...

Earlier in the episode, someone told Saul it would take a few days to get the bodies out of the building. Since in the final scene, Saul was in a makeshift morgue with the bodies, it was pretty obvious a few days had passed when Carrie showed up.
Maybe it was the fact that the makeshift morge looked like they'd borrowed the next door gym that made it seem so soon. I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that that was very temporary body staging are before transporting to a proper (cooled) storage. And that with that many bodies still unmoved that it must be pretty early in the search; which means that days couldn't have passed.

Now possibly that's not what they wanted to convey, but several posters here seem to have gotten that same impression of minimal elapsed time between the explosion and Carrie's return. (Could be it's just poorly conveyed rather than an actual plot hole; but it came off as problematic for whatever reason)
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:41 PM   #71
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It's entirely feasible that since they drove to the border that night (10 hours), Carrie could have driven back the following day in time to get to the morgue during daylight hours (the following day). Also add in the time to make the fake ids (an hour or two), she still could have made it back the following day to see Saul in the gym.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:24 PM   #72
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An interview with the Homeland showrunner, defending the show: http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollyw...nds-to-critics
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:02 PM   #73
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Alan Sepinwall's take on the same interview...

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wat...-from-season-2



One excerpt, addressing the "keep the stars around" controversy...
Quote:
But Gordon also acknowledged that any motivation they would have for keeping Lewis in the fold wouldn't come from the fact that he's the reigning Emmy winner for lead actor in a drama series.

"Obviously, you can't let the tail wag the dog," he said. "All the awards in the world won't give rise to a character or a story that's either run its course or had whatever shelf life it has. As Alex has said, we love this relationship, it's become one of the defining pillars of the show... Whenever the relationship is no longer the center of the show. I think as tempting as it is, and as afraid as we are, you can't let all the awards and acclaim — and Damian's brilliance — dictate the story in terms of where it needs to go."
That quote makes it clear that the showrunners are too involved in the story to see how it's actually been presented to the viewing audience. By letting Brody live past this episode, they've already let the tail wag the dog, since the story of Brody has definitely run its course. The relationship between Brody and Carrie isn't a defining pillar of the show - it's an embarassment.
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You misunderstand me. My point was that:

1) Estes is the one that wanted Brody dead, partly because Brody knew about his involvement with the drone strike.

2) Estes put Quinn on Saul's team per some agreement with Dar Adal, presumably with the understanding that Quinn would kill Brody once it was over.

3) Despite Estes putting Quinn on the team, Estes had no real control over Quinn - Quinn was and is Dar Adal's man, and Quinn/Dar Adal and Estes are under different chains of command within the CIA (Intel versus Ops) - so despite Estes' wishes that Quinn take out Brody, he could not order or otherwise force him to do so if Quinn opted not to (unless, of course, Dar Adal told Quinn to go forward with it - we don't know at this point whether that happened).

4) In any event, Estes' hit on Brody was undoubtedly an illegal order, so Quinn would be free to disregard if he had the backbone to stand up to Estes. The CIA does not engage in hits on foreign leaders, much less sitting US Congressmen.
I got the sense that Dar Adal was formerly on the Ops side of the CIA, but that now he was no longer officially affiliated with the CIA at all and that his team, including Quinn, was a black ops team completely off the books.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:06 PM   #74
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For some reason I keep going back to an episode early in the season where Brody is transporting the tailor and he gets the flat tire, and discovers that the jack was missing. Why did that go out of their way to show that? And all of the sudden in this season he was driving that Suburban, where did it come from? My theory is that the explosives were in vehicle for a long time (from the vest?) and perhaps the jack was to show that someone had messed with the vehicle?

As to who moved the vehicle. What about that agent they at first suspected of moving Nazzir out of his hiding place?
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:24 PM   #75
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Listened to a podcast interview with showrunners Alex Gansa (Hollywood Prospectus available at Grantland.com). Couple thoughts:

1. He said that a properly-medicated Carrie as we saw this year probably lost some of the instincts that made her such a good analyst in the past.

2. He didn't specifically say how the bomb got in the car, but he did mention that Brody's car sat on the side of the road for many hours when Brody was taken away in the helicopter.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:48 AM   #76
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Now we can have Dana's angst as she thinks her father killed her boyfriend. She still could break down with what she knows, maybe attempt suicide.
Fingers crossed!
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:01 AM   #77
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Sure. Carrie will prove to Saul that Brody didn't have anything to do with the car bomb, ....ummm becuase she was with him looking to get some nookie in Saul's office so they can clear his name...except for that A MEMBER OF CONGRESS attempted a plot to blow up the Vice-President of the United States and SecDef with a suicide vest - complete with video confession, murdered Tom Walker on Nazir's order, caused the death of the tailor bomb maker while attempting to save him, and paid a key role in the murder of the Vice-President, Brody is CLEAN!
Doesn't he have an immunity agreement covering all those acts?

