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Old 12-13-2012, 04:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jamesjones_det View Post
This is one ignorant ass response. For one sports are a great reason to watch something live along with things live centric (the weather channel for one). To add to that why shouldn't TiVo support both live and record steaming? Nothing says you have to waste a tuner when you aren't live streaming.

Just because you don't do or like something something one way doesn't mean you are right. Stop being so ignorant and think for one minute.
Sports is the last thing I want to watch live. Way too many commercials. It's much better when you shift sports 1 to 1.5 hours after the start so the commmercials can be easily skipped.

Now the weather is something I watch live, but it's a PITA to watch sports live because of all the commercials.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #32
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Sports is the last thing I want to watch live. Way too many commercials. It's much better when you shift sports 1 to 1.5 hours after the start so the commmercials can be easily skipped.

Now the weather is something I watch live, but it's a PITA to watch sports live because of all the commercials.
Sports events have so many commercials because most people prefer to watch sports live...and by 'most people' I mean, let's face it, practically everybody. They don't show commercials in lieu of action on the field and even if they did you still wouldn't be able to watch it.

Watching recorded sports and fast forwarding them is just...perverse. Why not just find out the result on your phone and save yourself even more time by not bothering to watch them at all? Come on, you don't actually like sports do you?

How about...set up your IOS devices to stream multiple live sports events via TiVo Stream and have them set up on your coffee table. Adverts and everything. That would probably be your vision of Hell.

The arguments over live TV on TiVo in this thread are so asinine they can only be treated as comedy. The one butt hurt troglodyte who seems to be begging for acknowledgement about never, ever watching live TV is the epitome of a tivocommunity bitch.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:43 PM   #33
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Watching recorded sports and fast forwarding them is just...perverse. Why not just find out the result on your phone and save yourself even more time by not bothering to watch them at all? Come on, you don't actually like sports do you?
By that logic watching any live event recorded is "perverse". You could say the same thing about American Idol or the series finale of Survivor, yet many, many people watch those recorded.

Also if you simply time shift sports by an hour or so you will typically catch up to live before the end of the game, so you don't actually spoil the results you just speed up the amount of time it takes to get to the conclusion. If you feel it's "cheating" not watching every play as it happens in real life then that's a personal thing. But it's really no more effective then wearing your lucky jersey or not changing your socks at effecting the outcome of the game.

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Old 12-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #34
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Timeshifting sports is one of the best ways to minimize couch time and maximize time actually doing things. Each their own, but spending 1 hr vs 3+ hrs getting through a NFL commercialfest is agony.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:55 PM   #35
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By that logic watching any live event recorded is "perverse". You could say the same thing about American Idol or the series finale of Survivor, yet many, many people watch those recorded.

Dan
Watching sports live is not the same as watching American Idol (which isn't even a live show is it? Maybe the final episode is live, I don't know or even care).

I do think watching recorded versions of live shows is weird. What's the point of it being live one would wonder?

Last edited by button1066 : 12-13-2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Too long
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:58 PM   #36
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Timeshifting sports is one of the best ways to minimize couch time and maximize time actually doing things. Each their own, but spending 1 hr vs 3+ hrs getting through a NFL commercialfest is agony.
One man's agony is another man's perfect Sunday afternoon. I am a season ticket holder to my local NFL team and can confirm that even in the stadium you will be subjected to advertisements ad nauseum.

It's sport. People like it. It's not that big of a deal.

Another argument waiting to happen: I like watching live news. A lot. The horror! I could be doing so many more interesting things...
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:16 PM   #37
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Watching recorded sports and fast forwarding them is just...perverse. Why not just find out the result on your phone and save yourself even more time by not bothering to watch them at all? Come on, you don't actually like sports do you?
Most of the time, I don't care what the result is. I'm only interested in the action.
In my view, watching sports live and having to sit through commercials is just...perverse. We're only talking about a 'delayed viewing' here, not recording and watching the next day.

Take football. On Sunday, I start recording both early games (OTA only here) and do something else for an hour. Then I start watching game #1. When I catch up to live TV, I switch to game #2. Catch up there, I switch back to game #1, etc., etc.

So, it turns out that I can watch both games almost in the same amount of time it would take for me to watch one game live.

By this time, games #3 & #4 have started recording, and the process is repeated.

