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Old 11-30-2012, 04:50 PM   #31
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Disagree.

It was not until suddenly in the final season that they threw all those constraints overboard. Worst yet in a way that made years of the story irrelevant.

And when the LOST folks were interviewed they until the last season insisted that there was a coherent speculative science storyline and the journey would be relevant. They also stuck to the Sci-Fi grounded in speculative reality approach until the last season. They let their hubris fool them into thinking it was creativity.

The ending was FAR from "exactly what the audience wanted".
Really? So when we saw the smoke monster for the first time in S1, they had a way to explain that with science? So when they turned the donkey wheel in S4 and made the entire island vanish, they had a way to explain that with science? When they introduced Ajira Flight 316 in S5 and some of the characters just disappeared off the plane and ended up on the island, while others stayed on the plane and crashed on Hydra Island, they had a way to explain that with science? When the island became "unstuck in time" and the characters were jumping around to different times, they had a way to explain that with science?

All of that stuff was going to be explained with plausible science until they just threw that out the window in S6? Really?
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:56 PM   #32
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I remember hearing early on it wasn't purgatory. So, it kind of seemed like purgatory, no?

And it's not that some things were left unexplained, it was almost everything. Those numbers still piss me off. I loved this show until the last season.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:06 PM   #33
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Really? So when we saw the smoke monster for the first time in S1, they had a way to explain that with science? So when they turned the donkey wheel in S4 and made the entire island vanish, they had a way to explain that with science? When they introduced Ajira Flight 316 in S5 and some of the characters just disappeared off the plane and ended up on the island, while others stayed on the plane and crashed on Hydra Island, they had a way to explain that with science? When the island became "unstuck in time" and the characters were jumping around to different times, they had a way to explain that with science?

All of that stuff was going to be explained with plausible science until they just threw that out the window in S6? Really?

Well, I think if you qualify "science" as fringe science / science fiction in the Abramsesque sense, sure. If you followed the Rambaldi storylines in "Alias".. or more recently, the "Fringe", or the short-lived "Alcatraz", or some Michael Crichton novels like "Prey" that they mention in the creation of "Lost", you'd see where they were coming from. Nanotechnology, time travel, teleportation, parallel universes, quantum mechanics, genetic engineering, all kinds of good stuff we were looking forward to the resolutions on.

For the things you mentioned, we were all pretty sure the smoke monster was comprised of nanobots, the donkey wheel was the mechanism to teleport the island, etc. Because of some of the Egyptian influences, there were theories that the island was a ship or some other remains of the same alien race that had visited Earth previously in Egypt.


Then along come Jacob and the Man in Black and it gets all yucky and spiritual.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:28 PM   #34
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And it's not that some things were left unexplained, it was almost everything. Those numbers still piss me off.
The numbers WERE explained through the game's website/reality game and video. For all the things that were left out, this one was explained via the show's mythology.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:28 PM   #35
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The numbers WERE explained through the game's website/reality game and video. For all the things that were left out, this one was explained via the show's mythology.
That's another thing I really associate (and appreciate) with J.J. Abrams - the online lore half of his shows. The Alias web - there was a Credit Dauphine site which had many easter eggs and any sites they mentioned on the show (conspiracychick.com anyone?) they had registered and populated with rabbit trails all over the net which explored more of the story.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:35 PM   #36
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Really? So when we saw the smoke monster for the first time in S1, they had a way to explain that with science? So when they turned the donkey wheel in S4 and made the entire island vanish, they had a way to explain that with science? When they introduced Ajira Flight 316 in S5 and some of the characters just disappeared off the plane and ended up on the island, while others stayed on the plane and crashed on Hydra Island, they had a way to explain that with science? When the island became "unstuck in time" and the characters were jumping around to different times, they had a way to explain that with science?

All of that stuff was going to be explained with plausible science until they just threw that out the window in S6? Really?
Brief examples, if you read the LOST threads here on TiVo, many speculated that the Smoke Monster was akin to Michael Crichton's "Prey" a nano swarm, a Sci-Fi concept.

Time travel, etc. is an old Sc-Fi concept.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:22 PM   #37
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The numbers WERE explained through the game's website/reality game and video. For all the things that were left out, this one was explained via the show's mythology.
I had no idea. Would you mind recapping it here?

Thank you.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:14 PM   #38
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I remember hearing early on it wasn't purgatory. So, it kind of seemed like purgatory, no?
No, absolutely not. "It" did not seem like purgatory at all. The primary story of the show including every single thing except the sideways flash parts of the final season was not purgatory.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:29 PM   #39
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I loved Lost. Didn't mind the last season or the ending at all (no, it didn't turn out to be nanobots and ancient aliens tech). Still miss it. Have rewatched it twice already and still enjoyed it immensely. My bigger issues were that they introduced way too many unnecessary characters. Oh, that, and what's-her-name's horrible American accent when speaking Latin.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:01 PM   #40
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Well, I think if you qualify "science" as fringe science / science fiction in the Abramsesque sense, sure. If you followed the Rambaldi storylines in "Alias".. or more recently, the "Fringe", or the short-lived "Alcatraz", or some Michael Crichton novels like "Prey" that they mention in the creation of "Lost", you'd see where they were coming from. Nanotechnology, time travel, teleportation, parallel universes, quantum mechanics, genetic engineering, all kinds of good stuff we were looking forward to the resolutions on.

