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Old 12-17-2012, 11:20 PM   #31
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I saw it in 48fps and loved every minute! Non-distracting 3D, and bringing in Mandy Patinkin as Radagast was a brilliant maneuver.

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Old 12-17-2012, 11:55 PM   #32
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I saw it in 48fps and loved every minute! Non-distracting 3D, and bringing in Mandy Patinkin as Radagast was a brilliant maneuver.

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:03 AM   #33
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I'm not sure, all these threads run together with so many folks who simply can't be entertained anymore.

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:13 AM   #34
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I can't wait for next season. And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.
I am so glad I am not the only one with this opinion. I am sure I am going to get flamed big time, but for the life of me I cannot understand the unbelievable, incredible scrutiny that television shows are subjected to by people like us who post on message boards.

I agree 100% that in season 2, there have been a bunch of plot holes (although, as Sepinwall pointed out, some of them were somewhat explained or at least mitigated with this episode). There were more than a few moments where I rolled my eyes- the biggest for me, and the one that I cannot defend, was Brody being alone in the room when the VP dies, and no one even thinks to think of him as being responsible.

But there is pretty much no television show or movie that can stand up to the microscopic nit picking that goes on today. I can't believe that after watching this show for 2 seasons, that anyone can just say-"that's it, I am out- I am not watching this ever again".

Its just a television show- I just don't get how every show, every scene has to be perfection, or all hell breaks loose in the message board community. If you hold everything to this level of expectation, you are bound to be disappointed by everything you watch on television- I don't see how you can be satisfied with any show. Nothing can live up to that kind of scrutiny. Reading this thread sounds just like the Killing threads after last season.

I would like to know what shows the people who moan and complain about this one watch- because to me its a very small list of shows that are better and more entertaining than this one.

As I said, I agree 100% that this season, as a whole, was not as good as season 1, and that there were too many plot holes and things that just would not happen in real life. But this is entertainment, not a documentary.

Yes, the show could have been even better than it is- agree 100%- but it is still an incredibly entertaining television show, one that, even with the holes, is better than 99% of the crap that is on television today.

Again, just to be clear, I agree with some of the criticism on here- but that is not enough to make me quit the show or to not say that it is still one of the best things on television. Like getreal, I can't wait for another season, and will be watching to the end.

Just my opinion- I am sure I'm going to be in the vast minority and get killed for these comments, but I would love to know if there is anyone else out there still entertained enough to keep watching, and enjoying, the next season.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:47 AM   #35
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Dwells, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's a matter of expectations. They set up the first season to be some of the best TV in recent memory. Different, exciting, believable.

But now they've taken that all away,and we're disappointed. We all want it to go back to the way it was. And since it's not that, it's frustrating to see all these plot holes you can drive a car[bomb] through.

So think of it more as venting than criticizing. It's still a good show, but it moved from "you know, this could actually happen" to "eh, it's just a bunch of drama/action writing and I *really* have to suspend my disbelief to watch the show". I'm not saying it jumped the shark, but it's gone way past "believable" now, unfortunately.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:45 AM   #36
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It's still a good show, but it moved from "you know, this could actually happen" to "eh, it's just a bunch of drama/action writing and I *really* have to suspend my disbelief to watch the show".
Or "Beat my suspension of disbelief into unconsciousness and lock it in the cellar."

I'm not even sure it's a good show any more. I think it's a bad show with sensational acting. Can you imagine what this season would have been like with ordinary actors? At least I have almost a year to decide if that acting makes it worth watching.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:04 AM   #37
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BTW, during last weeks discussion about if/when/how Brody was going away, I was wondering what they would do with the opening credits.

Interestingly, this last episode had no opening credits at all.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:26 AM   #38
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This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.

Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?

He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:25 AM   #39
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This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.

Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?

He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.
Not to mention the fact that she was complicit in the VPs murder.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:33 AM   #40
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Not to mention the fact that she was complicit in the VPs murder.
And then there's the whole hiding the fact that you're literally insane from your employer who happens to be the CIA thing, which should be pretty much a career-stopper, not a stepping stone to Station Chief...

I think a lot of what went wrong with the show stems from how good and unconventional the first season was. There was really no way back from a lot of things (Carrie's CIA career, Brody's terrorism), but they had to walk it back to convert it from a brilliant season into an ongoing series.

I've never seen the original, nor do I know much about it. But I wouldn't be surprised if the first season was a pretty direct adaptation, and the second the American producers trying to find their own way.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #41
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This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.

Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?

He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.
Well there's your problem, it is NOT the goal of the show to make her a patriotic law enforcement agent.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:54 AM   #42
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Setting aside all the plot holes, I still have a huge problem with the Carrie-Brody romance. Sexual heat, ok, I can buy that. Making eyes and playing house at the cabin by the lake, no, that was embarrassing. Carrie risking her dream career for a married terrorist with children?

