Tivo Series 3 - Bad capacitors in power supply - Page 4

unitron · 11-19-2012, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATB

Pretty certain it was a 250..thats the size drive I found to put back in. But frankly I only ever venture back here every few years when I need to replace a drive or fix something else. Meaning I'm really not sure which model I have..I'll have to check when I'm home.

If it has a digital clock display on the front and it looks like a thermometer on it's side, and there are buttons that duplicate some of the remote control buttons, and the cable card slots are on the back, it's a TCD648250.

ATB · 11-19-2012, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unitron

If it has a digital clock display on the front and it looks like a thermometer on it's side, and there are buttons that duplicate some of the remote control buttons, and the cable card slots are on the back, it's a TCD648250.

Thats the one. Its a S3 OLED not a HD

lrhorer · 11-19-2012, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unitron

Assuming that current flows from positive to negative is known as conventional current theory, and still gets used a lot, especially in analyzing negative ground systems.

It is not a matter of theory, it is just a convention, and there is nothing wrong with flipping the conventon, as long as one does it throughout one's analysis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unitron

Electron current theory says that the flow of current is actually the flow of electrons, and it goes from negative to positive.

I'm afraid that is not entirely correct. Electrical current is actually a disturbance, not the flow of charges itself. The flow of charges is usually quite slow, perhaps less than 1 meter per second, and highly variable, but the electrical disturbance travels at the speed of light, only slightly slower than that in a solid medium. In a given medium, it is not variable at all. The charge velocity is dependent upon the potential difference (voltage) and the mass of the charge carriers. Finally, it does not only arise as a result of electron flux. It can also be created as a result of a flow of positive charges, such as may be the case in an electrolytic solution, for example. In semiconductors, it is the result of a flow of neither positive nor negative charges, exactly, but rather as the result of the propagation of "holes" in the semiconductor material. If you have a battery powered device at hand, the flow of electrical current may be the result of all three types of charge carrier flux. (Note, too that in an electrolytic solution, negative charges may be transported, but the carrier may not be a simple electron. It may be a negatively charged ion.)

turbobozz · 11-19-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrhorer

It is not a matter of theory, it is just a convention, and there is nothing wrong with flipping the conventon, as long as one does it throughout one's analysis.

I'm afraid that is not entirely correct. Electrical current is actually a disturbance, not the flow of charges itself. The flow of charges is usually quite slow, perhaps less than 1 meter per second, and highly variable, but the electrical disturbance travels at the speed of light, only slightly slower than that in a solid medium. In a given medium, it is not variable at all. The charge velocity is dependent upon the potential difference (voltage) and the mass of the charge carriers. Finally, it does not only arise as a result of electron flux. It can also be created as a result of a flow of positive charges, such as may be the case in an electrolytic solution, for example. In semiconductors, it is the result of a flow of neither positive nor negative charges, exactly, but rather as the result of the propagation of "holes" in the semiconductor material. If you have a battery powered device at hand, the flow of electrical current may be the result of all three types of charge carrier flux. (Note, too that in an electrolytic solution, negative charges may be transported, but the carrier may not be a simple electron. It may be a negatively charged ion.)

Seriously?
Dredging up 5 month old posts to point out "problems" with the level of abstraction he reduced current theory to? His description was good enough.
And then not even getting what you posted correct... Semi's use both electrons and holes.

unitron · 11-19-2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbobozz

Seriously?
Dredging up 5 month old posts to point out "problems" with the level of abstraction he reduced current theory to? His description was good enough.
And then not even getting what you posted correct... Semi's use both electrons and holes.

That's just him being him for the edification of future searchers.

Or else they're recalibrating his meds and dosages again.

But seriously, he's been informative and of assistance to enough people around here that he can pick on me all he wants to.

