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Old 02-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by SullyND View Post
@davezatz on twitter:
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At least one retailer will receive TiVo Mini training next week and we're pretty sure the monthly fee will be $6. No word on hardware cost.
Sounds good then. I will be getting at least one Mini with the monthly service.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:11 PM   #1052
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How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.

That idea is dead on arrival.
They could call it a service fee.

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Old 02-24-2013, 03:33 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by spotterman26 View Post
5.9 watching live tv and recorded shows, and 4.4 when in standby.

EDIT - 5.2 in screensaver.
Cool, what did you ultimately use to measure it? I assume live TV, recorded TV, and screen saver would be the common modes. Doubt standby will see much use.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:36 PM   #1054
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Similar situation

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Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
You are one lucky user. At some point, my guess is that they will find this and restructure your pricing. Hopefully for you, that is no time soon.
I recently downgraded my Cox Cable Sub, from an $80 a month plan, to the $35 Economy plan. That includes channels 2-99, thirty-two, four-digit, HD channels and Music channels.

They were charging me $2 for cable cards x 3, plus the Digital Gateway fee or Advanced Tv fee, one at $5, the other two at $4. That comes to $19 a month, just for the fees.

When I called up to switch plans, the csr said the the $35 INCLUDED all the Card fees.
Anyway, I got my bill yesterday, for the month. It was $27, for the Economy plan and $6 for the cable cards. No Advanced tv fees! That was it! Now I did lose some channels, as I explained earlier in this thread, but this has me rethinking the Mini.

I still would like to have a couple, but like most everyone else, I will wait and see what the pricing will be.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:21 PM   #1055
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I currently have a TiVo Elite with lifetime and a TiVo HD that I pay tivo $6.95 a month. So I have 6 tuners and I can watch stuff from either TiVo on the other one (except for premium programs.) So why would I get a mini for $6 a month and cut my total number of tuners to 3?
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:08 PM   #1056
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I currently have a TiVo Elite with lifetime and a TiVo HD that I pay tivo $6.95 a month. So I have 6 tuners and I can watch stuff from either TiVo on the other one (except for premium programs.) So why would I get a mini for $6 a month and cut my total number of tuners to 3?
Unless you are just dying to remove a single cable card fee I would see no reason at all.

And that is the point, I do not believe TiVo will be trying to sell Minis for the sake of selling Minis. I also believe TiVo has no desire to have users replace existing TiVo DVRs with Minis either.

Again in my opinion the purpose of the Mini is 2 fold:
  1. To provide TiVo's cable company partners with a competitive whole home system to lease to their customers.
  2. To help sell new 4 (6?) tuner stand alone TiVo DVRs most likely by providing package deals.
But until we see how the Mini is actually priced and marketed everything is just speculation.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:42 PM   #1057
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Or people like me who are newer and would rather pay 6 bucks for a kids TV ALA mini, then 14 bucks a month for a full fledged premiere
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:10 PM   #1058
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Or people like me who are newer and would rather pay 6 bucks for a kids TV ALA mini, then 14 bucks a month for a full fledged premiere
The situations like HazelW's where people might consider replacing an existing TiVo DVR on subscription with a Mini, yours where people would not buy another TiVo DVR anyways, or the worst one where someone would have bought another Premiere but instead buy's a Mini are exactly why I think the Mini will be priced fairly high.

In all of those cases TiVo gains nothing unless they make it on the Mini's sale and subscription and in two of them actually lose money on other transactions that has to be made from the Mini's sale.

The only situation where the Mini can be sold with little or no profit is when it causes the sale of a new DVRs that wouldn't have happened without the Mini being available.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:18 PM   #1059
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In my case the Mini will result in an upgrade. My mom has my two old TiVo HDs so she will get my Elite and a mini. I will end up buying whatever replaces the XL4 which from what we know is usually less of a subsidized model.