I was a huge Carrie fan in season 1. Season 2 turned her into a ridiculous figure and very unlikeable.

For those enjoying Mandy Patinkin's performance, check out Dead Like Me. His character there had much the same attitude and it was a great show.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:06 AM   #43
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For those enjoying Mandy Patinkin's performance, check out Dead Like Me. His character there had much the same attitude and it was a great show.

I loved him in Dead Like Me
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:44 AM   #44
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Interview with Showrunners by Maureen Ryan. No real spoilers, only in a very broad sense, as in their thoughts on how they might play the next season.

This is a different interview than the one I posted yesterday.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2316656.html
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:49 AM   #45
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This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.

Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?

He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.
I agree with everything here. With the awards the show, Lewis and Danes received I suppose Showtime was keen on keeping them around as long as possible. The plot holes bother me, but not enough to keep from watching the show
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:03 PM   #46
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Interview with Showrunners by Maureen Ryan. No real spoilers, only in a very broad sense, as in their thoughts on how they might play the next season.

This is a different interview than the one I posted yesterday.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2316656.html
In Sepinwall's article, he mentions the showrunners would be having a post-mortem conference call this morning, and he'd be posting about it later. I'm thinking that's what Maureen Ryan's interview is from. Maybe.

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:03 PM   #47
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Interview with Showrunners by Maureen Ryan. No real spoilers, only in a very broad sense, as in their thoughts on how they might play the next season.

This is a different interview than the one I posted yesterday.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2316656.html
Alan Sepinwall's take on the same interview...

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wat...-from-season-2



One excerpt, addressing the "keep the stars around" controversy...

Quote:
But Gordon also acknowledged that any motivation they would have for keeping Lewis in the fold wouldn't come from the fact that he's the reigning Emmy winner for lead actor in a drama series.

"Obviously, you can't let the tail wag the dog," he said. "All the awards in the world won't give rise to a character or a story that's either run its course or had whatever shelf life it has. As Alex has said, we love this relationship, it's become one of the defining pillars of the show... Whenever the relationship is no longer the center of the show. I think as tempting as it is, and as afraid as we are, you can't let all the awards and acclaim — and Damian's brilliance — dictate the story in terms of where it needs to go."

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #48
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...Claire Danes is pregnant.
YeahIKnow. How much baby bump you gonna see from her back? I'm guessing she couldn't stand very long.

Then again, if you watched the last ep closely you can see where they cut to the double in full length long shots, mostly when she's walking away.

They also have her in really loose navy blue blouses and pants.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #49
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I am so glad I am not the only one with this opinion. I am sure I am going to get flamed big time, but for the life of me I cannot understand the unbelievable, incredible scrutiny that television shows are subjected to by people like us who post on message boards.

I agree 100% that in season 2, there have been a bunch of plot holes

. . .

Yes, the show could have been even better than it is- agree 100%- but it is still an incredibly entertaining television show, one that, even with the holes, is better than 99% of the crap that is on television today.

. . .


I agree 100%. Yes, this season was not as great as last season and its getting a little more like "24" in some of its unbelieveable plot holes. BUT its still orders of magnitude better than most of the other shows out there and I DO look forward to the next season!!

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:36 PM   #50
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...Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?
...
Sure. Carrie will prove to Saul that Brody didn't have anything to do with the car bomb, ....ummm becuase she was with him looking to get some nookie in Saul's office so they can clear his name...except for that A MEMBER OF CONGRESS attempted a plot to blow up the Vice-President of the United States and SecDef with a suicide vest - complete with video confession, murdered Tom Walker on Nazir's order, caused the death of the tailor bomb maker while attempting to save him, and paid a key role in the murder of the Vice-President, Brody is CLEAN!

Oh. There's that minor matter of the coverup of the hit-and-run death that will make for a nice weekend news story.

Then Carrie and Nick live happily ever after.

Brody can write a memoir and get rich!
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:24 PM   #51
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Dwells, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's a matter of expectations. They set up the first season to be some of the best TV in recent memory. Different, exciting, believable.
Not really. Season 1 had a lot of plot problems and holes towards the end. It had just earned a bit of slack by then. This season certainly had more plot issues, but it's not like everything in season 1 was credible.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:34 PM   #52
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But it was credible "enough". That's my point.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:13 PM   #53
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There were too many plot holes to count.

Quinn suddenly falls in love with Carrie and Brody seconds before shooting Brody?

Estes has balls of steel but becomes a little girl when threatened by Quinn?

No one bothers to check cars for bombs when they enter CIA headquarters? That's standard procedure at every sensitive building in DC. (The guy with the mirror on a pole that he sticks under the car)

Every other CIA bigwig was at the ceremony but not Saul? The President doesn't show up for a major event honoring his dead VP?

Brody's face is on every tv screen and newspaper in the world but a false driver's license will be enough for him to escape?
Those are only plot holes if you're bound and determined to find them.

