TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-27-2012, 07:18 AM   #1
BigJimOutlaw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,603
Tivo petitions FCC for Clarification or Waiver

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017097789

I saw the words "Tivo" and "Waiver" and got excited for a split second, as the last time those words were put together, we got the Elite. But this isn't that interesting.

The Reader's Digest Version:

MSO-provided HD cable boxes are mandated to comply with an "industry standard that provides a/v communications including service discovery, video transport, and remote control command pass-through standards for home networking" by December 1st.

Tivo's saying, "IP, WiFi and ethernet are the dominant physical standards, but there are lots of protocols in existence (DLNA,etc). Please clarify what's expected, and give us a year to fall into compliance so that we and our MSO partners aren't boned."
BigJimOutlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 08:26 AM   #2
nrc
Cracker Soul
 
nrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Living in a four letter world.
Posts: 2,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017097789
Tivo's saying, "IP, WiFi and ethernet are the dominant physical standards, but there are lots of protocols in existence (DLNA,etc). Please clarify what's expected, and give us a year to fall into compliance so that we and our MSO partners aren't boned."
I mentioned this in another thread so I'll just repeat the comment here.

Seems like the problem is that the industry hasn't made public any "open industry standard" and without access to such a standard TiVo can't comply with it. It's not clear whether the cable MSOs and their partners are working on such a thing and plan to just spring it on the public when the time comes or whether they were just going to ignore the requirement and then complain that no standard was set if anyone complains when they don't comply.

Either way, it's smart for TiVo to force the issue and make sure they're covered. As someone else mentioned, it also puts TiVo in a good position to propose a standard if the cable industry was just going to ignore it and plead ignorance when the deadline passed.
__________________

Not entirely square
nrc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 12:16 PM   #3
berkshires
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 440
By 'Service discovery' is it meant SDV and VOD could be built into the TiVo box?
berkshires is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 02:36 PM   #4
dlfl
Cranky old novice
 
dlfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Near Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 5,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkshires View Post
By 'Service discovery' is it meant SDV and VOD could be built into the TiVo box?
My guess is it means providing a system that allows the set top box to "discover" what channels are available to tune, presumably not all possible channels but those that are authorized as part of the service.
__________________

"It must be swell to be so perfect and odor-free" -- Del Griffith


VideoReDo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

pyTivo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dlfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #5
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,541
I wish TiVo would push on NCTA's comments regarding the IP solution for encrypting the basic tier. If they can offer a IP solution for basic tier, why not every tier?
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 09:19 PM   #6
mattack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: sunnyvale
Posts: 17,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017097789

I saw the words "Tivo" and "Waiver" and got excited for a split second, as the last time those words were put together, we got the Elite. But this isn't that interesting.

The Reader's Digest Version:

MSO-provided HD cable boxes are mandated to comply with an "industry standard that provides a/v communications including service discovery, video transport, and remote control command pass-through standards for home networking" by December 1st.

Tivo's saying, "IP, WiFi and ethernet are the dominant physical standards, but there are lots of protocols in existence (DLNA,etc). Please clarify what's expected, and give us a year to fall into compliance so that we and our MSO partners aren't boned."
Weird, because I think the Elite waiver was bad (removing analog tuners).

This sounds like Tivo is asking to be able to do anything the cable companies/boxes can do... which is the intention of the cable card mandate..
mattack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 01:05 AM   #7
nrc
Cracker Soul
 
nrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Living in a four letter world.
Posts: 2,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattack View Post
This sounds like Tivo is asking to be able to do anything the cable companies/boxes can do... which is the intention of the cable card mandate..
No, the rule only requires an "open industry standard that provides for audiovisual communications including service discovery, video transport, and remote control command pass-through standards for home networking."

TiVo has asked for clarification, but this is intended to replace the useless firewire port that was required on previous boxes. No doubt the MSOs would like to make this equally useless but TiVo is attempting to force the issue by asking for clarification.

