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Old 02-23-2013, 02:06 PM   #1021
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I thought the difference was that those devices aren't connected directly to the Tv to use? The Mini is designed to be directly connected to a TV. And that could be the difference and why they would be charged a fee.
What exactly is a "TV"? The Mini can be connected to a computer monitor, or to a thin, battery operated LCD. When I watch Netflix or Crackle on my Android tablet, is it a "TV?". If I stream the output of my TiVo to a phone, is that a "TV?" If I watch broadcast programs on my Lenovo Laptop running Linux through an HDTV tuner dongle, is that a "TV"?

The whole concept of what is or is not a "TV" is already blurred and will just get blurrier all the time.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #1022
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Spotterman26, when you went through the guided setup for your minis, did you see the "downloading guide data for 24 hours), or any messages like that?
Negative.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:06 PM   #1023
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Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.
5.9 watching live tv and recorded shows, and 4.4 when in standby.

EDIT - 5.2 in screensaver.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #1024
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What exactly is a "TV"? The Mini can be connected to a computer monitor, or to a thin, battery operated LCD. When I watch Netflix or Crackle on my Android tablet, is it a "TV?". If I stream the output of my TiVo to a phone, is that a "TV?" If I watch broadcast programs on my Lenovo Laptop running Linux through an HDTV tuner dongle, is that a "TV"?

The whole concept of what is or is not a "TV" is already blurred and will just get blurrier all the time.
The key is your ability to watch a program, the word TV means nothing by itself, it is your ability to watch on any display device will makes you a consumer of that program. The cost is for content not display size you may watch it on. A typical cable co may give you 500+ channels of programing to watch, if it is delivered to your home the cable co pays, nobody cares (except you) if you watch it on a 3 inch or 110 inch display.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:22 PM   #1025
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Originally Posted by crxssi View Post
What exactly is a "TV"? The Mini can be connected to a computer monitor, or to a thin, battery operated LCD. When I watch Netflix or Crackle on my Android tablet, is it a "TV?". If I stream the output of my TiVo to a phone, is that a "TV?" If I watch broadcast programs on my Lenovo Laptop running Linux through an HDTV tuner dongle, is that a "TV"?

The whole concept of what is or is not a "TV" is already blurred and will just get blurrier all the time.
Actually in the US what a TV is, is legally defined. In the US for something to be legally be called a TV it has to have tuners built into it that can receive television broadcasts, so no your computer monitor is not a TV and neither is your tablet. That is why when some manufactures left tuners out of their early HD devices they couldn't call them a TV but had to refer to them has monitors.

However your point is well taken that in the context of a mini it can transmit a signal to any displace device with the correct input and it is really irrelevant if the device is a TV or not.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:59 AM   #1026
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If that's true, it would indicate that the Tribune Media Services lawyers have made fools of the TiVo lawyers. There shouldn't be a fee just for remote viewing. As others have mentioned, the iPhone, iPad, etc, require no fees. I don't pay a fee when I use Zap2it.
+1000. Kevin hit the nail on the head - if Tivo charges a sub fee for the Mini it's because they can for business reasons, not because it is justified by any ongoing costs. Give it up, Sam.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:06 AM   #1027
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At least one retailer will receive TiVo Mini training next week and we're pretty sure the monthly fee will be $6. No word on hardware cost.

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:29 AM   #1028
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The fact of the matter remains that TiVo does have to pay some recurring monthly costs associated with supporting a Mini.
What recurring monthly costs do they incur on a sold Mini?
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:54 AM   #1029
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What recurring monthly costs do they incur on a sold Mini?
It take some extrapolation from TiVo's Service Revenue and Cost of Service Revenue numbers to conclude that the cost per box is less than $2/mo... probably closer to $1.5/mo.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:03 AM   #1030
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What recurring monthly costs do they incur on a sold Mini?
same could be said for Monthly Set top fees from every cable/SAT company..

Why does Direct TV need to charge 10 bucks for an advanced box or 7 bucks for a HD fee or 7 bucks for a DVR service fee.

The 6 bucks is to make them money
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:29 AM   #1031
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same could be said for Monthly Set top fees from every cable/SAT company..

Why does Direct TV need to charge 10 bucks for an advanced box or 7 bucks for a HD fee or 7 bucks for a DVR service fee.

The 6 bucks is to make them money
And more to the point, the recurring revenue stream is to get wall street excited. Too bad they won't sell many.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:38 AM   #1032
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same could be said for Monthly Set top fees from every cable/SAT company..

Why does Direct TV need to charge 10 bucks for an advanced box or 7 bucks for a HD fee or 7 bucks for a DVR service fee.