Now if I could just get him to employ a little more tact and diplomacy in some of his responses to others...

unitron · 01-20-2013, 04:50 AM

Bump

Matterhorn · 01-22-2013, 11:54 PM

I have been reading these threads for some time, and about 3 months ago, my Tivo (Series 3 HD) starting rebooting every few days. I thought it might be the hard drive, so I installed a new one. Tivo kept rebooting every couple of days, then after a month or so it reboots every few hours, so I thought I would try buying a used Tivo (same series) and replaced the power supply (capacitors looked to be okay when I installed it). Now it is rebooting every couple of minutes. I hate to throw good money after bad, but I also hate to give up at this point. Do you think the power supply on the one I just bought was also bad? Any suggestions?

unitron · 01-23-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matterhorn

I have been reading these threads for some time, and about 3 months ago, my Tivo (Series 3 HD) starting rebooting every few days. I thought it might be the hard drive, so I installed a new one. Tivo kept rebooting every couple of days, then after a month or so it reboots every few hours, so I thought I would try buying a used Tivo (same series) and replaced the power supply (capacitors looked to be okay when I installed it). Now it is rebooting every couple of minutes. I hate to throw good money after bad, but I also hate to give up at this point. Do you think the power supply on the one I just bought was also bad? Any suggestions?

Do you have this TiVo plugged into a UPS?

Matterhorn · 01-23-2013, 12:05 PM

Yes, I do have it plugged into a UPS. Should I try plugging it in directly to the wall outlet?

unitron · 01-23-2013, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matterhorn

Yes, I do have it plugged into a UPS. Should I try plugging it in directly to the wall outlet?

I was trying to confirm or eliminate the possibility of the reboots being caused by blips in the power coming into the house, blips that might not be long enough for you to notice the lights dim.

But if you're sure the TiVo is plugged into the UPS's battery backup outlets and not just the surge protected outlets, then the power company isn't at fault.

It is possible for a capacitor to be going bad but not show visible signs (but if it shows visible signs it is going bad for sure).

Do you happen to own a voltmeter?

Matterhorn · 01-23-2013, 03:37 PM

I thought the unit was connected to a UPS, but it isn't. It's on a rather large surge protector that is behind our TV unit, so I thought it was a UPS. I don't own a voltmeter, but I will see if I can get my hands on one. Is there a list of problems that I can start to eliminate? I am pretty sure that it is not the hard drive. The rebooting continued after installation of a new hard drive. When the problem of rebooting started several months ago, I noticed that it happened a lot when we used NetFlix or Amazon. The unit would freeze or reboot. Then it started happening with TV shows, and has been rebooting more frequently. Now, we can't watch anything for more than a minute or two before it reboots.

unitron · 01-23-2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matterhorn

I thought the unit was connected to a UPS, but it isn't. It's on a rather large surge protector that is behind our TV unit, so I thought it was a UPS. I don't own a voltmeter, but I will see if I can get my hands on one. Is there a list of problems that I can start to eliminate? I am pretty sure that it is not the hard drive. The rebooting continued after installation of a new hard drive. When the problem of rebooting started several months ago, I noticed that it happened a lot when we used NetFlix or Amazon. The unit would freeze or reboot. Then it started happening with TV shows, and has been rebooting more frequently. Now, we can't watch anything for more than a minute or two before it reboots.

If the reboots are getting closer and closer together, that pretty much rules out random blips on the incoming AC wires.

You should go ahead and run the manufacturer's diagnostic long test on both the old drive and the replacement, but unless there's something going wrong on the TiVo's motherboard itself, which I definitely am not going to be able to diagnose long distance, I suspect the power supply getting increasingly flaky, almost certainly due to "capacitor plague", even if they aren't showing visible signs of it.

Click on my user name and search my comments for the last month and you'll find at least one long one where I detail how to measure the voltage on the +12 and +5 lines, both with and without the drive hooked up.

Also, you can remove cable, cable cards and network connections and anything else plugged into the back panel except the power cord and a composite video lead (yellow RCA jack) to simplify what's drawing power and see if that makes a difference in how often the reboots happen--if it gives you more uptime, then it's almost certainly the power supply.

rickertk · 01-23-2013, 06:23 PM

So I'm fairly sure this is affecting me as well. My Series3 (2006, OLED display) went into a reboot loop this morning - it would take the kickstart codes but not actually start the kickstart routines. I unplugged it for the day. This evening, I just get ticking from the power supply when plugged in, and the fan doesn't power on. (I have the case off, so I'm sure of where the ticking is from). By feel, 3 of my capacitors have a bulged top - C401, C402(? I can't see the label, but it's immediately adjacent to C401), and C701. From the sounds of it, I need to get a Torx T8 (I have a 10, and several larger sizes, but not an 8), and I could probably stand a beefier soldering iron if I wanted to try replacing the caps myself - for that matter, where are people buying caps?

