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Old 08-24-2012, 05:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by crxssi View Post
All I can say/warn is:

Buy it for what it claims to do now, not for claims of what it MIGHT do later

Which is good advice when it comes to TiVo stuff. They have a hard enough time making products fill the "now" claims.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. From my understanding the Mini will be able to stream from 2-tuner units with launch software (using MRS mechanism which is standard between any 2 Premiere units). The problem is you also need a 4-tuner unit to be able to set it up so initially only useful for those with at least 1 4-tuner unit in the household.
Of course until it actually launches we won't know any of this for sure...
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:35 AM   #62
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I really want a couple of the Tivo Minis but they will have to support a Tivo that has OTA tuners first. Without OTA to connect to, the mini is useless. So Tivo needs to either get the mini connected to the Premiere, or relase a new 4 tuner box that has OTA tuners.
I'm not following the logic behind this, unless you really have a need to watch live TV on another set that doesn't get OTA on its own. I think most folks will use the Mini to stream recordings and maybe use some internet apps, not watch live TV.

So a Mini without OTA tuner access is in no way 'useless', because there are other ways to get OTA live. Access to a cablecard tuner is way more important for those that want live TV.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:13 AM   #63
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. From my understanding the Mini will be able to stream from 2-tuner units with launch software (using MRS mechanism which is standard between any 2 Premiere units). The problem is you also need a 4-tuner unit to be able to set it up so initially only useful for those with at least 1 4-tuner unit in the household.
Of course until it actually launches we won't know any of this for sure...
If it's just a setup problem, that sounds pretty lame. Since (as others have commented) streaming from a 2-tuner Premiere would provide most of the Mini's usefulness, they should just allow the option of setting it up without linking it to a live tuner. How hard could that be? When it's not streaming, the attached TV could just display a logo screen. Streaming live TV, presumably because the TV doesn't have a cable card, would just not be an option for those without a 4-tuner unit, at least until they work out the (possibly tricky?) problem of dynamically allocating and deallocating a tuner as needed.
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:23 PM   #64
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I'm not following the logic behind this, unless you really have a need to watch live TV on another set that doesn't get OTA on its own. I think most folks will use the Mini to stream recordings and maybe use some internet apps, not watch live TV.

So a Mini without OTA tuner access is in no way 'useless', because there are other ways to get OTA live. Access to a cablecard tuner is way more important for those that want live TV.
He was saying that because it only works with the 4 tuner units, and the 4 tuner units don't do OTA, it's useless to him. I doubt many of us care about live TV regardless of the source. However the reason for the current limitation is because the product was originally designed for cable operators and they think streaming live TV is important.

I agree that they should allow it to be setup as a dumb streaming box with no access to live TV. As I said I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway.

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Old 08-25-2012, 01:31 PM   #65
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I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:07 PM   #66
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The only reason I watch live TV is when there is a breaking news story that interests me. I can't see any other situation when I want to watch live TV.
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:08 PM   #67
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He was saying that because it only works with the 4 tuner units, and the 4 tuner units don't do OTA, it's useless to him. I doubt many of us care about live TV regardless of the source. However the reason for the current limitation is because the product was originally designed for cable operators and they think streaming live TV is important.

I agree that they should allow it to be setup as a dumb streaming box with no access to live TV. As I said I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway.

Dan
and if you need to watch something live you can just hit record and then start streaming it right away instead of dedicating a tuner to the mini.
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:29 PM   #68
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and if you need to watch something live you can just hit record and then start streaming it right away instead of dedicating a tuner to the mini.
Except you have to go to another Premiere to do so or use iPad/Android/kmttg or equivalent to start a recording.
I also don't care for Live TV but know there are others that do (including some in my family) and having Live TV capability does add value for some prospective buyers. If Live TV was an OPTION instead of a REQUIREMENT then that would satisfy both camps, so I think that's where TiVo should be headed with it.

Perhaps one clever way to give close to Live TV capability without requiring a dedicated tuner is to allow the Mini to connect to any Premiere (4 tuner or 2 tuner) and start a recording on it, then one could use MRS to view it on the Mini. Not the same as Live TV and quick channel changing capabilities but gives you ability to watch something close to Live.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:38 PM   #69
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Perhaps one clever way to give close to Live TV capability without requiring a dedicated tuner is to allow the Mini to connect to any Premiere (4 tuner or 2 tuner) and start a recording on it, then one could use MRS to view it on the Mini. Not the same as Live TV and quick channel changing capabilities but gives you ability to watch something close to Live.
Good idea. I'm guessing that's the way the iOS apps are going to handle live TV. It's certainly not the seamless experience most will want for an extender but it's probably the direction TiVo will head with the Mini experience. Dedicating a tuner means they can truly make the Mini experience nearly identical to the host Premiere.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:20 AM   #70
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They already said at launch it would only be able to be used with an XL4/Elite. With plans to use it with the two tuner Premieres later. Once they are able to update the software. Unless things have changed and they have that feature working at launch.(unlikely but you never know)
Just like the Premiere would have a full HD interface with a software update just after launch.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:27 AM   #71
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I'm not following the logic behind this, unless you really have a need to watch live TV on another set that doesn't get OTA on its own. I think most folks will use the Mini to stream recordings and maybe use some internet apps, not watch live TV.