Yeah, I must not like sports that much.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:26 PM   #38
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Most of the time, I don't care what the result is. I'm only interested in the action.
In my view, watching sports live and having to sit through commercials is just...perverse. We're only talking about a 'delayed viewing' here, not recording and watching the next day.

Take football. On Sunday, I start recording both early games (OTA only here) and do something else for an hour. Then I start watching game #1. When I catch up to live TV, I switch to game #2. Catch up there, I switch back to game #1, etc., etc.

So, it turns out that I can watch both games almost in the same amount of time it would take for me to watch one game live.

By this time, games #3 & #4 have started recording, and the process is repeated.

Yeah, I must not like sports that much.
That would work I guess. Just stay off the Internet while you're watching the games. The problem is that sports is played in real time. It loses a lot when fast forwarded and instead might as well be edited highlights. My opinion. I like the tension of a game and the slow progress through all quarters.

Either way it does not seem to be a reason for people to write nasty comments at each other just based on their preferred viewing habits. Not that you have done this but others earlier in the thread certainly have.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:11 PM   #39
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It loses a lot when fast forwarded and instead might as well be edited highlights. My opinion. I like the tension of a game and the slow progress through all quarters.
You're not supposed to FF the game footage, only the commercials. You FF the game footage only if you care about the result.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:49 PM   #40
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Sports is the last thing I want to watch live. Way too many commercials. It's much better when you shift sports 1 to 1.5 hours after the start so the commmercials can be easily skipped.

Now the weather is something I watch live, but it's a PITA to watch sports live because of all the commercials.
That's funny, because one of the Engadget HD guys, who seems to hate commercials ALMOST as much as I do, can't watch sports delayed enough to skip the commercials.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:25 AM   #41
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By that logic watching any live event recorded is "perverse". You could say the same thing about American Idol or the series finale of Survivor, yet many, many people watch those recorded.

Also if you simply time shift sports by an hour or so you will typically catch up to live before the end of the game, so you don't actually spoil the results you just speed up the amount of time it takes to get to the conclusion. If you feel it's "cheating" not watching every play as it happens in real life then that's a personal thing. But it's really no more effective then wearing your lucky jersey or not changing your socks at effecting the outcome of the game.

Dan
+1. I typically don't start watching a football game until it's been on for at least 45 minutes to an hour. By the time it gets to the last two minutes of the game I've caught up to real time and watch the finale of the game live. If I catch up to real time too soon I'll usually pause playback and watch something else I previously recorded for about 20 minutes of so until I've built up enough of a delay to be able to skip past all the commercials.
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:51 AM   #42
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+2. I watch almost nothing live, other than background noise like news and weather. Starting an NFL game or NASCAR race an hour behind live is great.
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:56 AM   #43
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+1. I typically don't start watching a football game until it's been on for at least 45 minutes to an hour. By the time it gets to the last two minutes of the game I've caught up to real time and watch the finale of the game live. If I catch up to real time too soon I'll usually pause playback and watch something else I previously recorded for about 20 minutes of so until I've built up enough of a delay to be able to skip past all the commercials.
IMHO, only way to watch NFL football. My brother and I get together every weekend to watch our local team, and we follow this process exactly. We put phones and tablets away, and as far as we are concerned, the game is "live".
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:20 PM   #44
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Do you folks consider buffered live to be live?

I personally consider any non-recorded (not saved to the NP list) to be live.

I watch a lot of buffered live shows. I surf, find something of interest, pause, take care of some other items around or maybe swap tuners to surf the other tuner, then return to watch.

I dual-tuner surf a lot.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:36 PM   #45
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Do you folks consider buffered live to be live?

I personally consider any non-recorded (not saved to the NP list) to be live.

I watch a lot of buffered live shows. I surf, find something of interest, pause, take care of some other items around or maybe swap tuners to surf the other tuner, then return to watch.

I dual-tuner surf a lot.
I consider it live. Any show I could catch up to the end of the buffer is live to me.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:23 PM   #46
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Sports events have so many commercials because most people prefer to watch sports live...and by 'most people' I mean, let's face it, practically everybody.
This is simply false. Most women are not terribly interested in sports and a significant number of men are not.

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They don't show commercials in lieu of action on the field and even if they did you still wouldn't be able to watch it.
Your point here eludes me entirely. Are you saying watching TV with commercials is preferable to sitting in the stadium? If not then you have just countered your own argument.

