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Old 02-08-2013, 06:25 PM   #1
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Different type of "reboot" problem!

I have upgraded my 3 THD's to 1TB drives and they have been fine for 3+ years now. The one in the bedroom had a noisy fan so I replaced it. Other than that it has 1 issue that bugs me.

I leave the tuners on different HD stations. Every few days they are both on the same station...like when you have a reboot. Sometimes I can hear the fan go into high speed, which I assume is a reboot.

However, here is the strange part, this NEVER happens when it is doing a scheduled record and never happens during playback. I get NO FREEZES! I record the news at night at 11PM, and tell it to save 1 show. That way we can watch whenever we get in the Bedroom, and it only has 1 nights worth of news that gets overwritten the next night. From the deleted list I guess it does delete and records new. RARELY, when I just go to live TV on that station it will reboot, but that has only happened a few times EVER during these 3+ years. I would suspect PS and/or HDD but this seems like it would effect shows I record, etc. This seems like it must be something else. I suppose I "could" pull the HDD and run diags, but wonder if anyone knows what else to look for. Is it possible that the >250 deleted shows could be causing it? It sure would be a pain to delete them 1 at a time!
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:52 PM   #2
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I am surprised that there have been no suggestions yet.

I do have a question relating to this, however. Is there a way to see when the TIVO HD thinks it did a reboot? I can see where it has connected for guide updates, but can we tell when it did the last reboot?
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:23 PM   #3
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I do have a question relating to this, however. Is there a way to see when the TIVO HD thinks it did a reboot? I can see where it has connected for guide updates, but can we tell when it did the last reboot?
Yes. Go to the DVR Diagnostics screen, page down a few times and look for the line "Time Since OOB Tune Start". Display is given in seconds, so you'll have to do the math to get to minutes/hours/days.

As for your rebooting problem, does it only happen when you tune that one channel? If so, it might be "toxic".

Do a forum search for toxic channels.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:41 AM   #4
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I have upgraded my 3 THD's to 1TB drives and they have been fine for 3+ years now. The one in the bedroom had a noisy fan so I replaced it. Other than that it has 1 issue that bugs me.

I leave the tuners on different HD stations. Every few days they are both on the same station...like when you have a reboot. Sometimes I can hear the fan go into high speed, which I assume is a reboot.

However, here is the strange part, this NEVER happens when it is doing a scheduled record and never happens during playback. I get NO FREEZES! I record the news at night at 11PM, and tell it to save 1 show. That way we can watch whenever we get in the Bedroom, and it only has 1 nights worth of news that gets overwritten the next night. From the deleted list I guess it does delete and records new. RARELY, when I just go to live TV on that station it will reboot, but that has only happened a few times EVER during these 3+ years. I would suspect PS and/or HDD but this seems like it would effect shows I record, etc. This seems like it must be something else. I suppose I "could" pull the HDD and run diags, but wonder if anyone knows what else to look for. Is it possible that the >250 deleted shows could be causing it? It sure would be a pain to delete them 1 at a time!

That sounds kinda like a scheduled reboot, like after a software patch download so it can switch to the alternate OS partitions.

It tries it's best to do it when nobody's using the TiVo.

Of course they haven't updated the software in who knows how long.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:01 PM   #5
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I know that there has been no update in a very long time.

Anyway, I tried the dvr diagnostics screen and it says Please Wait. I could not page down or do anything to get to an OOB Tune Start screen. I thought it was in system info, but it was not.

I had to pull the power to get out of the Diagnostics screen. Is there a Number code to get me out of it? Just what was it waiting for?
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:18 PM   #6
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Anyway, I tried the dvr diagnostics screen and it says Please Wait. I could not page down or do anything to get to an OOB Tune Start screen. I thought it was in system info, but it was not.

I had to pull the power to get out of the Diagnostics screen. Is there a Number code to get me out of it? Just what was it waiting for?
No, no number code. It's a bug. Sometimes you get stuck on the please wait screen.
Of course as you found out, you have to pull the plug and reboot.
After the reboot, you should be able to get to the DVR diagnostics screen.
Of course, there's no point now - you know when your Tivo last rebooted.