Basically the intent is to have a protocol where you can say something like "tune to channel X and spit the video stream out as an H.264 stream."
__________________

Not entirely square

Last edited by nrc : 08-20-2012 at 02:31 AM. Reason: fix broken quote
nrc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 12:11 AM   #8
CoxInPHX
COX Communications
 
CoxInPHX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,390
FCC Media Bureau Seeks Comments on TiVo's HD Set-Top Waiver

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7022004790


http://www.multichannel.com/article/...Top_Waiver.php

The FCC's Media Bureau wants input on TiVo's request for a 12-month waiver of commission rules that will require cable operators to ensure HD set-tops "comply with an open industry standard" for home networking by Dec. 1, 2012.

Comments and oppositions are due 15 days after the request for comments is published in the Federal Register. The proceeding is Media Bureau docket no. 12-230.
__________________
Roamio Pro, XL4, Premiere 2TB-WD20EURS, & Mini, 20.4.2, w/ Cisco SDV TA, FW F.2001, Cisco CC FW PKEY1.5.3_F.p.1301

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

CoxInPHX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 06:13 AM   #9
slowbiscuit
FUBAR
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the ATL
Posts: 2,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
I wish TiVo would push on NCTA's comments regarding the IP solution for encrypting the basic tier. If they can offer a IP solution for basic tier, why not every tier?
Cable wants the CEA to use another one-off system called 'TV Everywhere', Samsung will support it I think.

The real answer was AllVid because it covered all the MVPDs including sat and U-Verse, but cable told the FCC to go pound sand and they did.
slowbiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:20 PM   #10
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,541
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017143898

It looks like it was granted, but also a delay for all cable companies. I haven't had a chance to read it yet.
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 07:31 PM   #11
BigJimOutlaw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,603
The tl:dr version is simple enough:

The FCC basically clarifies "an open industry standard" to mean any open industry standard protocol that meets the requirements set in the rules, and doesn't specify a specific industry standard to use. But they did say that the DLNA spec would work. Everybody has until June-September 2014 to comply. Overall this is fairly inconsequential.
BigJimOutlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #12
nrc
Cracker Soul
 
nrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Living in a four letter world.
Posts: 2,428
By failing to specify a single standard or even tightly control what qualifies as an open standard they've created something as useless at the original firewire requirement.
__________________

Not entirely square
nrc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 07:45 AM   #13
slowbiscuit
FUBAR
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the ATL
Posts: 2,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc View Post
By failing to specify a single standard or even tightly control what qualifies as an open standard they've created something as useless at the original firewire requirement.
And they keep kicking the can down the road - everyone knows that DLNA has mostly been a failure, but the FCC thinks it might eventually be the answer even though it's unwilling to mandate that a single open access IP protocol should be a standard.

In other words, Tivo is screwed - this waiver is another reflection of the FCC's failure to do anything about open IP access, just like with AllVid. Cable will just keep delaying and rolling their own 'standards' until everyone gives up, because the FCC doesn't care. And they really don't care about anyone using sat or telco.
slowbiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 07:59 AM   #14
moedaman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
In other words, Tivo is screwed -
Actually we, the consumer, are screwed. Tivo has been making deals with a lot of cable providers as well as Direct TV lately. If they end up making more money as a oem, they'll just say screw you to the general public and ota viewers.
moedaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 10:39 AM   #15
nrc
Cracker Soul
 
nrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Living in a four letter world.
Posts: 2,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
And they keep kicking the can down the road - everyone knows that DLNA has mostly been a failure, but the FCC thinks it might eventually be the answer even though it's unwilling to mandate that a single open access IP protocol should be a standard.
That's true. It's strange how the FCC's tone has changed from declaring CableCARD a failure and aggressively pushing for new regulations like Allvid to folding for every NCTA request and repeating all the same mistakes of the past. I'm guessing that the NCTA spread their PAC money around a bit more evenly this campaign cycle.
__________________

Not entirely square
nrc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 12:52 PM   #16
tvmaster2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 745
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
And they keep kicking the can down the road - everyone knows that DLNA has mostly been a failure, but the FCC thinks it might eventually be the answer even though it's unwilling to mandate that a single open access IP protocol should be a standard.

In other words, Tivo is screwed - this waiver is another reflection of the FCC's failure to do anything about open IP access, just like with AllVid. Cable will just keep delaying and rolling their own 'standards' until everyone gives up, because the FCC doesn't care. And they really don't care about anyone using sat or telco.
If the FCC "doesn't care", it's only because the public doesn't care. If you write to them, that's the only way to invoke change
tvmaster2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 06:23 AM   #17
slowbiscuit
FUBAR
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the ATL
Posts: 2,628
LOL, please. They care which company they regulate will give them the best deal to jump ship when their term is over. They sure as hell don't care about anything we petition them for.