The 6 bucks is to make them money
At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:53 AM   #1033
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At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.
And over three years the "TCO" of that box is $320... which, for a box that is nothing but a parasite seems very high to this particular TiVo owner.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:03 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

And over three years the "TCO" of that box is $320... which, for a box that is nothing but a parasite seems very high to this particular TiVo owner.
At that rate it would likely put the lifetime service price at $200 which would give a purchase price of $299. That seems on par with what TiVo charges for other products, which is about 50% more than what people would expect the cost to be.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:09 PM   #1035
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At that rate it would likely put the lifetime service price at $200 which would give a purchase price of $299. That seems on par with what TiVo charges for other products, which is about 50% more than what people would expect the cost to be.
If the lifetime cost is $200 then I will consider it..... when they are trying to get rid of refurb Minis for $25.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:10 PM   #1036
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At $6/mo, the Mini will save me significant money over a Verizon FiOS extender which is $11/mo or a TiVo Premiere box which is $12.99(box)+$3.95(CableCARD). Of course, the Mini will have an upfront cost that will need to be amortized over the life of the box.

I think it will be a competitive offering at a $5.95/mo level.

TiVo will likely amortize the $199 product lifetime cost over 66 months making their ARPU $3/mo for a lifetime subscriber.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:13 PM   #1037
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If the lifetime cost is $200 then I will consider it..... when they are trying to get rid of refurb Minis for $25.
Keep dreaming. I would be very surprised to see a $25/mini for a very long time. Refurbs will like be $69 to $79 if the regular box is $99.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:15 PM   #1038
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At $6/mo, the Mini will save me significant money over a Verizon FiOS extender which is $11/mo or a TiVo Premiere box which is $12.99(box)+$3.95(CableCARD). Of course, the Mini will have an upfront cost that will need to be amortized over the life of the box.

I think it will be a competitive offering at a $5.95/mo level.

TiVo will likely amortize the $199 product lifetime cost over 66 months making their ARPU $3/mo for a lifetime subscriber.
I think the problem is that people (like yourself) are trying to justify a monthly sub cost on the TiVo because they can argue that it;

1. Uses less power than a full TiVo.
2. Doesn't require a cablecard rental like a full TiVo.
3. Doesn't have other associated outlet fees or monthly costs like other TiVos.

While all of these arguments are "true"... the reality is that the majority of TiVo owners only have one TiVo. They would not be "replacing" another TiVo with the Mini in order to realize perceived lower costs. They would be adding the Mini to extend their TiVo out to other rooms in the house that might be served by "free" cable boxes or basic cable, etc.

For those users, a $299 TiVo Mini with lifetime service might be a hard pill to swallow.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:15 PM   #1039
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At $6/mo TiVo could easily sell this box at $99 (subsidized) and have a reasonable ROIC.
I'd be amazed if the box comes in at $100. Keep in mind the 802.11n wireless adapters retails for $80 and the Stream runs $130. I'd say that $130 price point is the lowest we'd probably see it (subsidy or no).
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:18 PM   #1040
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I think the problem is that people (like yourself) are trying to justify a monthly sub cost on the TiVo because they can argue that it;

1. Uses less power than a full TiVo.
2. Doesn't require a cablecard rental like a full TiVo.
3. Doesn't have other associated outlet fees or monthly costs like other TiVos.

While all of these arguments are "true"... the reality is that the majority of TiVo owners only have one TiVo. They would not be "replacing" another TiVo with the Mini in order to realize perceived lower costs. They would be adding the Mini to extend their TiVo out to other rooms in the house that might be served by "free" cable boxes or basic cable, etc.

For those users, a $299 TiVo Mini with lifetime service might be a hard pill to swallow.
#3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.

Keep in mind that the average home in the US has 2.5 set top boxes. My speculation is that the average TiVo home has 1 TiVo box and 1.5 cable operator supplied boxes.

Is there such a thing as a "free" cable box any more? FiOS charges $6.99 for a DTA...
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:20 PM   #1041
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I'd be amazed if the box comes in at $100. Keep in mind the 802.11n wireless adapters retails for $80 and the Stream runs $130. I'd say that $130 price point is the lowest we'd probably see it (subsidy or no).
I agree. In fact I'd say $149 is more likely, with a lifetime cost of $200-$250 putting the total cost of the box at $400 or so.

The frustrating thing for me is that, while I have no problem affording this box financially, I have a problem rewarding what I see as bad/moronic behavior on TiVos part.