Odd thing, this only afflicts one of my TivoHDs, the one that I upgraded to 2 TB.
The other one which still has the original hard drive has never gotten stuck accessing DVR diagnostics. Hrm.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:36 PM   #7
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No, no number code. It's a bug. Sometimes you get stuck on the please wait screen.
Of course as you found out, you have to pull the plug and reboot.
After the reboot, you should be able to get to the DVR diagnostics screen.
Of course, there's no point now - you know when your Tivo last rebooted.


Odd thing, this only afflicts one of my TivoHDs, the one that I upgraded to 2 TB.
The other one which still has the original hard drive has never gotten stuck accessing DVR diagnostics. Hrm.
Did you increase the size of the swap partition when you embiggened the drive size?
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:15 PM   #8
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Well, you are correct. After a reboot I sure do not need to check. I also did not remember changing the swap size.


One thing I did see somewhere, and I am going to try it now, is that OOB can be viewed from the CableCard menu...I think CC diags. I will look now and see what happens. The one I tried that I needed to pull the plug on is a THD that I upgraded to 1TB (like the other 2) and has been running for 4 years without ANYTHING going wrong! So, I can still try this on the THD that I am having the strange reboot issue on.

OK, UPDATE. I guess the CableCard comes up with the Diagnostics screen.

My last boot was about 14 hours ago so that makes it about 1:30 AM. I showed about 50,594 seconds. Anyway, that THD had no issue with going into Diagnostics. I show a sig level of 100 and both tuners were on CH 508, which is the NBC HD station. Signal is 100 and S/N is 37db. I see about 500 uncorrectable errors and from the past I do not think that is a lot for 14+ hours. Is this all OK? I will see what I see tomorrow and see if I can determine a pattern.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:00 PM   #9
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Did you increase the size of the swap partition when you embiggened the drive size?
Nope. Copied and expanded with JMFS and supersized with WinMFS shortly after JMFS was introduced. I don't remember the swap partition being discussed all that much back then.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:59 PM   #10
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Well, it has been a while and here is what I found....

I created an Excel sheet that will take the seconds from the boot (OOB) and subtract it from the time I took the OOB reading. I seem to have the THD reboot every 2 or 3 days.

However the thing that does not make sense is that it is the only "issue" I have. Both tuners are then set to the same station...that is it. All shows record OK, play OK, and I can watch live OK. No freezes or anything, etc So, does this mean that there may be a reason for this...like a high number of uncorrected errors on the stream from a station? So far, it almost looks like if it were on a different system it would be OK. If I sold it, I don't know what to say. It seems Perfect in every way!
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:06 PM   #11
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If it's not plugged into a UPS, you've got an uncontrollable variable, so to speak.

If you get a little voltage sag in the middle of the night and your power supply is just beginning to get marginal, it could drop just enough to reset the TiVo's CPU.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:56 PM   #12
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If it's not plugged into a UPS, you've got an uncontrollable variable, so to speak.

If you get a little voltage sag in the middle of the night and your power supply is just beginning to get marginal, it could drop just enough to reset the TiVo's CPU.
Well, I do have a UPS that is only powering a switch and Phone. I can move the cord to another UPS and try this on this THD. It is only 500VA, but that should be more than enough for a THD. I am not sure it will matter, but it is worth a try. A few reboots are mid day. Strange that this NEVER happens when we record or watch anything, however.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #13
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Just an update...

I seem to have these reboots every 2 days or so. I even made a spreadsheet to take the time I look at the OOB and subtract the seconds. That is how I know how often and when it reboots. It is NOT at the same time every 2 or 3 days. I wonder if it is the AC power? I will try a UPS as I do have one I do not need. I also was thinking of putting the original HDD back in. I know I can go to tivo.com and put the season pass back on to the original drive, but won't it get removed when I put the original drive back in and ir reconnects to update the guide and software?
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:57 PM   #14
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I'd say at this point, you might as well open it up to check things out.

