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Old 02-20-2013, 04:03 PM   #961
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Discontinued? Wow that was quick!
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:48 PM   #962
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The bandwidth used for 24/7 live TV wouldn't be an issue for cable users who are only using MoCA for TiVos. HOWEVER, for FIOS users, for cable users who have built a MoCA backbone, this could be a serious issue. Realistically, even in a well-wired home, MoCA has about 75mbps of bandwidth. FIOS TV channels, since they are not re-compressed like cable, use upwards of the full 19mbps of bandwidth.

So, you do a couple of TiVo Mini streams, and you're already eating way into the 75mbps bandwidth available on FIOS internet, especially if you're using MoCA to get the FIOS signal into the house. If you have a pair of Premieres each with three TiVo Minis, and a whole backbone built out of MoCA, you could be in for some serious bandwidth issues already. Yes, that's an extreme case, but my point is, unlike GigE, MoCA doesn't just have effectively unlimited bandwidth, and while it's reliable and fast, you can fairly easily run out.

More tech-saavy users would run CAT-5 from the ONT to the router, or they would throw a band-pass filter in between two segments of the MoCA network to isolate them and then cross them back over through Ethernet, but not everyone would know to do that, or have the right wiring configuration to be able to do that.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:49 PM   #963
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The bandwidth used for 24/7 live TV wouldn't be an issue for cable users who are only using MoCA for TiVos. HOWEVER, for FIOS users, for cable users who have built a MoCA backbone, this could be a serious issue. Realistically, even in a well-wired home, MoCA has about 75mbps of bandwidth. FIOS TV channels, since they are not re-compressed like cable, use upwards of the full 19mbps of bandwidth.

So, you do a couple of TiVo Mini streams, and you're already eating way into the 75mbps bandwidth available on FIOS internet, especially if you're using MoCA to get the FIOS signal into the house. If you have a pair of Premieres each with three TiVo Minis, and a whole backbone built out of MoCA, you could be in for some serious bandwidth issues already. Yes, that's an extreme case, but my point is, unlike GigE, MoCA doesn't just have effectively unlimited bandwidth, and while it's reliable and fast, you can fairly easily run out.

More tech-saavy users would run CAT-5 from the ONT to the router, or they would throw a band-pass filter in between two segments of the MoCA network to isolate them and then cross them back over through Ethernet, but not everyone would know to do that, or have the right wiring configuration to be able to do that.
My MOCA speeds are about 240Mbps up and down. I have 3 Tivos on Moca and 2 computers on Moca and have no speed issues with all of them pulling data... and also TV runs on a different frequency that Moca both with verizon and most companies.


My TV here runs at about 860mhz and my Moca Network Operates just above 1Gig.

Last edited by compnurd : 02-20-2013 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:25 PM   #964
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Spotterman,

Can you confirm that the Mini is using Infrared rather than an RF remote. To test this you can put your hand over the front of the Mini remote to see if it still works.
Hand over the front of the Mini, it still recognizes remote commands.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:50 PM   #965
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Maybe the Best Buy TVs are or were meant to be that. What ever happened to them, and what was their purpose?
When I was in japan last, they had tons of TVs with 1tb hard drives in them
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:55 PM   #966
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When I was in japan last, they had tons of TVs with 1tb hard drives in them
In Japan, toilets have hard drives in them.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:57 PM   #967
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spotterman26 - what happens if you setup the Q to only allocate one tuner for network devices? Perhaps that's where the 1.5 hour time out comes into play? Maybe after 1.5 hours it relinquishes the tuner so the other one can use it? If that's the case I wonder if simply going into the menus by pressing TiVo would relinquish it immediately. (if it has the little preview window you might need to press Slow to turn it off, or turn it off permanently in settings)
Just got around to trying this. I set the Q to "Allow 1 tuner" and checked both Minis first. They were both connected. I put one in standby, and selected Live TV on the other. Live tv worked, just fine, so I went to the other mini and hit live tv and got this message:



The Mini that shows this message can access my Q, but not access Live TV. The other Mini gets Live TV and can access my Q also. And now my Q has it's 3rd tuner back.

Here is the standby option on the menu:

Here is the standby image, this goes away after a few seconds:

And the front of the Mini when in standby mode:

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Old 02-20-2013, 09:16 PM   #968
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Originally Posted by spotterman26 View Post
Just got around to trying this. I set the Q to "Allow 1 tuner" and checked both Minis first. They were both connected. I put one in standby, and selected Live TV on the other. Live tv worked, just fine, so I went to the other mini and hit live tv and got this message:



The Mini that shows this message can access my Q, but not access Live TV. The other Mini gets Live TV and can access my Q also. And now my Q has it's 3rd tuner back.

Here is the standby option on the menu:

Here is the standby image, this goes away after a few seconds:

And the front of the Mini when in standby mode:
Not bad... I could easily live with this solution.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:41 PM   #969
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My MOCA speeds are about 240Mbps up and down. I have 3 Tivos on Moca and 2 computers on Moca and have no speed issues with all of them pulling data... and also TV runs on a different frequency that Moca both with verizon and most companies.


My TV here runs at about 860mhz and my Moca Network Operates just above 1Gig.
Right, most cable operators stop at 860, including Comcast and Verizon FIOS, and MoCA will work with plants up to 1ghz. I never said anything that would suggest MoCA and cable interfere with each other. That's the whole point of MoCA, is that it doesn't, so you can lay MoCA on top of an existing cable system.

Iinteresting. They slipped out a new version of MoCA that is much faster. I can't find any reviews of it or good tests. How has anyone determined that they can do 240mbps, with the MoCA adapters themselves maxing out with Base-100TX? Were they crossing multiple traffic paths on a single coax system? I did see the Amazon reviewers were cable to saturate the Base-100TX, which is a good sign. With all that, Verizon FIOS users should have no issue with 75mbps of bandwidth coming in, and a few HD video streams flying around the house.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:20 AM   #970
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OK, sooooooo now this is just getting absolutely ridiculous.

Why are they not selling this thing for retail yet?

What's the excuse now? Delayed again until summer 2013?
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:36 AM   #971
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OK, sooooooo now this is just getting absolutely ridiculous.

Why are they not selling this thing for retail yet?

What's the excuse now? Delayed again until summer 2013?
They probably want to gauge Suddenlink problems before opening the floodgates. We're hopefully weeks away...
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:42 AM   #972
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Definitely in March. I recently received a notice for a TiVo retail training session. Mine is set for Tuesday.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:17 AM   #973
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Right, most cable operators stop at 860, including Comcast and Verizon FIOS, and MoCA will work with plants up to 1ghz. I never said anything that would suggest MoCA and cable interfere with each other. That's the whole point of MoCA, is that it doesn't, so you can lay MoCA on top of an existing cable system.

Iinteresting. They slipped out a new version of MoCA that is much faster. I can't find any reviews of it or good tests. How has anyone determined that they can do 240mbps, with the MoCA adapters themselves maxing out with Base-100TX? Were they crossing multiple traffic paths on a single coax system? I did see the Amazon reviewers were cable to saturate the Base-100TX, which is a good sign. With all that, Verizon FIOS users should have no issue with 75mbps of bandwidth coming in, and a few HD video streams flying around the house.
The newer Verizon routers for over the last year have a Gig Switch built in....

Even Still your bandwidth is point to point/router, not saturated by everything else.

Last edited by compnurd : 02-21-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:17 AM   #974
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Right, most cable operators stop at 860, including Comcast and Verizon FIOS, and MoCA will work with plants up to 1ghz. I never said anything that would suggest MoCA and cable interfere with each other. That's the whole point of MoCA, is that it doesn't, so you can lay MoCA on top of an existing cable system.

Iinteresting. They slipped out a new version of MoCA that is much faster. I can't find any reviews of it or good tests. How has anyone determined that they can do 240mbps, with the MoCA adapters themselves maxing out with Base-100TX? Were they crossing multiple traffic paths on a single coax system? I did see the Amazon reviewers were cable to saturate the Base-100TX, which is a good sign. With all that, Verizon FIOS users should have no issue with 75mbps of bandwidth coming in, and a few HD video streams flying around the house.
Even with Verizon MoCA you can get speeds faster than 75Mb/s. When you have two or three or four MoCA devices in the Network, the maximum speeds are actually faster than with only one MoCA device. But most of the MoCA adapters only have 100BT connections so the backbone bandwidth will exceed 100Mb/s but the actual connection to the device will not exceed it. I had a couple of Dlink MoCA adapters along with the FiOS MoCA in use for a short while when I was messing around with MoCA on my Elites. The backbone bandwidth easily exceeded 100Mb/s. But it did not exceed it to the point that I would get speeds from all those devices on MoCA that I would match the speeds I got with a GigE Backbone(when the devices were transferring concurrently). So I took those devices off MoCA and went back to Ethernet connections for those devices.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:25 AM   #975
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Not bad... I could easily live with this solution.

Hmmm.... agreed. This is a half-way point between truly dynamic tuner allocation and permanent tuner allocation.


Now lets release this puppy to the general public.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:49 AM   #976
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Hmmm.... agreed. This is a half-way point between truly dynamic tuner allocation and permanent tuner allocation.


Now lets release this puppy to the general public.
Nobody can half-bake something quite like TiVo!
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:43 AM   #977
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Megazone's original reporting mentioned that Minis would share from a pool of tuners, so it's not surprising. Knowing this, I had thought we wouldn't be limited to 2 Minis, but I guess we still will be anyway. At least for now (XL6).
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:21 PM   #978
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Nobody can half-bake something quite like TiVo!
Exactly, like not supporting us lowly two-tuner DVR owners...
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:32 PM   #979
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Well that's F-ed up... I think. They ran my photo, my hand, and my wedding ring.
You ought to contact their General Counsel with and inquire how they intend to compensate you for Copyright Violation.

They wouldn't be happy if someone stole cable service from them, so it's hypocritical that they'll steal your intellectual property and likeness with no compunction.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:27 PM   #980
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You ought to contact their General Counsel with and inquire how they intend to compensate you for Copyright Violation.

They wouldn't be happy if someone stole cable service from them, so it's hypocritical that they'll steal your intellectual property and likeness with no compunction.
This is the same awful cable company that shuts your Internet off for torrenting tv programs. I hate them. But I love TiVo. Common mini!!!
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:17 PM   #981
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The newer Verizon routers for over the last year have a Gig Switch built in....

Even Still your bandwidth is point to point/router, not saturated by everything else.
But where would you offload that? Or saturate two and a half endpoint adapters with a gig source hardwired to the router?

Quote:
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Even with Verizon MoCA you can get speeds faster than 75Mb/s. When you have two or three or four MoCA devices in the Network, the maximum speeds are actually faster than with only one MoCA device. But most of the MoCA adapters only have 100BT connections so the backbone bandwidth will exceed 100Mb/s but the actual connection to the device will not exceed it. I had a couple of Dlink MoCA adapters along with the FiOS MoCA in use for a short while when I was messing around with MoCA on my Elites. The backbone bandwidth easily exceeded 100Mb/s. But it did not exceed it to the point that I would get speeds from all those devices on MoCA that I would match the speeds I got with a GigE Backbone(when the devices were transferring concurrently). So I took those devices off MoCA and went back to Ethernet connections for those devices.
Yeah, the backbone ends up serving a similar function to the backplane on an Ethernet switch in that case... 240mbps gives it a lot of breathing room even with a bunch of devices flinging HD video around plus internet...

We're coming a long way in getting networking for people who don't have CAT-5 run everywhere up to the level that hard wired CAT-5 would give. Of course 240mbps on a backbone is a long way off from 1gbps to any port, BUT for most residential users, it is more than enough.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:00 PM   #982
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But where would you offload that? Or saturate two and a half endpoint adapters with a gig source hardwired to the router?



Yeah, the backbone ends up serving a similar function to the backplane on an Ethernet switch in that case... 240mbps gives it a lot of breathing room even with a bunch of devices flinging HD video around plus internet...

We're coming a long way in getting networking for people who don't have CAT-5 run everywhere up to the level that hard wired CAT-5 would give. Of course 240mbps on a backbone is a long way off from 1gbps to any port, BUT for most residential users, it is more than enough.
Dont forget, with the exception of the 4 and the XL4, the rest of the line up only had a 100Mbit ethernet port.... so no matter what you are limited to that....
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:38 PM   #983
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You ought to contact their General Counsel with and inquire how they intend to compensate you for Copyright Violation.
I sent them (and CED Magazine) a polite note and they appropriately added a photo credit. You'd be surprised how often this happens. (Or maybe not.) Google's got a decent DMCA tool which you can use to request a de-indexing the offending page, which I've been forced to employ on several occasions (normally in relation to posts reproduced in their entirety) - but this is a better scenario and outcome, as it's win/win. They learn something about grabbing content without attribution and retain a decent, representative pic, and I get a little link love. Symbiotic is best.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:27 PM   #984
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Dont forget, with the exception of the 4 and the XL4, the rest of the line up only had a 100Mbit ethernet port.... so no matter what you are limited to that....
I was thinking more in general than just for TiVo. Some people are using MoCA as a backbone for their whole network...
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:28 PM   #985
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I was thinking more in general than just for TiVo. Some people are using MoCA as a backbone for their whole network...
I suppose that for someone who did not want to spend the money to back-haul CAT5e that might be true.... CAT5e and gigabit switches are cheap though, and UTP cable is pretty easy to run to most locations.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:37 PM   #986
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I'm using MoCA for a main link within my house, because running cat5 is impossible. I suppose ethernet would be faster, but this is an upgrade from the Wi-Fi repeaters we had in place beforehand. It also allowed me to remove at least 10 devices from Wi-Fi, which improved wireless for the laptops and phones that still rely on it.

I only run 100Mb ethernet anyway, so there's no loss there.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:56 PM   #987
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I suppose that for someone who did not want to spend the money to back-haul CAT5e that might be true.... CAT5e and gigabit switches are cheap though, and UTP cable is pretty easy to run to most locations.

Not if you rent. You have to live with the wiring you have available.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:56 AM   #988
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Not if you rent. You have to live with the wiring you have available.
exactly. i am renting a condo right now while my house is built so MOCA is my only option and has caused no slow downs
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:48 AM   #989
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Just got around to trying this.
Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:56 AM   #990
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Do you have a power measuring device? I'm curious what electricity the Mini consumes on standby and during active use. If it is less than a Premiere or HD then adopters can see additional savings on the electric bill.
I may have a Kill-A-Watt somewhere if spotterman wants to try. Can't recall if I already gave it away though. Will check tonight if need be.
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