So a Mini without OTA tuner access is in no way 'useless', because there are other ways to get OTA live. Access to a cablecard tuner is way more important for those that want live TV.
No, the mini will be useless as it cannot connect to an OTA capable Tivo AT ALL. OTA households are out in the cold. Its a cable TV device only.
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:33 AM   #72
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No, the mini will be useless as it cannot connect to an OTA capable Tivo AT ALL. OTA households are out in the cold. Its a cable TV device only.
Premiere & Premiere XL have OTA tuners and you will be able to stream from them.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #73
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Premiere & Premiere XL have OTA tuners and you will be able to stream from them.
Are you suggesting that you could set the Mini up using a friend's 4-tuner unit and then take it home to use with your Premiere or Premiere XL? Or are you just saying that it's supposed to work with all Premieres eventually?
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:51 AM   #74
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Are you suggesting that you could set the Mini up using a friend's 4-tuner unit and then take it home to use with your Premiere or Premiere XL? Or are you just saying that it's supposed to work with all Premieres eventually?
Simply put I'm saying the Mini will be able to MRS from any Series 4 TiVo. The supposed problem at launch is you will need a 4-tuner unit available to initialize the Mini with which is the main complaint of this thread so far. So supposedly at launch if you have a 4-tuner model and 1 or more 2-tuner models you will be able to stream shows from all units, not just the 4-tuner model.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:13 AM   #75
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Simply put I'm saying the Mini will be able to MRS from any Series 4 TiVo. The supposed problem at launch is you will need a 4-tuner unit available to initialize the Mini with which is the main complaint of this thread so far. So supposedly at launch if you have a 4-tuner model and 1 or more 2-tuner models you will be able to stream shows from all units, not just the 4-tuner model.
It seems like it would be a very minor change to allow an MRS-only Mini at launch. Of course it's another path through the software that would require extensive additional testing and error checking.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:26 AM   #76
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He was saying that because it only works with the 4 tuner units, and the 4 tuner units don't do OTA, it's useless to him. I doubt many of us care about live TV regardless of the source. However the reason for the current limitation is because the product was originally designed for cable operators and they think streaming live TV is important.

I agree that they should allow it to be setup as a dumb streaming box with no access to live TV. As I said I doubt many of us care about live TV anyway.

Dan
I see the mini as the PERFECT solution to the bedroom TV problem in a FiOS house where I'm currently using a small HTPC to stream live TV from an HDHomerun Prime. It means the HTPC can go away and I can have a simple solution AND get access to items on my XL4 to allow them to stream.

So not only do I care about Live TV, the mini is targeted 100% right at my needs.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:35 AM   #77
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Any guesses if the "Mini" will have built in wireless? Seems to me that they should include it but they also might be interested in selling some sort of "doggle" to increase revenue.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:37 AM   #78
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Any guesses if the "Mini" will have built in wireless? Seems to me that they should include it but they also might be interested in selling some sort of "doggle" to increase revenue.
No guess required. The Mini is MoCA and Wired Ethernet only. Wireless is too unreliable to stream Mpeg2.
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:06 AM   #79
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No guess required. The Mini is MoCA and Wired Ethernet only. Wireless is too unreliable to stream Mpeg2.
Wireless *CAN* be too unreliable but that doesn't mean it *IS*. It depends on lots and lots of factors. Given that the bandwidth requirements for MPEG2 HD are high, and consumers are generally totally clueless about how WiFi works, interference, channels, signal propagation, protocols, etc, I can see why TiVo would not want include wireless, it is just a support nightmare.

Of course all you have to do is connect a so-called "WiFi gaming adapter" to the Mini and you are wireless (and at your own "risk").
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:15 AM   #80
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Wireless *CAN* be too unreliable but that doesn't mean it *IS*. It depends on lots and lots of factors. Given that the bandwidth requirements for MPEG2 HD are high, and consumers are generally totally clueless about how WiFi works, interference, channels, signal propagation, protocols, etc, I can see why TiVo would not want include wireless, it is just a support nightmare.