Until the Mini though she is content with the TiVo HDs, and I will upgrade when we have a XL4 replacement.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:58 PM   #1060
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The only situation where the Mini can be sold with little or no profit is when it causes the sale of a new DVRs that wouldn't have happened without the Mini being available.
That's sort of the situation I'm in. I've just recently dipped my toe in the Tivo waters with my purchase of a Premiere 4. But my ideal whole-home solution is probably to add a 2nd Premiere and 1 or 2 Minis. I'm hoping to see some decent bundle deals.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:05 PM   #1061
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Until the Mini though she is content with the TiVo HDs, and I will upgrade when we have a XL4 replacement.
My TiVoHD been very very good to me. Why upgrade?

HDUI? meh.
More Efficient? Meh.
MRS? (To another TiVo) Meh.
More tuners? Maybe.
TiVo Stream? Maybe.

Mini (At a decent price, including lifetime) Yep!

On it's own the Mini doesn't push it over, but cumulatively with the benefits above could finally push me to upgrade.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:06 PM   #1062
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I'm with you, Sully. I have a TivoHD and have no compelling reason to upgrade at this point. I'm happy with on two-tuner DVR in my family room. But if there were an affordable way for me to put an extender in my basement, master bedroom, and guest room? I'd upgrade to a premier and buy three minis.

Though I'm not sure that I'd be willing to pay monthly subs for the privilege. I don't have lifetime on my TivoHD now but have been thinking about giving TiVo up bc the value really isn't there fore anymore.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:22 PM   #1063
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TiVo has disclosed that the churn (cancellation) rate on TiVo HD is much higher than the TiVo Premiere so I think you'll are the exception. TiVo Premiere, even with its sluggish UI & mediocre OTT apps, has higher customer satisfaction metrics and lower churn than the TiVo HD. I firmly believe that the Mini coupled with the Stream make an upgrade from a series 3 platform even more compelling for the vast majority of consumers. The bottom-line that's been also communicated from TiVo is that the Stream and Mini drive subscription fees buy attracting new customers and lowering churn of existing customers.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:06 PM   #1064
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If the Mini comes out only workable with the TPXL4 or TP4 than the market at this point will not be that big unless TiVo puts together a package of the TP4+mini+Moca,+ a single service fee or package Lifetime. I am assuming the Mini has a built in Moca. Spending time speculation on the price is a waste of time IMHO.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:17 PM   #1065
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If the Mini comes out only workable with the TPXL4 or TP4 than the market at this point will not be that big unless TiVo puts together a package of the TP4+mini+Moca,+ a single service fee or package Lifetime. I am assuming the Mini has a built in Moca. Spending time speculation on the price is a waste of time IMHO.
Correct. Mini has built-in MoCA.

TiVo sold 30,000 Premiere boxes at retail last quarter (10/31/2012). I can easily see TiVo sell 10,000 Retail Mini's per quarter after launch. I expect there will be an initial bump in Mini sales to fulfill demand associated with existing Premiere 4/XL4 owners. This also doesn't account for a possible increase in retail demand now that a viable whole home solution is available.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:02 PM   #1066
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My TiVoHD been very very good to me. Why upgrade?

HDUI? meh.
More Efficient? Meh.
MRS? (To another TiVo) Meh.
More tuners? Maybe.
TiVo Stream? Maybe.

Mini (At a decent price, including lifetime) Yep!

On it's own the Mini doesn't push it over, but cumulatively with the benefits above could finally push me to upgrade.
Remote management options and faster transferring is enough for me.

For my mom 4 tuners in one box and streaming will be enough. She doesn't want to manage two TiVos and she doesn't like transferring shows since it takes forever.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:01 AM   #1067
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I currently have a TiVo Elite with lifetime and a TiVo HD that I pay tivo $6.95 a month. So I have 6 tuners and I can watch stuff from either TiVo on the other one (except for premium programs.) So why would I get a mini for $6 a month and cut my total number of tuners to 3?
I don't think TiVo is out for people like you who have been with the service forever. If I was only paying $6.95 for TiVo I would buy 2 or 3 boxes and call it a day.