I think my Slingbox and Slingcatcher are going to get use for quite a while longer. Amazingly my Slingcatcher does not have a monthly or lifetime service fee and lets me do almost everything the TiVo Mini does.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:20 PM   #1042
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I'd be amazed if the box comes in at $100. Keep in mind the 802.11n wireless adapters retails for $80 and the Stream runs $130. I'd say that $130 price point is the lowest we'd probably see it (subsidy or no).
Excellent point and you're probably right but the Stream doesn't have a subscription fee associated with it. Perhaps will see them drop the price of the Stream to $99 upon launch of the Mini.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:25 PM   #1043
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I think the problem is that people (like yourself) are trying to justify a monthly sub cost on the TiVo because they can argue that it;

1. Uses less power than a full TiVo.
2. Doesn't require a cablecard rental like a full TiVo.
3. Doesn't have other associated outlet fees or monthly costs like other TiVos.

While all of these arguments are "true"... the reality is that the majority of TiVo owners only have one TiVo. They would not be "replacing" another TiVo with the Mini in order to realize perceived lower costs. .
Yep, I have said that several different ways in the thread already. Some people might be replacing a cable box or other machine. But many people (like myself) would just be adding new functionality. So 1-3 don't apply at all. I don't think I can justify $300 TCO for a device I would use occasionally to watch something in the bedroom or exercise room (especially since right now I use RF and IR extender back to the TiVo in the great room.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:26 PM   #1044
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#3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.
How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.

That idea is dead on arrival.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:29 PM   #1045
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I agree. In fact I'd say $149 is more likely, with a lifetime cost of $200-$250 putting the total cost of the box at $400 or so.

The frustrating thing for me is that, while I have no problem affording this box financially, I have a problem rewarding what I see as bad/moronic behavior on TiVos part.

I think my Slingbox and Slingcatcher are going to get use for quite a while longer. Amazingly my Slingcatcher does not have a monthly or lifetime service fee and lets me do almost everything the TiVo Mini does.
Yep, unless the Mini gets apps like Netflix or Amazon then I would say that your current setup is as good as the Mini.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:30 PM   #1046
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How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.

That idea is dead on arrival.
I hope you're right but I could see Comcast trying to figure out a way to prevent the Mini from receiving XFINITY On Demand without the AO fee. Since XFINITY is sent via QAM to the host DVR and routed to the Mini you are correct that it should be difficult for them to justify the fee. I still think Comcast and others view extenders connected to TVs differently from 2nd screen apps that support streaming of video.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:39 PM   #1047
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How exactly is Comcast going to do that? The Mini can be connected via ethernet, etc, and is using services on the Main TiVo. It's hard for me to see how Comcast could charge a service fee for the Mini when they don't charge them for any of the other devices (iPads, laptops, etc) that have access to On Demand.

That idea is dead on arrival.
How can Comcast charge for something they shouldn't? Apparently with subscription/monthly fees there are no rules. TiVo will be doing a similar thing if they charge a monthly fee to let the TiVo mini run while all it does is suck data from a box you already paid a sub for.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:47 PM   #1048
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#3 is not necessarily true. I suspect that Comcast will still try to charge an additional outlet fee to light the Mini box up with XFINITY On Demand.

Keep in mind that the average home in the US has 2.5 set top boxes. My speculation is that the average TiVo home has 1 TiVo box and 1.5 cable operator supplied boxes.

Is there such a thing as a "free" cable box any more? FiOS charges $6.99 for a DTA...
My Triple play from Comcast comes with one HD cable box, it may not be free but if I turn it in I don't save any money, so to me it is free, with the package I have, for my cable cards, for some reason, Comcast does not charge me any AO fee, the bill at one time had a line for the A/O fee that was $0, now the bill does not even have a line for the A/O fee. I do have 4 CC and just pay for the cards ($1.15/month/per card)
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:06 PM   #1049
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Yep, unless the Mini gets apps like Netflix or Amazon then I would say that your current setup is as good as the Mini.
Well, it's not as good because there are a lot of input delays with the SlingCatcher and the video is a little over-compressed. If the Mini was priced sensibly ($149-$199 with no subscription fee) I would buy 2-3 of them.

This is just bad behavior on TiVos part and I don't think I can be a part of it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:30 PM   #1050
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My Triple play from Comcast comes with one HD cable box, it may not be free but if I turn it in I don't save any money, so to me it is free, with the package I have, for my cable cards, for some reason, Comcast does not charge me any AO fee, the bill at one time had a line for the A/O fee that was $0, now the bill does not even have a line for the A/O fee. I do have 4 CC and just pay for the cards ($1.15/month/per card)
You are one lucky user. At some point, my guess is that they will find this and restructure your pricing. Hopefully for you, that is no time soon.
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