FWIW I have filed a complaint with them about Comcast Cablecard billing practices, and got ignored.
slowbiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 08:04 AM   #18
bdraw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 456
Ever had a job where you were responsible for completing certain tasks, but didn't actually have the authority to complete those tasks? Yeah, that's the FCC's position. The Telecom ACT of '96 said they needed to do this, but then didn't give them the enforcement power to actually do it. Of course that doesn't mean the FCC is allowed to stop trying, but while they do care, there is only so much they can do. Congress needs to reform the law. You know, cause not much has change in the Telecom industry in the past 16 years.
__________________
How good can it be, if it isn't HD?
Ben Drawbaugh
Engadget HD
bdraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 10:22 AM   #19
shwru980r
Registered User
 
shwru980r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post
Ever had a job where you were responsible for completing certain tasks, but didn't actually have the authority to complete those tasks? Yeah, that's the FCC's position. The Telecom ACT of '96 said they needed to do this, but then didn't give them the enforcement power to actually do it. Of course that doesn't mean the FCC is allowed to stop trying, but while they do care, there is only so much they can do. Congress needs to reform the law. You know, cause not much has change in the Telecom industry in the past 16 years.
The FCC has the power not to grant waivers.

The FCC has the power to fine a cable company for every failed attempt to pair a cable card.

The FCC has the power to fine a company for every defective tuning adapter.

The FCC has the power to revoke the cable company's privilege to use cable cards and tuning adapters due to incompetence, and broadcast every channel without encryption.
__________________

Premiere-$99 Lifetime-OTA
HD-Lifetime-OTA
S3 OLED-Lifetime-OTA
shwru980r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 11:24 AM   #20
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by shwru980r View Post
The FCC has the power not to grant waivers.

The FCC has the power to fine a cable company for every failed attempt to pair a cable card.

The FCC has the power to fine a company for every defective tuning adapter.

The FCC has the power to revoke the cable company's privilege to use cable cards and tuning adapters due to incompetence, and broadcast every channel without encryption.
Even the majority of TCF users won't file complaints to the FCC when they have tuning adapter problems. I wouldn't expect your average user to do it either then.
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 11:24 AM   #21
slowbiscuit
FUBAR
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the ATL
Posts: 2,628
The FCC can do a lot more than they choose to do, but as I said when you have commish's leaving for lucrative jobs at the NCTA and Comcast it's clear that the revolving door is more important.

This should be no surprise to anyone that followed the Wall Street and SEC lack of enforcement issues that led to the crash (and that no one has gone to jail for it). The revolving door is even more wide open there.
slowbiscuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:55 PM   #22
bdraw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 456
The FCC does not have the power to force providers to offer VOD content without the cable companies controlling the user interface. The providers won't do it willingly and we don't want TiVo to just pass through the same UI the providers' stb has. We want it to match the TiVo UI like Comcast's does.

The FCC does not have the power to force cable companies to provide guide data to 3rd party hardware even though customers pay for it as part of their service. This is something that TiVo owners don't have to worry about, but it is something that keeps other CE companies from releasing hardware -- see Rovi's recent shutdown of TVGOS as a reason why.

Everything else the FCC has the power to do is moot when you consider these two big ones. On demand is increasingly becoming more and more popular, with just about everyone agreeing that the days when linear content rules, being numbered. Bottom line is you'd have to make a pretty unbelievably great DVR to get people to pay for it when it their provider will give them one for a small monthly fee that can deliver services that you have no choice but to pay for.
__________________
How good can it be, if it isn't HD?
Ben Drawbaugh
Engadget HD
bdraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #23
haplo888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017097789

I saw the words "Tivo" and "Waiver" and got excited for a split second, as the last time those words were put together, we got the Elite. But this isn't that interesting.
Wait, what's the difference between and XL4 and an Elite?
haplo888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 11:25 AM   #24
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by haplo888 View Post
Wait, what's the difference between and XL4 and an Elite?
Just the name.

The XL4 originally came out as the Elite. They then renamed it the XL4 around the time they offered the Premiere 4.
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:36 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |