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Old 08-27-2012, 04:21 PM   #31
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And then there's this:

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The Pennsylvania law has drawn considerable attention, particularly after Republican Mike Turzai, Pennsylvania's House majority leader, said in a video that has since gone viral that the state's new law "is going to allow Governor (Mitt) Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania -- done."
Um...come again?
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:32 PM   #32
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Flop strongly supports Voter ID laws. He believes fraud is rampant even though by his own admission he has no data whatsoever upon which to base that. That's because poor Flop has been lied to for so long that he doesn't know it's a lie.
I'll tell you why I support voter ID. I grew up in southern California. Many of the kids in my high school were children of illegal immigrants. In history/social studies/US government classes when the topic of elections/voting was raised they would talk about their parents voting and say how easy it was. As I wrote previously, my data is only anecdotal, but I know there are more than 10 cases of in-person voter fraud in 10 years. What the actual number is, I have no idea.

Maybe you don't believe fraud is prevalent enough to worry about it, and I will grant you that in national elections it probably doesn't affect outcomes. In local elections it may have a larger impact. Voter ID isn't perfect, and will not stop all fraud. It will stop some. I sympathize with people who would have a hard time obtaining ID and every effort should be made to accommodate them. It is their right to vote, and I wouldn't ever want to deny that right, but to imply that I support voter ID because I'm so stupid I believe whatever the RNC is spewing is a petty personal attack.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:54 PM   #33
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By its nature, fraud is inherently hidden, which means "reported cases" suggest that there's a whole lot more that have gone unnoticed.

If every act of fraud could be recorded, it wouldn't really be fraud, would it?


Come on people, statistics.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:56 PM   #34
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Where does it say in the constitution that I have to have an ID to vote?
Where does it say I have to obtain a permit to carry a firearm?

Because apparently I do, or in some states I can't carry one at all.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:29 PM   #35
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Where does it say I have to obtain a permit to carry a firearm?

Because apparently I do, or in some states I can't carry one at all.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #36
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I'll tell you why I support voter ID. I grew up in southern California. Many of the kids in my high school were children of illegal immigrants. In history/social studies/US government classes when the topic of elections/voting was raised they would talk about their parents voting and say how easy it was. As I wrote previously, my data is only anecdotal, but I know there are more than 10 cases of in-person voter fraud in 10 years. What the actual number is, I have no idea.
Actually you don't know that. You don't know that any of those kids were telling the truth and you don't know that a single one of their parents ever committed in person voter fraud. They may well have been using absentee ballots, which Voter ID will not affect in the least and which is FAR easier to do.

And let me add: high school and college students have been getting fake IDs so they can drink for several generations. Do you honestly think that someone intent on committing significant voter fraud isn't at least as smart as kids going to Spring Break? Do you honestly believe that someone who is trying to affect our elections in a significant way is going to be deterred by requiring a photo ID? No. The only people who will be deterred are honest people, in exactly the same way that DRM only affects honest customers and not those who wanted to pirate in the first place. It's a waste of time and money.

Quote:
Maybe you don't believe fraud is prevalent enough to worry about it, and I will grant you that in national elections it probably doesn't affect outcomes. In local elections it may have a larger impact. Voter ID isn't perfect, and will not stop all fraud. It will stop some.
It won't stop any significant fraud. Even the state of Illinois, when asked in Court, admitted that their Voter ID law would not have prevented any of the fraud attempts of which they were aware.

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I sympathize with people who would have a hard time obtaining ID and every effort should be made to accommodate them. It is their right to vote, and I wouldn't ever want to deny that right, but to imply that I support voter ID because I'm so stupid I believe whatever the RNC is spewing is a petty personal attack.
I'm not putting forth the idea that you are stupid. I'm putting forth the idea that "The BIG LIE" works. This is hardly a new idea. If you make a little lie, people might notice. But say something totally outrageous and you are more likely to be believed. Say it often enough and that likelihood goes up. Say it often enough over a long enough time period and you can convince a large majority that it's true.

Look how many people still believe that Obama wasn't born in the US, in spite of all the evidence put forth? The Big Lie has ensnared them.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:49 PM   #37
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Literacy tests... poll taxes... Voter ID.

They change the name, but the game's the same.
So this. The experts of voter suppression (Dixiecrats) are in the Tea/Republican Party. Gotta know your history.

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What if you are in your 90s, and you have no income, so you pay no tax, and you have no utility bills, and you live with your kids and have no bills in your name and you don't have a weapons permit?

PAs answer to that is to have the person that you live with come to the DMV and vouch for you. So now your kid, or whomever, has to take off work and go with you (which, honestly, they probably did anyway since there's ZERO public transport in my home county).

This is just a boondoggle.
Exactly. I had to explain this to my cleaning lady last week who considered herself "poor". She caught on quickly when I told her that "poor" people don't have cars, drivers licenses, smartphones, etc. Poor people don't have the $25-35 to buy a photo ID. $25-35 would be for food.