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Watching recorded sports and fast forwarding them is just...perverse. Why not just find out the result on your phone and save yourself even more time by not bothering to watch them at all?
That would be my question, although I would not use my phone to that purpose. I use my phone to make and receive phone calls, when I must. I avoid it as much as possible. I do not use it for any other purpose.

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Come on, you don't actually like sports do you?
No. They are boring. That is irrelevant, however. They are certainly not made less boring by being heavily studded with commercials that force everyone, including those who have no interest in them, to pay for them.

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How about...set up your IOS devices to stream multiple live sports events via TiVo Stream and have them set up on your coffee table. Adverts and everything. That would probably be your vision of Hell.
Owning an IOS device would be my version of Hell, or at least the road to it, so I suppose your statement could be taken to be true in my case.

At work, they are forcing us to turn in our old phones and get Android phones. I am not happy about it, although I admit I really hate the current phone.

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The arguments over live TV on TiVo in this thread are so asinine they can only be treated as comedy. The one butt hurt troglodyte who seems to be begging for acknowledgement about never, ever watching live TV is the epitome of a tivocommunity bitch.
I suppose you mean me, although I am not alone in realizing watching live TV is a total waste of time. I could not possibly care less what you think of me, but I am compelled to point out that rather than provide a well reasoned argument supported by facts, you resort to an ad hominem attack.

Somehow I am not surprised.

Last edited by lrhorer : 12-15-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:27 PM   #47
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I do think watching recorded versions of live shows is weird. What's the point of it being live one would wonder?
The answer is it makes billions of dollars for Madison Avenue executives, manufacturers who sell massive numbers of things to people who do not need them, team owners, and team members. Other than that, there isn't any.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:40 PM   #48
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Do you folks consider buffered live to be live?
It's a gray area. Since I am rarely able to watch anything much less than 2 or 3 days after it is recorded, the question is really moot for me.

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I personally consider any non-recorded (not saved to the NP list) to be live.
Nielsen, ad agencies, and the networks would most definitely disagree with you. To them, the only purpose of TV is broadcasting the commercials. Of course, one may define anything any way one likes. All definitions are arbitrary. Yours, however, glosses over what many of us consider to be a very important aspect of owning a DVR: the ability to control the content, both in quality as well as in time.

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I dual-tuner surf a lot.
It is entirely up to you, of course, but by definition the content already recorded on the TiVo is of much higher quality than the live offerings. One is able to watch much more TV of a much higher quality in the same amount of time if one lets the TiVo record everything that might be interesting (in which case the tuners will again by definition be busy and unavailable for surfing whenever there is anything interesting on), and then selects from the list of high quality videos, rather than wading through a ton of garbage.

I could easily spend hours looking for more interesting content to what the TiVos are already recording, but the odds of my actually finding it are very low. The odds of my finding it right at the very moment when it starts so that I have not missed the (often vital) first few minutes of the show are virtually zero.

Last edited by lrhorer : 12-15-2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:56 PM   #49
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Either way it does not seem to be a reason for people to write nasty comments at each other just based on their preferred viewing habits.
I see. What, then, was your reason for writing this:

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The one butt hurt troglodyte who seems to be begging for acknowledgement about never, ever watching live TV is the epitome of a tivocommunity bitch.
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Not that you have done this but others earlier in the thread certainly have.
Yes, they surely have, haven't they? Or is it somehow different when you do it? Only you and one other individual in this thread resorted to name calling, and both of you are on the same side of the issue.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:15 PM   #50
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It is entirely up to you, of course, but by definition the content already recorded on the TiVo is of much higher quality than the live offerings.
Uh, which definition are you using?? I prefer to think that I can determine what I enjoy a touch better than the wonks who wrote the TiVo suggestion algorithm. The fact that you think otherwise is a bit insulting.

Also, half the crap on my TiVo is for my wife which is absolutely not of high quality to me.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:19 PM   #51
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Nielsen, ad agencies, and the networks would most definitely disagree with you.
Well, when they start participating in these forums maybe we should adjust our terms. I submit that many people here consider watching a buffered show one minute, five minutes or maybe 10 minutes behind to be 'live' regardless of your expert opinion otherwise.

I just floated a clarifying question out there and definitely qualified my statements with 'to me.'
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:41 AM   #52
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Uh, which definition are you using??
Well, unless you are deliberately recording things you do not like on the TiVo, then by definition the things on the TiVo are what you like. Per your statements below, discount the stuff your wife has recorded.