For me as a new member it's $15 a month for TiVo and $3.50 for a cable card. To add even a 2 tuner TiVo it would cost me another $16.50 a month (3.50 for cable card and 12.95 for another TiVo service). This would bring my receiver bill to $35 a month.

For me $6 a month to extend my recordings and occasionally live TV service is a bargain if it's really only going to be $99 and $6 a month.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:51 AM   #1068
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TiVo sold 30,000 Premiere boxes at retail last quarter (10/31/2012). I can easily see TiVo sell 10,000 Retail Mini's per quarter after launch. I expect there will be an initial bump in Mini sales to fulfill demand associated with existing Premiere 4/XL4 owners. This also doesn't account for a possible increase in retail demand now that a viable whole home solution is available.
How easily can you see it? 10K Minis per quarter might be on the aggressive side after the initial surge since the potential market really is kind of limited for now ("tens of thousands" of 4/XL4's sold according to the new waiver). A 33% upsell rate of all sales also sounds aggressive but once/if it's opened up to the other boxes, then maybe it's potentially possible. That service/lifetime fee is a real stinker in the deal, but a bundle discount of some kind could be attractive to some degree.

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:21 AM   #1069
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TiVo has disclosed that the churn (cancellation) rate on TiVo HD is much higher than the TiVo Premiere so I think you'll are the exception. TiVo Premiere, even with its sluggish UI & mediocre OTT apps, has higher customer satisfaction metrics and lower churn than the TiVo HD. I firmly believe that the Mini coupled with the Stream make an upgrade from a series 3 platform even more compelling for the vast majority of consumers. The bottom-line that's been also communicated from TiVo is that the Stream and Mini drive subscription fees buy attracting new customers and lowering churn of existing customers.
I am sure that the reason TiVo developed both the Stream and Mini is because they thought they would cause greater new DVR sales either by attracting new customers or by retaining existing ones through upgrades. However I do not believe the Mini is going to lower the cancellation rate of any TiVo DVR any time soon.

First it requires a 4 tuner TiVo DVR and it is only going to work with Premiere DVRs. So there is no reason it should have any positive (it may have a negative) effect on the cancellation rate of Series 1, 2 or 3 TiVos. Second I don't really believe many (any?) people who have bought a 4 tuner TiVo DVR are going to be canceling it with or without the availability of a Mini any time soon. So that leaves the 2 tuner Premieres, which I am guessing it will have little net effect on.

I do believe that down the road it will help make it harder for people to leave TiVo - once someone has purchased a 4 (6?) tuner DVR and several Minis I do think they will be less likely to leave than someone who just purchases a low cost dual tuner one.

To me the Mini is somewhat of a game changer for retaining customers because it does not have a hard drive should have a very low failure rate and not need to be replaced for years and several DVR upgrades. People who are buying 4 tuner DVRs with Minis now will only need to replace the DVR when TiVo refreshes their DVR line up to have the latest greatest whole home system.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:23 AM   #1070
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How easily can you see it? 10K Minis per quarter might be on the aggressive side after the initial surge since the potential market really is kind of limited for now ("tens of thousands" of 4/XL4's sold according to the new waiver). A 33% upsell rate of all sales also sounds aggressive but once/if it's opened up to the other boxes, then maybe it's potentially possible. That service/lifetime fee is a real stinker in the deal, but a bundle discount of some kind could be attractive to some degree.
Thanks for pointing back to the "tens of thousands" comment from the recent waiver request. Since the Elite launched in January, 2012, TiVo has added approximately 120k gross adds (Premieres). I'm guessing that a 3rd of those are 4-tuner boxes so we have a base of only 40k boxes. I suspect 15 percent of those users would buy one Mini (6,000) and another 5 percent would by 2 Minis (4,000). So 10,000 Minis sold to existing users. For new TiVo purchasers, I suspect at least 50 percent will opt for a 4-tuner box (~15,000/qtr - 60,000/yr) and 30 percent (on average) would buy a Mini (4,500/qtr - 18,000/yr).