1) Quinn didn't "fall in love" with Carrie and Brody. He just realized there was no reason to kill them. (Of course, as it turns out, he was wrong). He's allowed to have his own moral code, especially when the entire op was off the books and Estes has no control over him. (See below.)

2) Estes is a suit - and a former analyst. Quinn is a wet ops killer. He knows that Quinn could kill him without batting an eye and no one would ever know, and he also knows that he has no direct control over him (the CIA has two separate branches: Intelligence and Ops, and Estes is Deputy Director on the Intelligence side, but has no direct control over the Ops side. Quinn reports to Dar Adal, not Estes).

3) I'm assuming that whoever planted the C4 did it after Brody passed through security. Presumably the same person also moved Brody's Tahoe so that it would maximize the carnage.

4) This was a private CIA ceremony because Walden was formerly the head of the CIA. Presumably the President was present at whatever formal funeral there was. Saul was not high enough in the CIA to where he would have had to be there. (Since Estes was DDI, at most Saul was the head of a sub-group), and he probably didn't want to be there.

5) Not really - wasn't the plan to walk over the border at an unmanned area, and then get on a private boat? I can't remember the details. But they certainly didn't rely exclusively on fake IDs.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:18 PM   #54
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And more plot holes occurred to me. You have the biggest terror attack since 9/11. Your prime suspect is Brody. The most the FBI can muster to search the prime suspect's house is 4 agents, who appear to mostly just wander around it and allow his family to stay there while they "search". Sepinwall mentioned a good one - with all the security surrounded the ceremony, no one noticed that a lone car was parked near the building.

The bombing was near DC. Carrie and Brody drive to the Canadian border. The closest walking across point would be in upstate New York. That's a minimum 9-10 hour drive each way, yet Carrie is back with Saul only a relatively short time after the bombing.

Dana didn't seem too concerned that Finn was blown up, although she did have a lot on her mind.
Still not plot holes.

1) This was inside a presumably secure perimeter, so security would probably be a little lax. That's what Nazir was counting on - that people's guard would be let down. There has to be a mole who placed the C4 in Brody's Tahoe and then moved it next to the building.

2) It seemed like Carrie came back the day after the bombin, no? The bombing took place during the daytime. Carrie said goodbye to Brody the border drop-off at night, and then it was daylight when she showed herself to Saul.

3) Seriously? You think that's a plot hole?
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:26 PM   #55
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1) Quinn didn't "fall in love" with Carrie and Brody. He just realized there was no reason to kill them. (Of course, as it turns out, he was wrong). He's allowed to have his own moral code, especially when the entire op was off the books and Estes has no control over him. (See below.)
Nope. If you're job is to be an assassin for the CIA, how in what way is it acceptable to not do the job. Him not doing the task he was given to do is foolish.

Also the same CIA, in both fiction and non-fiction worlds, collect info and organize drone strikes. Innocents get caught up all the time in drone strikes but it's deemed acceptable. Brody is also anything but an innocent. He wore a suicide bomb, he helped kill the VP (even though no one never looked into how/why the VP died suddenly. Really?!). Even if we just ignored the fact Estes and the VP were dirty and killing Brody would cover up their sins, Brody deserved to die.

The writers intentionally wrote the fact that no one investigated the sudden heart attack of the VP, that Quinn is now a black ops guy with a conscience (which will probably eat at him next season if he's still on the show), and true love conquers all, even though the people in love are bat **** crazy.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:30 PM   #56
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We don't know that it was even the next day that carrie was back. I thought they made some throw away remark that it would take days to clear out the bodies, and then we saw all of them in a body bag. I had assumed it had been a couple of days.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:32 PM   #57
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We don't know that it was even the next day that carrie was back. I thought they made some throw away remark that it would take days to clear out the bodies, and then we saw all of them in a body bag. I had assumed it had been a couple of days.
Yep, Heard that line; this was my thought too. They needed to account for the drive time.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by robojerk View Post
Nope. If you're job is to be an assassin for the CIA, how in what way is it acceptable to not do the job. Him not doing the task he was given to do is foolish.
The point was that Estes had no operational control over Quinn, and the whole thing was entirely off the books. Quinn was and is Dar Adul's guy. Presumably Estes asked Dar Adul for a favor, and Dar Adul lent him Quinn. Who knows - maybe Quinn talked to Dar Adul and Dar Adul told him that killing Brody was no longer an imperative. We didn't see that happen, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. But you seem to assume that just because Estes still wanted him to take out Brody that Quinn was obligated to do so. That is not the case.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:00 PM   #59
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If you're job is to be an assassin for the CIA, how in what way is it acceptable to not do the job.
How? It was an unlawful order. He had a duty not to obey it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:01 PM   #60
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How? It was an illegal order.
Also, does the CIA even have jurisdiction to do that in the US?
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