For the things you mentioned, we were all pretty sure the smoke monster was comprised of nanobots, the donkey wheel was the mechanism to teleport the island, etc. Because of some of the Egyptian influences, there were theories that the island was a ship or some other remains of the same alien race that had visited Earth previously in Egypt.


Then along come Jacob and the Man in Black and it gets all yucky and spiritual.
Quote:
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Brief examples, if you read the LOST threads here on TiVo, many speculated that the Smoke Monster was akin to Michael Crichton's "Prey" a nano swarm, a Sci-Fi concept.

Time travel, etc. is an old Sc-Fi concept.
So you guys are saying that just because a concept has been used in "science-fiction," it's somehow legitimate science and that makes it OK? Frankly, I don't see any difference between time travel, nanobots, and magic. None of them are currently posible in our world, so they're all fiction. Just because one has a theoretical explanation doesn't make it more realistic.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:46 PM   #41
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Wow, the book is $6.99 Kindle, $16.99 paperback.. Big difference!
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:21 AM   #42
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So you guys are saying that just because a concept has been used in "science-fiction," it's somehow legitimate science and that makes it OK? Frankly, I don't see any difference between time travel, nanobots, and magic. None of them are currently posible in our world, so they're all fiction. Just because one has a theoretical explanation doesn't make it more realistic.
While any sufficiently advanced technology could be indistinguishable from "magic", we'll have to disagree on the turn the show took. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. To simply write it off as mystical, spritual, and unexplainable was a bit of a letdown for sci-fi nerds like me. I definitely enjoyed the ride, though.
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Old 12-01-2012, 06:32 AM   #43
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So you guys are saying that just because a concept has been used in "science-fiction," it's somehow legitimate science and that makes it OK? Frankly, I don't see any difference between time travel, nanobots, and magic. None of them are currently posible in our world, so they're all fiction. Just because one has a theoretical explanation doesn't make it more realistic.
One last time. The show was conceived as Sci-Fi, somewaht along the lines of stuff Crichton used to write. "Hard" SF is based on science and then extrapolates sideways. You actually might live long enough to see nanobots. Or they may never be feasible; that's what SF is about,

Why not unicorns and faeries and pixie dust per your thinking?
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:48 AM   #44
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No, absolutely not. "It" did not seem like purgatory at all. The primary story of the show including every single thing except the sideways flash parts of the final season was not purgatory.
Well, I think that's exactly what many of us are saying. Except for the last season it was a great show. Then it went to purgatory via a Deus ex Machina.

It left me feeling like X files. Great show, very disappointing ending. Hopefully they won't have a Lost movie to have an even worse ending. But I enjoyed it until I didn't. The reason Lost gets special anger is because I was led to believe that it was building to an incredible "reveal." not, as has been amusingly pointed out, pixie dust.
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:22 AM   #45
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One last time. The show was conceived as Sci-Fi, somewaht along the lines of stuff Crichton used to write. "Hard" SF is based on science and then extrapolates sideways. You actually might live long enough to see nanobots. Or they may never be feasible; that's what SF is about,

Why not unicorns and faeries and pixie dust per your thinking?
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Who?
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:41 AM   #46
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Well, I think that's exactly what many of us are saying. Except for the last season it was a great show. Then it went to purgatory via a Deus ex Machina.

It left me feeling like X files. Great show, very disappointing ending. Hopefully they won't have a Lost movie to have an even worse ending. But I enjoyed it until I didn't. The reason Lost gets special anger is because I was led to believe that it was building to an incredible "reveal." not, as has been amusingly pointed out, pixie dust.

Still don't get the hate for the ending. Makes me shallow, I guess. ok. I can live with that.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:33 PM   #47
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One last time. The show was conceived as Sci-Fi, somewaht along the lines of stuff Crichton used to write. "Hard" SF is based on science and then extrapolates sideways. You actually might live long enough to see nanobots. Or they may never be feasible; that's what SF is about,

Why not unicorns and faeries and pixie dust per your thinking?
Are you Carlton Cruz?
As far as I'm concerned, time travel and teleportation and nanobots are no different than unicorns and faries and pixie dust from a plausibility standpoint. It's just that time travel and teleportation and nanobots are infinitely more interesting. But using any of them makes a story no longer grounded in our world and doesn't allow the show to be explained with science.

And by the way, it's "Cuse."
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:55 PM   #48
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Still don't get the hate for the ending. Makes me shallow, I guess. ok. I can live with that.
I agree with you. In my view, there were two endings. In the real world, the ending was Jack dying on the island. In the "purgatory" world, it was Jack finally realizing he was living in purgatory. That story would have had to start after he had died in the real world, but it was confusing to us because we were watching both stories side-by-side.