I also reminded her about people like @Lori mentioned. My mother still has her drivers license but will likely not renew it since she doesn't drive anymore. She'll have to PROVE that she is eligible to continue to vote after voting for over 50 years. She was not able to vote so in her early adult years in the South because of voter suppression. Now at almost 90 years old, she is faced with the same crap and she is a Republican!

It is just wrong and history will not look favorably on this.

The show was good to bring this out. I just can't stand all of the personal stories in the show. It is so high school.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:55 PM   #38
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And then there's this:



Um...come again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:22 PM   #39
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I really liked this episode. And this is now one of my favorite shows. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised at this point on the political leanings of the characters or the love triangles. It's been well established what this show is going to be about.

I like it for what it is, and think Sorkin's writing is some of the best on tv.
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I loved all 10 hours. But I'm their demo, and Aaron sometimes seems like he's eavesdropping on the conversations I have with my friends.

I can't wait for season two.
I'm with you guys. My wife and I love everything about this show.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:18 PM   #40
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Polls are frequently in the neighborhood where you live. Just a few miles away. For me to get to the DMV I'd have to travel at least 15 miles. If I lived rural, I can't image in how far. And what if they charged for the state issued ID? You think that's fair too?
And the OP has apparently not dealt with people in housing projects much. No way to agency issuing ID's,only way to polls is GOtV volunteer drivers.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:54 PM   #41
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I'm with Robo. I stuck it out, but SP is deleted and I won't be back next season. I know Sorkin is a liberal, but if they're trying to do a show about a news program taking politicians to task, at least make an effort to hit both parties. This week's "stories" seemed more like propaganda talking points issued by the DNC than it did about serious journalists covering stories. On the West Wing, a more one-sided bias was fine since it was about an administration which you would assume is a bit lopsided in it's political views. On a show about a newroom doing "real news", it feels like MSNBC.

Personally, I strongly favor voter ID laws. If the 92 year old lady from Tennessee could make it to the polls to vote, she could make it to whatever agency in TN issues state IDs.

The Tea Party stuff seemed like it was written by a rabid blogger from HuffPo.

Anyhow, I'm done with this show. If I want any more left wing propaganda, I can turn on MSNBC or CNN. When I want the right wing side, I'll turn on Fox. If this show had at least made an attempt to appear neutral and slam both parties for their hi-jinx, then I'd probably stick around, but the personal/relationship stuff isn't engaging and the "news" stuff is lacking and one-sided.
The Dorothy Cooper case is actually real. I remember reading it a while back. The issue is that the building that had her birth records in it burned down before they were transferred to digital copy. This might have happened years and years ago. So she can't get an ID because no birth record of her exists.

Edit to add: I was a little off. Here's an article explaining what happened http://articles.cnn.com/2011-10-15/o...?_s=PM:OPINION
Quote:
In 2011, Republicans in Tennessee passed a law requiring all voters to show current, government-issued photo identification before voting in person. Mrs. Cooper has a Social Security card and a photo ID issued by the Chattanooga Police Department for seniors in her housing complex.

When she went to the Tennessee Driver Service Center to obtain a new photo ID before the next election, she came prepared. She had her rent receipt, a copy of her lease, voter registration card and birth certificate.

But under the new Republican law, this still wasn't good enough. Tennessee refused to issue Mrs. Cooper a photo ID because the last name on her birth certificate is different from her married name, the name she uses now. But she has no marriage certificate, so she cannot clear up the discrepancy to Tennessee's satisfaction. And so she cannot enter a voting booth and have her vote counted.

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Old 08-28-2012, 12:41 AM   #42
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Polls are frequently in the neighborhood where you live. Just a few miles away. For me to get to the DMV I'd have to travel at least 15 miles. If I lived rural, I can't image in how far. And what if they charged for the state issued ID? You think that's fair too?
They do charge. In IL it's $20.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:47 AM   #43
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Like I said, in my area you have to have an ID for practically everything and I find it weird that in other parts of the nation people go for decades without any identification.
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But the people they are trying to disenfranchise aren't you. They aren't worried about people with credit cards. They are trying to eliminate poor people, who mostly deal in cash, and take public transportation.
This, exactly. I spent some years like this when I was young. I'm not sure that people who aren't familiar with it really understand. Things like "spend a few minutes", "it's only $25", etc. are easy to say, but that's just not reality for many people. And as others have mentioned, it's often NOT just that easy: these laws are not designed to make it easy for people to get ID: if they were that would defeat the purpose (both real and stated).