Rule out the power supply being a problem before you start messing with swapping the hard drive.

Do you have access to a digital multi-meter?
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:28 PM   #15
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I'd say at this point, you might as well open it up to check things out.

Rule out the power supply being a problem before you start messing with swapping the hard drive.

Do you have access to a digital multi-meter?
Yes. However, I can at least move my UPS to the THD. I keep thinking that any PS issue or line issue...or even HDD issue would be random. WHY is it OK to record, play, or even watch live TV? It has rebooted if I switch tuners, but that has only happened once or twice.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:38 PM   #16
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Yes. However, I can at least move my UPS to the THD. I keep thinking that any PS issue or line issue...or even HDD issue would be random. WHY is it OK to record, play, or even watch live TV? It has rebooted if I switch tuners, but that has only happened once or twice.
If your TiVo's power supply is marginal, then it's less able to ride out any glitches and dips on the power coming in and less able to handle a momentary extra load on the output side, and power to the CPU only has to dip below a certain point for a very short fraction of a second to cause it to reset.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:34 PM   #17
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If your TiVo's power supply is marginal, then it's less able to ride out any glitches and dips on the power coming in and less able to handle a momentary extra load on the output side, and power to the CPU only has to dip below a certain point for a very short fraction of a second to cause it to reset.
OK, well I will move the UPS there anyway. Will need to see the PS specs as well so I can tell with my DVM(s) if there is an issue and look at the caps.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:51 PM   #18
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OK, well I will move the UPS there anyway. Will need to see the PS specs as well so I can tell with my DVM(s) if there is an issue and look at the caps.
Yellow +12V

Red +5V

Orange +3.3V

If it's a 648 there's a brown or gray wire that's around 8 or 9 Volts that's just for the OLED display and unlikely to have a problem.

Black, of course, is ground.

Just backprobe the plug on the motherboard.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:08 PM   #19
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Yellow +12V

Red +5V

Orange +3.3V

If it's a 648 there's a brown or gray wire that's around 8 or 9 Volts that's just for the OLED display and unlikely to have a problem.

Black, of course, is ground.

Just backprobe the plug on the motherboard.
I have the 652160 THD.

I just connected the UPS, but will check the PS soon. How much can they vary and still be considered OK?
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:20 PM   #20
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I have the 652160 THD.

I just connected the UPS, but will check the PS soon. How much can they vary and still be considered OK?
Post what you get, and we'll read the goat entrails and the phase of the moon.

Take readings with the hard drive connected and with it disconnected.

If you can alligator clamp the meter's - lead to the chassis away from the power supply so as to just have to use one hand to hold the + lead, do so.

And always know where both ends of the TiVo's power cord are.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:51 PM   #21
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Post what you get, and we'll read the goat entrails and the phase of the moon.

Take readings with the hard drive connected and with it disconnected.

If you can alligator clamp the meter's - lead to the chassis away from the power supply so as to just have to use one hand to hold the + lead, do so.

And always know where both ends of the TiVo's power cord are.
OK, I will try to do this tomorrow.
BTW, I have been a Ham Radio Operator for 55+ years and am used to dealing with RF and voltages in the multi KV range.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:55 PM   #22
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...
BTW, I have been a Ham Radio Operator for 55+ years and am used to dealing with RF and voltages in the multi KV range.
What are the odds the next person searching this site for helpful threads will be?
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:14 PM   #23
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What are the odds the next person searching this site for helpful threads will be?
Not very high. I hope the CAPS are fine as I am still surprised that this does not seem too random.

Is there an uncorrectable count that can cause the THD to reboot?
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:41 PM   #24
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Not very high. I hope the CAPS are fine as I am still surprised that this does not seem too random.

Is there an uncorrectable count that can cause the THD to reboot?
If the 'lytics need replacing, better it happen to you who can do it for $10 in parts and have enough left over for a soda than to someone who doesn't know which end of a soldering iron to hold.

The only uncorrectable count of whom I am aware is A. Lucard.