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I prefer to think
No, you prefer to be prejudiced. It is a simple fact humans do poorly and computers do extremely well sifting through tens of thousands of items to find ones matching particular criteria. They do so extremely quickly and essentially without errors. They also follow directions to the letter, every time. There are many, many things we humans do easily and accurately that even the most powerful computers on Earth struggle to do at all. Searching through mountains of text for matching keywords is not one of them.

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that I can determine what I enjoy a touch better than the wonks who wrote the TiVo suggestion algorithm.
You are simply wrong. First of all, I never mentioned anything about Suggestions, and although Suggestions make the issue even more lopsided on the side of the TiVo, the statements apply perfectly well even with Suggestions turned off. Secondly, it is not the people who wrote the algorithms that determine what the TiVo will record. It is YOU who do so. You tell the TiVo what you like. It remembers and goes off searching for the the things you have told it to go find. This is true whether it is Suggestions, Wishlists, Season Passes, or manual recordings for that matter.

It is just not humanly practical, and in fact not humanly possible on an ongoing basis, to accurately sift through upwards of 3000 programs a day, every day, 24 x 365. In less time than it takes you to sort through a single hour's worth of programming (perhaps 400 - 500 programs), the TiVo will search through 12 whole days worth of programming (about 40,000 shows), typically without missing a single hit, as long as the data from Tribune Media is correct. If you think you can search through 40,000 shows in the current schedule (let alone the million or so broadcast every year) without quite a few errors, then you are deluding yourself. Highly trained professional airline pilots frequently cannot go through a relatively short checklist (50 items or less) without making an error, and their lives and those of their passengers literally depend upon it.

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The fact that you think otherwise is a bit insulting.
The fact I know otherwise is not a subjective matter at all. You can choose to be insulted, frightened, or just plain upset if you like, but the fact is no human being can do this sort of thing better than a computer, any more than a human can compute the value of pi to a million digits better than a computer. It was a difficult task to manage, but the computer Watson did beat the two highest ranking Jeopardy champions of all time. Of course, the TiVo does not have anything even remotely like the computing power Watson does, but then the task at hand for the Tivo is far, far simpler, and the TiVo does not have an urgent deadline of only a few seconds to come up with its answers. Being insulted by the notion a computer can do something better than you will not change the fact.

You are allowing yourself to be ruled by an emotional knee-jerk response, rather than taking the time to fully comprehend the situation. Perhaps you will be tempted to be insulted by this statement, as well, but the very fact you use the term "insulted" eloquently proves my point. This is entirely about cold, hard mathematics, not your emotions.

Can you more accurately determine if a single given program in the schedule is interesting than the TiVo can? Presumably so. Can you on average more accurately determine which of a very limited set of programs is more interesting? Perhaps, but probably not. Can you more accurately determine which programs from the entire list of programs are likely to be more interesting on an ongoing basis? Surely not. Will it save you anything in time and effort to try or result in fewer missed programs? No way in Hell.

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Also, half the crap on my TiVo is for my wife which is absolutely not of high quality to me.
That is a completely different matter, but even if only 50% (or heck, even 10%, or 5%) of the content on the TiVo is interesting to you, the point is still valid. Presumably you won't cancel a recording of your wife's while it is underway in order to grab control of a tuner, but whether it is recording your wife's stuff, or your stuff, or both, the TiVo can and will ensure with reasonably high (not perfect) accuracy when some things one or both of you like are being broadcast and record them, if you let it. Will some things slip by? Of course, but surely far fewer than will do so if you try to manually record things.

Put it this way. If your TiVo is properly configured for both your and your wife's needs, then at any given moment, the odds are high that any program of interest will be selected for recording, until such time as all the tuners are busy. This directly implies that if nothing is being recorded on one or more tuners, then either there is nothing at least as interesting as many things already recorded on the TiVo, or else the TiVo has missed one (or two, or however many tuners there are free). On a daily basis, the odds of the latter being the case are very low; low enough that worrying about it and obsessively trying to search for missed content is going to take a lot of time away from watching the good stuff, and only very, very rarely result in finding a program that would otherwise have been missed.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:56 AM   #53
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I submit that many people here consider watching a buffered show one minute, five minutes or maybe 10 minutes behind to be 'live' regardless of your expert opinion otherwise.
Don't be silly. A definition is never a matter of opinion. It is a matter of convention. They are also completely unimportant except as a means of qualifying a debating position or allowing easy symbolic manipulations. Any two or more debaters must agree upon a uniform set of definitions to make an informative debate possible, and any two or more philosophers must similarly agree upon the definitions to make mathematical or logical proofs legible, but otherwise all definitions are meaningless.

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I just floated a clarifying question out there and definitely qualified my statements with 'to me.'
Definitions are never a personal matter, unless one wishes to indulge in mental masturbation. They are always a matter of organized convention adhered to by all local participants. The statement, "To me xxxx is defined as yyyy" is completely meaningless. More importantly, whether we agree to define buffered video as recorded or not in no way changes the use to which the DVR is put when buffered video is being viewed, regardless of who is doing the viewing.

The factual point I was making, perfectly irrespective of what is defined as "live", was that the existence of the hard drive and the ability to delay and trick play video is a very distinct thing from a simple TV receiver with no storage capabilities. Whether one categorizes temporary ring buffered video differently from full blown recordings is not particularly important in the context of this discussion, but lumping buffered video together with unbuffered video, as I said, hides an important distinction.

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Old 12-16-2012, 02:34 AM   #54
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Most of the time, I don't care what the result is. I'm only interested in the action.
I think that is the most interesting perspective on watching sports I have ever seen. My hat is off to you.

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In my view, watching sports live and having to sit through commercials is just...perverse. We're only talking about a 'delayed viewing' here, not recording and watching the next day.
An hour, a day, a year, a decade. What difference does it make? Would it be any less thrilling to be able to watch the very first World Series game in 1903 if you could magically come up with a video of it than the first game of next year's series?
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:40 AM   #55
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You seem awfully caught up in very precise wording for me but not yourself. You told me that by definition all recordings are more important than live. You didn't mention that you meant except for what my wife recorded and except for suggestions. Maybe you also meant except for what I recorded but may not have time to watch now, or maybe what I recorded but not in the mood for now.

Your arrogance is one thing I do know to be true.

Maybe in your 100% black and white world you differentiate 10sec delay from 0 sec delay but I think that a poll of users hear would show you in a distinct minority. I have no doubt that it matters little to you though and are quite smug in your sense of being in the 1% subset of those who are 'correct.'

Have a good day.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by button1066 View Post
Sports events have so many commercials because most people prefer to watch sports live...and by 'most people' I mean, let's face it, practically everybody. They don't show commercials in lieu of action on the field and even if they did you still wouldn't be able to watch it.

Watching recorded sports and fast forwarding them is just...perverse. Why not just find out the result on your phone and save yourself even more time by not bothering to watch them at all? Come on, you don't actually like sports do you?

How about...set up your IOS devices to stream multiple live sports events via TiVo Stream and have them set up on your coffee table. Adverts and everything. That would probably be your vision of Hell.

The arguments over live TV on TiVo in this thread are so asinine they can only be treated as comedy. The one butt hurt troglodyte who seems to be begging for acknowledgement about never, ever watching live TV is the epitome of a tivocommunity bitch.
I don't watch as much sports as most people I know but I do watch. Most of those people watch hours and hours each week. ANd they are almost always time shifting their sports watching. It's much easier for them since they don't waste time needlessly watching commercials, plus they have children which also necessitates using a DVR.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by lrhorer View Post
An hour, a day, a year, a decade. What difference does it make? Would it be any less thrilling to be able to watch the very first World Series game in 1903 if you could magically come up with a video of it than the first game of next year's series?
Every argument you make seems more crazy than the former. Of course it matters. Watching a game without commercials (by letting the buffer fill) while not yet knowing the outcome of the game is HUGE!

How can you not see that?

Watching a mid-season last year game that I already know the outcome of versus a game today that I don't know results of and will impact playoff results??

You honestly believe these are equal?
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:34 AM   #58
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Live for me is basically within a few seconds of broadcast. Anything else is not live. But by others definition then I might be watching football live since the game is still on while I'm watching what is being recorded.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Live for me is basically within a few seconds of broadcast.
According to lrhorer, you are using arbitrary and silly definitions which have no place in any discussion. It is either zero seconds delayed or not. "Within a few seconds" is no definition and couching it with "for me" is just nonsense.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:13 PM   #60
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Well if you want to get nit-picky, if you watch ANYTHING through a Tivo, you are NOT watching "live" TV.
You are watching a TV signal that has been written to and then retrieved from a hard drive.
Even though the delay is only a couple of seconds, by definition it is NOT "live" TV.


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