Bottom-line is a I agree that my 10k per quarter is aggressive and would require a significant uptick in retail sales volume.

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Old 02-25-2013, 08:40 AM   #1071
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Thanks for pointing back to the "tens of thousands" comment from the recent waiver request. Since the Elite launched in January, 2012, TiVo has added approximately 120k gross adds (Premieres). I'm guessing that a 3rd of those are 4-tuner boxes so we have a base of only 40k boxes. I suspect 15 percent of those users would buy one Mini (6,000) and another 5 percent would by 2 Minis (4,000). So 10,000 Minis sold to existing users. For new TiVo purchasers, I suspect at least 50 percent will opt for a 4-tuner box (~15,000/qtr - 60,000/yr) and 30 percent (on average) would buy a Mini (4,500/qtr - 18,000/yr).

Bottom-line is a I agree that my 10k per quarter is aggressive and would require a significant uptick in retail sales volume.
The Elite launched in October 2011. I got my first Elite on October 9th, 2011.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:45 AM   #1072
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The Elite launched in October 2011. I got my first Elite on October 9th, 2011.
Thanks for that clarification. I bought my Elite around that time as well. How quickly I forget!
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:56 AM   #1073
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5.9 watching live tv and recorded shows, and 4.4 when in standby.

EDIT - 5.2 in screensaver.
Thanks for providing these numbers.

For comparison, I pulled together these numbers on other Tivo Products. Feel free to add or correct where needed. I couldn't find all the ranges. For energy use, I used 10 cents per kw hr, 24 hrs daily, using highest watt usage if there is a range for that device:


Tivo Mini: 4.4-5.9 watts; cost per month: 0.40; per year 5.15
Tivo Stream: 7-9 watts; cost per month: 0.60; per year 7.86
Tivo Premiere Elite: 20-22 watts; cost per month: 1.48; per year 19.22
Tivo Premiere: 23-26 watts; cost per month 1.75; per year 22.71
Tivo HD: 35-38 watts; cost per month: 2.55; per year 33.20
Tivo Series 3: 41 watts; cost per month: 2.76; per yera 35.82
Tivo Series 2: 40 watts; cost per month: 2.69; per year 34.94
Tivo Series 1: 40-45 watts; cost per month: 3.02; per year 39.31

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Old 02-25-2013, 11:30 AM   #1074
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The Premiere Elite draws around 22 watts. 20 to 22 if I remember correctly.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:33 AM   #1075
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For comparison, I pulled together these numbers on other Tivo Products.

Tivo HD: 35-38 watts; cost per month: 2.55; per year 33.20
Tivo Series 3: 41 watts; cost per month
I measured my S3 at 42 and THD at 38 for whatever it's worth. I'm sure it varies by type of usage and such.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:41 AM   #1076
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The Premiere Elite draws around 22 watts. 20 to 22 if I remember correctly.
Added that info to the list. Interesting that Elite uses less than the regular Premiere.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:06 PM   #1077
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Added that info to the list. Interesting that Elite uses less than the regular Premiere.
I think the elite has a slightly newer chipset version, which would explain it.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:10 PM   #1078
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I think the elite has a slightly newer chipset version, which would explain it.
Newer Power supply.. Same chipset
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:13 PM   #1079
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I don't think that is it surprising that the Elite uses less than the regular Premiere. While it does have twice the number of tuners the digital ones are using the same number of chips, and they are dropping the analog and OTA chips. Add in newer and more efficient versions of other chips, I'm taking a guess here, but for example the number of RAM chips needed could easily have been reduced with minimal hardware re-design, and zero software design. Enough little things like that will add up to 3 or 4 watts.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:47 PM   #1080
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Newer Power supply.. Same chipset
I think he meant the tuner chips. The Elite has four tuners, but they're newer and they lack circuitry for handling OTA (although that probably doesn't save much).

Oops. P42 beat me to it.
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