Keith

unitron · 01-23-2013, 08:18 PM

ATTENTION CAPACITOR REPLACERS

Electrolytic capacitors have polarity markings for a very good reason, be careful not to install the new ones backwards.

So far I've seen people mention getting Low ESR caps from Mouser, digi-key, their local Fry's and on Amazon.

If you're near Raleigh, I can hook you up with a guy...

Also badcaps.net and lcdalternatives.com warrant your consideration.

HerronScott · 01-23-2013, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickertk

So I'm fairly sure this is affecting me as well. My Series3 (2006, OLED display) went into a reboot loop this morning - it would take the kickstart codes but not actually start the kickstart routines. I unplugged it for the day. This evening, I just get ticking from the power supply when plugged in, and the fan doesn't power on. (I have the case off, so I'm sure of where the ticking is from). By feel, 3 of my capacitors have a bulged top - C401, C402(? I can't see the label, but it's immediately adjacent to C401), and C701. From the sounds of it, I need to get a Torx T8 (I have a 10, and several larger sizes, but not an 8), and I could probably stand a beefier soldering iron if I wanted to try replacing the caps myself - for that matter, where are people buying caps?

Keith

Keith,

Check out my post 61 in this thread. I got mine at Digikey.

Scott

rickertk · 01-24-2013, 05:59 AM

Thanks, I just placed an order with them. Your catalog #s were not in stock, so I had to navigate my way through to something that looked about right (match to capacitance and voltage, decent rated lifetime, right style for putting onto the board. Hope I get something workable.

Keith

HerronScott · 01-24-2013, 06:06 AM

Keith,

Other than the specs you mentioned, they other key requirement is a low ESR rating.

Scott

rickertk · 01-24-2013, 07:37 AM

On the Digikey site, does - in the ESR field indicate low, or not available (if you know)? If that indicates low, then I should be ok. If not, then I'm not sure what to go with.

Keith

rickertk · 01-26-2013, 02:56 PM

Woohoo! My Tivo is back up and running, having replaced the 3 apparently failed (all bulging) capacitors in the power board. I way overpaid for shipping for the capacitors (especially since Digikey's estimate was way lower than what they charged) but still out less than I would be for a board, and I have that sense of accomplishment. I don't know about anyone else, but it was much easier getting a new cap soldered in than it was getting the old ones out - maybe that's where a better desoldering braid would have been most useful.

Keith

Mikeyis4dcats · 02-10-2013, 10:12 AM

Looks like I'm joining the club. One of the smaller caps on my HD is slightly domed and I'm gray screened. Is there a "map" anywhere of the various caps on the board and the specs of each?

HerronScott · 02-10-2013, 01:42 PM

What are the part numbers and manufacturer of the power supply in your HD and do you have the number of the capacitor (Cxxx) that's bulging?

Scott

Mikeyis4dcats · 02-11-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerronScott

What are the part numbers and manufacturer of the power supply in your HD and do you have the number of the capacitor (Cxxx) that's bulging?

Scott

The cap is number C31. Model ST7002-BW0G by AC Bel.

Looks like it was actually a hard drive failure, as the original drive boots up, but I might as well replace the cap while I've got it open.

unitron · 02-11-2013, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeyis4dcats

The cap is number C31. Model ST7002-BW0G by AC Bel.

Looks like it was actually a hard drive failure, as the original drive boots up, but I might as well replace the cap while I've got it open.

Any cap that is not absolutely, positively perfectly flat on the top needs replacing, regardless of any other problems the TiVo might have.

HerronScott · 02-11-2013, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeyis4dcats

The cap is number C31. Model ST7002-BW0G by AC Bel.

That appears to match what's in my TiVo HD. Note that I've only replaced the capacitors in one of my S3 OLED's but while I was upgrading the hard drive in our TiVo HD, I wrote down the capacitor information for future reference.

TiVo S3 HD capacitor list:
Acbel Polytech: ST7002-BW0G
TiVo PN: SPWR-00011-000 Rev B0

C14 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C27 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C17 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C31 1000uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C102L P14397-ND $0.71

C15 1000uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FM0J102 P12340-ND $0.51
C20 470uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C471 P14383-ND $0.49 (Alternate: P15342CT-ND?)

Can you compare these to what are in yours? It would be good to get someone that has replaced them in an HD to verify as well.