The only thing he can still be held responsible for is the CIA bombing (and the VP assassination of course, but no one suspects him of that).
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:42 PM   #78
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Doesn't he have an immunity agreement covering all those acts?

The only thing he can still be held responsible for is the CIA bombing (and the VP assassination of course, but no one suspects him of that).
Yeah, sure. You think the POTUS is going to hold a press conference saying, "A deal is a deal?" All bets are off. Congress and the public are going to demand blood.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:40 PM   #79
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I'm not even sure it's a good show any more. I think it's a bad show with sensational acting. Can you imagine what this season would have been like with ordinary actors?
24?
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:51 PM   #80
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I'm a bit annoyed that the entire hit and run thing with the VP's kid turned out to be a total waste of time. It went nowhere other than being some sort of worthless preaching against how the rich and powerful inhabit the world differently than the rest of us. The kid and his family are dead and the person he hit is dead.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:22 PM   #81
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I'm a bit annoyed that the entire hit and run thing with the VP's kid turned out to be a total waste of time. It went nowhere other than being some sort of worthless preaching against how the rich and powerful inhabit the world differently than the rest of us. The kid and his family are dead and the person he hit is dead.
You are forgetting the many ways the hit and run moved the plot along. For one thing, it led Brody to his melt down and to him telling the reporter he was done with Nazir and everything spiraling from there. It led to Dana seeing him with Carrie and subsequently telling Jessica that they were together. The payoff gave Brody even more desire to kill the VP. Etc.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:58 AM   #82
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I have just now finished watching Homeland, start to finish over the course of about a month. Overall, I found it very entertaining and I'm still on board for next season. Some thoughts:

It bothered me throughout that whenever Jessica spoke to Brody, she called him "Brody." Who calls their spouse by their last name? I've never met anyone that does that.

Regarding Saul as the mole; I just don't see it, based on the way his character has been portrayed and based upon the things he has done. It would take some very fine writing to convince me otherwise. There have, though, been moments when I have had some suspicions - like his seemingly intentional failing of the first lie detector test, in season one. And while his saying the mourner's kaddish for the dead victims of the Langley blast at the end of this season seemed entirely in character, it struck an odd note when he said the mourner's kaddish the first time, for the dead terrorist (the one Brody ostensibly slipped a razor blade to, last season). Also, did anyone else catch that in the first season episode where Saul was on the road trip with Eileen (terrorist lady), and they pitstopped at his old schul, there was a brief shot of them standing around and you could see Saul twiddling his fingers, hand at his side, very much the same way that Brody had in the first episodes when they were trying to figure out what that might mean? It was not the focus of the shot the way it was composed, and nothing was ever made of it so I went on to assume it was just a red herring. Finally, it seems there's a relatively short list of people who both had possession of the Brody confession video and who survived the blast. Saul is one of those people. In my opinion, none of that adds up in a way that tips the scale in favor of him being a mole. But it's all interesting to note.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:11 AM   #83
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It bothered me throughout that whenever Jessica spoke to Brody, she called him "Brody." Who calls their spouse by their last name? I've never met anyone that does that.
In previous threads, it's been noted that this is not unheard of in the military.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:23 AM   #84
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I have just now finished watching Homeland, start to finish over the course of about a month.
I did too. Just finished it a couple days ago. Great so far, but I agree that the second season wasn't as good as the first. The Carrie Brody thing is too much.

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Regarding Saul as the mole; I just don't see it, based on the way his character has been portrayed and based upon the things he has done. It would take some very fine writing to convince me otherwise. There have, though, been moments when I have had some suspicions - like his seemingly intentional failing of the first lie detector test, in season one.
I was about to post the very same thing. I would not at all be surprised if Saul was the mole, but the sticking point for me is his relationship with Carrie. They would have to write it in that he was the mole for anything that wouldn't affect Carrie. He liked her more than the terrorists and would do anything except what might hurt Carrie. IDK...I guess the writers could take it either way. Still, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence suggesting that he is the mole, or at least, not perfectly clean.

Something that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned in this thread is how the most recent meeting between Nazir and Brody factors in. We saw from the CIA debriefing that Brody wasn't being completely honest about it. That was consistent with everything Brody has done.... He has told the CIA most of the plan, but always held something back. Second, he nodded to Carrie during the ceremony as if to say "we need to leave now". I thought that was suspicious BEFORE the whole bomb thing. Once the bomb went off, it suddenly became clear why he wanted to leave the ceremony then. Whether the writers for season 3 come back and say he knew about the bombing beforehand or not, I don't really know, but I also took the whole "looking out the window and being surprised that his SUV was moved" as being conveniently forced... Almost like he said that only for Carrie so he would have a way to explain away any suspicion on him. In other words, he was playing on her emotions to get himself out of trouble.

I'm eager for season 3, but I do hope they put the Carrie/Brody relationship behind them. I like it better when Carrie knows he's bad, but just can't prove it yet.
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