(in other words, I have no idea what you meant by that sentence)
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:37 PM   #25
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If the 'lytics need replacing, better it happen to you who can do it for $10 in parts and have enough left over for a soda than to someone who doesn't know which end of a soldering iron to hold.

The only uncorrectable count of whom I am aware is A. Lucard.

(in other words, I have no idea what you meant by that sentence)
Well, I unplugged the THD and am ready to measure the voltage(s). The uncorrectable count is shown on each tuner when you do DVR Diags an look for the OOB.

P.S. The proper end of the Soldering iron can be learned after 1 error!
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:55 PM   #26
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...

P.S. The proper end of the Soldering iron can be learned after 1 error!
Some of us wind up taking refresher courses.


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Old 03-16-2013, 06:32 PM   #27
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Some of us wind up taking refresher courses.

OK, this just in!

I have TCD652160.

PS is SPWR 00011 000 RevB2

NO bulging caps...not even the slightest. I looked at all of them but especially C501, C502, C701 and C504.

Voltages...or is that E is as follows.

With No HDD

5V measures 4.87 V
3.3V measures 3.33 V
12V measures 12.32 V

With HDD and TIVO rebooted and running...

5V measures 4.91 V
3.3V measures 3.33 V
12V measures 12.19 V

Now I have it on the UPS. I believe the PS is good. My next step is to leave it alone and see if it reboots on the UPS. If so, I can put the original HDD back in (I have the WD10EARS in there now) and see what happens. I will need a software update and season passes redone, but I only have 2 shows left now on the 1T drive, so it would be a good time to see if it is the HDD. If so, I can use UBCD to retest the 1T drive and see if that helps. Perhaps write all zero's anyway. I hope going back to the original HDD will not make the MCard mess up!
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:41 PM   #28
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OK, this just in!

I have TCD652160.

PS is SPWR 00011 000 RevB2

NO bulging caps...not even the slightest. I looked at all of them but especially C501, C502, C701 and C504.

Voltages...or is that E is as follows.

With No HDD

5V measures 4.87 V
3.3V measures 3.33 V
12V measures 12.32 V

With HDD and TIVO rebooted and running...

5V measures 4.91 V
3.3V measures 3.33 V
12V measures 12.19 V

Now I have it on the UPS. I believe the PS is good. My next step is to leave it alone and see if it reboots on the UPS. If so, I can put the original HDD back in (I have the WD10EARS in there now) and see what happens. I will need a software update and season passes redone, but I only have 2 shows left now on the 1T drive, so it would be a good time to see if it is the HDD. If so, I can use UBCD to retest the 1T drive and see if that helps. Perhaps write all zero's anyway. I hope going back to the original HDD will not make the MCard mess up!
If you've got a 'scope you could check for excess ripple on the 5 and/or 12, but that PS is probably good, which means the problem is going to be harder to track down and fix.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:59 PM   #29
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If you've got a 'scope you could check for excess ripple on the 5 and/or 12, but that PS is probably good, which means the problem is going to be harder to track down and fix.
Well, I think I will let it run and see if, somehow, the UPS helped at all. If not, it would be worth trying to put the original HDD back in. I believe it is still configured for Verizon FiOS, but Frontier took over. That is why I hope the MCard will still work and I hesitate to play with that on a weekend!

OH, I do have a very expensive storage scope made by a local company :-), but I am not sure it would be worth digging up the probes!
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:22 PM   #30
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Well, after 2 days it did another reboot. As usual, nothing is lost. So, the UPS did not do anything and the PS is fine.

So, I want to take my 1TB WD10EARS out and put the original drive back in. I know it will need to update the Software and guide data. I hope the MCard will configure OK, but how can I put the Season Pass from the 1T drive back on the original drive? I am not woried about the shows as this is a good time...only 2 or 3 are on the WD10EARS now.

I looked online and the 1T drives 16 season passes are there but when I put the original Tivo drive back in, won't all of the updating mess up the season pass info on the tivo.com site? I mean won't it put the OLD season passes from the Original drive up on TIVO.COM while all the updating is going on?
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