Scott

unitron · 02-11-2013, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerronScott

That appears to match what's in my TiVo HD. Note that I've only replaced the capacitors in one of my S3 OLED's but while I was upgrading the hard drive in our TiVo HD, I wrote down the capacitor information for future reference.

TiVo S3 HD capacitor list:
Acbel Polytech: ST7002-BW0G
TiVo PN: SPWR-00011-000 Rev B0

C14 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C27 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C?? 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C31 1000uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C102L P14397-ND $0.71

C15 1000uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FM0J102 P12340-ND $0.51
C20 470uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C471 P14383-ND $0.49 (Alternate: P15342CT-ND?)

Can you compare these to what are in yours? It would be good to get someone that has replaced them in an HD to verify as well.

Scott

That thing next to C27 is probably C17, both of which are on the 5V rail, as is C20.

C31 is on the 12V rail.

More later, when I clear some bench space.

Mikeyis4dcats · 02-12-2013, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerronScott

That appears to match what's in my TiVo HD. Note that I've only replaced the capacitors in one of my S3 OLED's but while I was upgrading the hard drive in our TiVo HD, I wrote down the capacitor information for future reference.

TiVo S3 HD capacitor list:
Acbel Polytech: ST7002-BW0G
TiVo PN: SPWR-00011-000 Rev B0

C14 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C27 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C?? 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 P14402-ND $1.01
C31 1000uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C102L P14397-ND $0.71

C15 1000uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FM0J102 P12340-ND $0.51
C20 470uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C471 P14383-ND $0.49 (Alternate: P15342CT-ND?)

Can you compare these to what are in yours? It would be good to get someone that has replaced them in an HD to verify as well.

Scott

from what I see they appear the same, although I cannot see anything on C31 except "L42 105*C" "7508D 16v"

looking on Digikey, I see EEU-FR1C102L P14397-ND listed as "ESR -". Does that mean it is or isn't low ESR?

unitron · 02-12-2013, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeyis4dcats

from what I see they appear the same, although I cannot see anything on C31 except "L42 105*C" "7508D 16v"

looking on Digikey, I see EEU-FR1C102L P14397-ND listed as "ESR -". Does that mean it is or isn't low ESR?

Mouser says the Panasonic EEU-FR1C102L P14397-ND is low ESR

My notes say C31 on the ST7002 is a 1000uF 16V, and it's across the +12V output.

harry99 · 02-15-2013, 01:03 PM

After just taking Tivo deal to upgrade an HD to a Premiere 4 and get a lifetime on the HD for $99 - the HD stopped working within 4 days. Similar problem to another in thread where it starts powering up with Welcome Screen, and after 20 - 30 secs goes black and then starts up over again. Have a Hitachi 1TB drive installed 3yrs ago - haven't tested that yet. Don't see any bulging or leaking capacitors. Tivo support thinks power supply problem likely. Any thoughts on how to isolate the problem? Anything to listen for? Meanwhile I'll try to test the Hitachi drive.

Thanks.

Mikeyis4dcats · 02-15-2013, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry99

After just taking Tivo deal to upgrade an HD to a Premiere 4 and get a lifetime on the HD for $99 - the HD stopped working within 4 days. Similar problem to another in thread where it starts powering up with Welcome Screen, and after 20 - 30 secs goes black and then starts up over again. Have a Hitachi 1TB drive installed 3yrs ago - haven't tested that yet. Don't see any bulging or leaking capacitors. Tivo support thinks power supply problem likely. Any thoughts on how to isolate the problem? Anything to listen for? Meanwhile I'll try to test the Hitachi drive.

Thanks.

wow! are you me? Aside from mine crapping out about 2 weeks later, this is my story, including the Hitachi 1TB drive. I do have one cap with a very very slight bulge, but it was my drive that crashed.

jrtroo · 02-15-2013, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry99

Tivo support thinks power supply problem likely. Any thoughts on how to isolate the problem? Anything to listen for? Meanwhile I'll try to test the Hitachi drive.

Yes- read this entire thread and test that hard drive. Others may recommend putting in the old drive and see what happens. Personally, I would test the Hitachi one before putting in the old drive to eliminate that as a possibility.

Different drives have different current pulls and reactions to low voltage conditions. So I would not expose a known good drive to a potential voltage problem, if you could avoid it.