I rather enjoyed both endings. I thought it was especially cool that they ended with Jack's eyes closing in death, the opposite of starting with Jack's eyes opening on the island. Don't recall anybody on TCF speculating on that.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:06 PM   #49
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I rather enjoyed both endings. I thought it was especially cool that they ended with Jack's eyes closing in death, the opposite of starting with Jack's eyes opening on the island. Don't recall anybody on TCF speculating on that.
The sad thing is, that's what Lindelof meant all those years when he said they knew the ending when they wrote the beginning. That, and nothing else...but his insistence that they "knew the ending" led many of us to believe that he meant something more substantive than just the framing of the last shot.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:11 AM   #50
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As far as I'm concerned, time travel and teleportation and nanobots are no different than unicorns and faries and pixie dust from a plausibility standpoint.
As a man of science (heh), I have to point out that there is actual research and results around teleportation and nanotechnology while "unicorns and fairies" provide no testable hypotheses.

I didn't hate the ending as many did. I was just a bit disappointed that it went the way it did with sideways flash world, most of the first season characters hanging out in some non-denomination church (what happened to Michael and Walt?), and other stuff I can't recall because I haven't seen it since original air date. I do recall thinking I would rather have seen the curtains pulled back to reveal the overarching electromagnetic and other experiments from Egyptian times to present and whether they were Earth-based or other-worldly in nature.

The way it wrapped with Sheppard explaining "you all created this place together" and the afterlifey stuff, I think appealed to a certain demographic I am not a part of. I enjoyed the show as a whole and didn't hate the finale. It just wasn't for me.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:23 AM   #51
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The way it wrapped with Sheppard explaining "you all created this place together" and the afterlifey stuff, I think appealed to a certain demographic I am not a part of.
And the reason I hated the ending (maybe too strong a word, but maybe not) is that for years the show seemed to be headed towards something completely different, that would appeal directly to MY demographic and not all those silly fuzzy-minded new-agers who loved the ending.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:46 AM   #52
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And the reason I hated the ending (maybe too strong a word, but maybe not) is that for years the show seemed to be headed towards something completely different, that would appeal directly to MY demographic and not all those silly fuzzy-minded new-agers who loved the ending.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...
So I'm a fuzzy-minded new-ager. Did not know that before, but I guess you learn something new every day.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:57 AM   #53
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So I'm a fuzzy-minded new-ager. Did not know that before, but I guess you learn something new every day.


Hopefully, it will be clear that I'm poking fun more at the debate itself than the actual fuzzy-minded new-agers or rigid science-minded logical pedants.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:04 AM   #54
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I had no idea. Would you mind recapping it here?

Thank you.
the numbers


And more info here:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Valenzetti_Equation
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:25 PM   #55
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While any sufficiently advanced technology could be indistinguishable from "magic", we'll have to disagree on the turn the show took. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. To simply write it off as mystical, spritual, and unexplainable was a bit of a letdown for sci-fi nerds like me. I definitely enjoyed the ride, though.
That's actually the perfect description for this show...The ride!! To me Lost was like taking a summer adventure cross country from say NY to California (which I did as a kid). You stop at all these cool places along the way, maybe some unusual things happen that you didn't expect and were pleasantly surprised about. Then you finally get to California, and it's congested and filled with smog and are totally disappointed. Thus, the trip there was a lot better than the ultimate destination.

I'm not at all a sci-fi geek, and honestly, it wasn't that they moved from a story based on science to a story based on faith (and we were told a number of times that THAT was part of the story). For me it was that they took such a complete turn away from the whole plot line for five seasons and made the characters we followed for five seasons and the stories we followed for five seasons and made them irrelevant and that all we have been watching was a fight between two brothers. It was COMPLETELY different than what we watched for five seasons. The whole battle between the Losties and The Others, the hatch, Dharma, all of it really was a back story to get to two brothers fighting?
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:59 PM   #56
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The whole battle between the Losties and The Others, the hatch, Dharma, all of it really was a back story to get to two brothers fighting?
Well, yes, according to the excerpt from the Sepinwall book.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:51 AM   #57
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I thought I had read on here in the Lost threads that the producers were saying they had a plan all along. But according the article they really didn't. They had ideas but weren't sure where it was going. And they didn't have the mythology of the island planned out until S2. When they were already establishing mysteries in S1.

I'm with some other posters on here, I want to go back and watch from the beginning, but I know I'll be disappointed at the end so I never do.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:02 AM   #58
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I thought I had read on here in the Lost threads that the producers were saying they had a plan all along. But according the article they really didn't.
They claimed all along that they had a plan. I can't remember the exact wording Lindelof used, but it was along the lines of "We knew the ending when we wrote the first word."

After the show ended, he revealed that all he meant by that was they had the image of Jack's eyes opening & closing in mind.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:12 PM   #59
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Braun agreed, so long as Abrams promised to keep things in the realm of "scientific fact" and have an explanation for everything.
BWA-HA-HA-Ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

(I think it was mid second season that I decided to stop even remotely trying to figure out the "mystery of the island" and just watch the episodes and enjoy. I liked the whole series and I never went nanners like so many other Lost fans.)
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