Of course all you have to do is connect a so-called "WiFi gaming adapter" to the Mini and you are wireless (and at your own "risk").
I agree completely with your clarification. Its all about support and reliability. A few MSOs like AT&T are deploying WiFi set top boxes but I haven't dug into the video quality and reliability questions. My guess is they aren't trying to stream high-quality MPEG-2 over WiFi.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:57 PM   #81
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I agree completely with your clarification. Its all about support and reliability. A few MSOs like AT&T are deploying WiFi set top boxes but I haven't dug into the video quality and reliability questions. My guess is they aren't trying to stream high-quality MPEG-2 over WiFi.
Agreed, in their case it is far more likely the video is H.264, which would be less than half the bandwidth.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:52 PM   #82
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Even MPEG2 is going to be no more than 19Mb/s. Any properly setup wireless N network will have zero issues streaming such a low bit rate. Of course the caveat is that it needs to be properly setup, and most are not.
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:05 PM   #83
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I see the mini as the PERFECT solution to the bedroom TV problem in a FiOS house where I'm currently using a small HTPC to stream live TV from an HDHomerun Prime. It means the HTPC can go away and I can have a simple solution AND get access to items on my XL4 to allow them to stream.

So not only do I care about Live TV, the mini is targeted 100% right at my needs.
At launch it's going to require you to dedicate a tuner from your XL4 to it, essentially turning your XL4 into a 3 tuner TiVo. Is that OK with you?

Personally I don't think many buyers are going to wan to sacrifice a recording tuner just so they have the option to watch Live TV in the other room. And this is why TiVo is limiting it to 4 tuner units, because with a 2 tuner unit it would have to become a 1 tuner unit and no one would go for that.

I'm not really interested in this until they get dynamic tuner allocation working. For now I'll keep my Premiere in the other room for streaming.

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Old 08-26-2012, 02:24 PM   #84
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At launch it's going to require you to dedicate a tuner from your XL4 to it, essentially turning your XL4 into a 3 tuner TiVo. Is that OK with you?
abSOlutely! I have no qualms at all sacrificing a tuner for this, the XL4 being a 3 tuner device will be fine by me.
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:27 PM   #85
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abSOlutely! I have no qualms at all sacrificing a tuner for this, the XL4 being a 3 tuner device will be fine by me.
I think you're the exception.

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Old 08-26-2012, 02:58 PM   #86
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I think you're the exception.

Dan
I am not. I have no issues giving up a tuner to put one of these in a kids room.

If there is no monthly fee with this and no cable card, it is perfect
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:39 PM   #87
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I just went back and re-read these very informative posts from MegaZone on the Mini.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/2...am-and-ip-stb/

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/2...ail-this-year/

It is worthwhile reading the Comments as well.

You will have the option of giving up zero, one, or two tuners on your Elite/XL4/Premiere 4 during setup. Those tuners will form a "pool" of live tuners for the Mini IP STB's on the network.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:56 PM   #88
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Even MPEG2 is going to be no more than 19Mb/s. Any properly setup wireless N network will have zero issues streaming such a low bit rate.
Exactly. With the operative words going "properly setup". But even the best of intentions can be foiled by bad interference or poorly designed equipment.

Quote:
Of course the caveat is that it needs to be properly setup, and most are not.
And not all wireless networks are "N" (none of mine at home or work are). "G" is about 22Mb/s under ideal conditions, which is pushing it for the highest of MPEG2 streams (usually OTA, since cable/satellite streams are often MUCH lower quality). "B" network? Forget it!
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:32 PM   #89
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I just went back and re-read these very informative posts from MegaZone on the Mini.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/2...am-and-ip-stb/

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/2...ail-this-year/

It is worthwhile reading the Comments as well.

You will have the option of giving up zero, one, or two tuners on your Elite/XL4/Premiere 4 during setup. Those tuners will form a "pool" of live tuners for the Mini IP STB's on the network.
So given that allocating zero tuners under "Allow Live TV on Other Devices" is an option it's even sillier to require 4-tuner unit as host during Mini setup.
I think Mini should default to not having Live TV unless you configure to allow it - and the Mini can show a screen explaining how to do it when no tuners are allocated for that function. Under that setup then even if TiVo still requires 4-tuner units only for Live TV functionality that will still satisfy a lot more people.
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:50 PM   #90
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abSOlutely! I have no qualms at all sacrificing a tuner for this, the XL4 being a 3 tuner device will be fine by me.
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I think you're the exception.
dude.. story of my life!
But I'm rarely the exception in a way that makes a device manufacture target me with a product.

I do think if you take the TCF folks out of the equation, the majority of more pedestrian XL4 users will rarely if ever need 4 tuners running at the same time.
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