For the show, even though I consider myself a moderate progressive and I did agree with a lot of the shots taken at the far Right in this episode so in that sense I can't complain, I do wish we could get some clear-eyed look at the far Left. On the other hand the far Left is not getting anyone elected to Congress so they can be more safely classified as out of the mainstream. Also the party out of power is usually more activist than the part in power. Still there must be something they could put up there.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:55 AM   #44
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Quit moving goalposts
The absence of a constitutionally-explicit restriction does not mean restrictions cannot exist or be introduced later on.

Rights are unlimited in spirit, regulated in reality.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:58 AM   #45
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They do charge. In IL it's $20.
Personally, I think a government-issued piece of ID should be free.
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:10 AM   #46
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Personally, I think a government-issued piece of ID should be free.
Yes!
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:14 AM   #47
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and easy to get.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:14 AM   #48
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In fact, you should be able to get one at the post office.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:20 AM   #49
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I'm with you guys. My wife and I love everything about this show.
I love the show but the women characters bother me. Sorkin needs a female co-author to write stronger women.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:30 AM   #50
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In fact, you should be able to get one at the post office.
I'd also go grocery store.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:34 AM   #51
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And time it to take effect after an election, not right before one.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:16 AM   #52
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I'm against the photo ID requirement, at least in the way that it's being proposed. I already HAVE a voter ID -- my voter registration card. If I can produce that, I shouldn't have to produce anything else, IMO. But having said that, if you want to institute a photo requirement, then just put a photo on the voter registration cards, fergodsakes. And have a photo booth set up at the polling place where the card/photo can be updated/renewed every 4 years (or every 8, or whatever). Simple.

Of course "simple" is exactly what they don't want.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:19 AM   #53
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What happens you have vote by mail? Do we mail in the ID as well?
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:43 AM   #54
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What happens you have vote by mail? Do we mail in the ID as well?
No. Voter ID is only for "in person voter fraud", the least likely type of fraud to occur. Absentee and mail-in votes, which are far easier to commit fraud with, are unaffected by this effort.

Which should be sufficient evidence that curbing voter fraud is not the real goal.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:53 AM   #55
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Back to the show...

I am not sure why they threw the curveball of Sloan and Don. I really thought Sloan was going to fall for the Neal.

I hated the Jim/Maggie thing. I guess I never understood why two people who really like each other should try to be together no matter what. Even if that means messing up friendships.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:19 PM   #56
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I believe voter fraud is greater than the 86 cases, but I have nothing other than anecdotal evidence to support this. I'm curious on your thoughts about requiring an ID. Do you think a few minutes spent to get an ID is too much to ask of someone who wishes to vote?
Living in Turtletown, in East Polk County TN I can tell you it is a chore to get a picture ID here. The county does not have an office on this side of the national park, and our closest office that can do it is in Cleveland which takes at least 30 minutes one way through a narrow river valley. No public transport either.

To get a picture ID would take at least a half-day just to affirm your right to vote.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:31 PM   #57
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Oh my god, why must this show focus so much on the relationships? It just saps the life of all the other plots. Sex & the City tours? Sloan is into Don, why make it more complicated? Mac is damned annoying. It's all crap. I'm glad this season is over, makes it easy to delete the SP and not wait and see if this crap gets better. These people act like little annoying high school kids.
I agree 10000000%!!!

I like the rest of the show and I'm OK with the politics especially knowing its Sorkin but his treatment of relationships is high school at best. I know they would not eliminate the relationship aspects but if they minimized them the show would be much better!!

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Old 08-28-2012, 01:24 PM   #58
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I agree 10000000%!!!

I like the rest of the show and I'm OK with the politics especially knowing its Sorkin but his treatment of relationships is high school at best. I know they would not eliminate the relationship aspects but if they minimized them the show would be much better!!

Gerry
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:02 PM   #59
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The relationships are what make these people real for me, what makes me care at all about what happens to them.
It's the way these people bring up their relationships constantly during meetings with the rest of the staff and what not, I see it as childish behavior. Like Maggie screaming at the Sex and the City tour bus, really?. If they toned it down, it removed the childish behavior it would work. Like I and others have said, it feels like I'm watching middle or young high school children drag out their emotions.
Mac and Will's relationship feels real, however Mac throwing her tantrums all the damn time is what I find annoying. She's supposed to be the producer and boss of this news room, but because of her tantrums I don't see her as an authority figure at all.
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Old 08-28-2012, 03:12 PM   #60
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My wife's grandfather keeps an ID on him at all times (probably of the collected mindset of the area) and he hasn't driven a car in years. You need it to buy anything except when using cash or debit.
See, that seems weird to me. I need my ID so rarely that when I fly I have to dig through my wallet to find it because it tends to migrate toward the middle of the card pile from lack of use.

I renewed my license last month and, except to show the new style to some friends, the new one's never had to come out of the wallet. If I ever paid by check I might have to show ID, but not for credit card (or cash).

Actually, aside from at the DMV for renewal, I'm failing to remember the last time I had to show my license. (I know I had to use my passport in early June, but the driver's license...)
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