Tivo and New FCC Law on cable cards

[klambert]

Before we switched to TIVO, I spent a 3 day weekend of frustration with a HTPC and cablecard tuner. The hardware installation and all that was easy enough, but no matter how many hits from comcast or checking that the card was correctly paired, I could never get all our channels. Finally, I decided that wasting a long weekend was enough.

If it's not worth it to someone who's done Windows tech support for a living for the last 15 years, I don't think it's going to appeal much to the masses.

I'd love to see MS make the software stable, but right now the rights management and mismatching hardware are just a disaster. Unfortunately, they be charging more for it in Windows 8, but I haven't heard that they're doing anything to improve it.

[mr.unnatural]

I've activated several cablecard tuners with no problems. The last one I did was a self-install that went smooth as silk. Sounds like your issues were more cablecard related than a PC problem. You never mentioned whether you tried a different card so chances are you got a bad one, which apparently isn't all that uncommon.

HTPCs and cablecard tuners are a niche product that won't appeal to the masses. It's definitely aimed at more of a geek crowd than your average TV viewer. They're not at all difficult to set up and use, unless you run into hardware issues, then all bets are off. They can be frustrating at times, but once you've worked out the kinks I think they're worth it in the end. I see PC problems as a challenge rather than a roadblock. I don't get challenged by my HTPC much these days as they've all been running fine for quite some time now.

[CybrFyre]

Originally Posted by saboken

The law that makes my DVR free to use I don't have to pay anyone to use the equipment I own, when you buy a Tivo you have to pay them a monthly service fee right I get everything TIVO has to offer but I don't have to pay to use my tuner except for the Cable card rental fee! The law has opened up a new market and my comment on the forum activity has nothing to do with summer most of the post are from 2008? that's a long summer LOL

In theory, yes... however, no one has really come out w. a cable card device rivaling the Tivo. Google TV might have a chance if it were to include such functionality, assuming they get the remote and the ui right (as well as the price point). Windows Media Center is Windows only and, IMHO, clunky.

So really, it's Tivo or nada.

And, even with the Tivo monthly service fee PLUS the cable card monthly service fee, I still save a few dollars a month over what I would pay for Time Warner's own DVR service. Plus I save the headache of using one of Time Warner's devices.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by CybrFyre

In theory, yes... however, no one has really come out w. a cable card device rivaling the Tivo. Google TV might have a chance if it were to include such functionality, assuming they get the remote and the ui right (as well as the price point). Windows Media Center is Windows only and, IMHO, clunky.

So really, it's Tivo or nada.

And, even with the Tivo monthly service fee PLUS the cable card monthly service fee, I still save a few dollars a month over what I would pay for Time Warner's own DVR service. Plus I save the headache of using one of Time Warner's devices.

Well, that's strictly a matter of opinion and one that a lot of HTPC users would disagree with. My HTPC with 7 cablecard tuners and 6 ATSC tuners puts my Tivos to shame. I was a loyal Tivo user for about 12 years until I started using Windows Media Center with a cablecard tuner. As far as DVR use, a WMC PC with cablecard tuner can do everything a Tivo can do and much more. I unplugged my lifetime S3 Tivo several months ago and nobody misses it.

If you want a cablecard tuner then right now Windows Media Center is your only choice until someone else decides to get a DVR app certified by Cable Labs. The Media Center Interface is just another menu hierarchy, just like Tivo's. Both setups have their pros and cons. Tivo has a lot of useless crap piled onto their OS that I have no interest in using. WMC is more streamlined, but can be modified to do just about anything you want. With Tivo you're pretty much limited to whatever Tivo, Inc., decides you ought to have.

[slowbiscuit]

No, it can't do everything a Tivo can - Tivo's WLs with advanced search are far better than WMC's limited WL capability, and in general Tivo is much more accurate in what it records for first run only shows. WMC will routinely record dupes of shows and the guide data is generally not as up to date.

As you said, both setups have their pros and cons but Tivo is a superior DVR IMO. WMC is much more useful for other capabilities including extenders and other types of media playback, but for basic DVR features Tivo is better.

[mr.unnatural]

It can do the majority of what a Tivo can do and many things the Tivo can't. I'll admit the search engine in a Tivo is superior, but since I rarely use the search feature it's of little importance to me. You have to decide for yourself what features matter to you. For my use, a WMC PC does everything I need it to do and far more than what my Tivo has to offer to fill my needs. FWIW, I set up a wishlist to record a concert I missed on HDNet about six months ago. The other day I looked at my recordings and WMC had detected a rebroadcast of the concert and picked it up automatically.

Guide data is beyond the control of either Tivo or WMC. You get what you get. Tivo doesn't generate the data, they get it from Tribune Media and pass it along to your DVR. Same goes for WMC, except it get the data from Zap2It. Both devices are at the mercy of the data provider. I can manually download guide data updates anytime I want in WMC. With a Tivo you can manually connect to the mothership and hope you'll get an update. Both devices automatically download data on a regular basis with no intervention required. Neither one gives you more than 14 days of data, and it's more like 12 days in reality. The issues you're describing with recording dupes is a product of the guide data, not the DVR. It only records what it perceives to be a new recording, same as a Tivo. I'd agree that Tribune Media may provide better data than Zap2it, but since it's free I can't really complain. Neither source will provide last minute schedule changes if the DVR hasn't connected since the data was updated.

If you're talking about use as a basic DVR, both devices are dead even, IMHO. You set up a season pass or a one-shot recording and it gets recorded. If there's a conflict then either device will reschedule the recording for the next airing of the program. I set up season passes in Media Center years ago for shows and I've never had to change them, nor have I ever missed a recording of a season pass program. It does everything I need as well as my Tivos ever did.

Every app that's on a Tivo is essentially available on a PC, as are countless others that Tivo doesn't have. Most of the crap that's on a Tivo is available on my smart phone. WMC even has a NetFlix app built-in and another to pick up internet programming. The real kicker is that I can play Blu-Rays and DVDs via my HTPC without having to convert anything or upload it to a Tivo. I simply rip it to my server and stream it to any room in the house with full HD audio. I literally have every media source available to me via one device. I don't even have to change inputs on my preamp/processor.

Tivos are great DVRs, but they have some serious limitations in a Home Theater system. A Tivo is just a component in a Home Theater whereas an HTPC can be the centerpiece for every type of media you can think of. An HTPC is far more than just a DVR.

[blackngold75]

mr. unnatural: I am a TiVo owner but have thought about building a dedicated HTPC. Without getting too specific on numbers, based on your experience how much is the hardware/software investment for a dedicated HTPC w/CableCard tuners compared to products from TiVo? Thanks.

[slowbiscuit]

I can answer that because I have both setups in my house - a 4-tuner Tivo with lifetime is around $750, a comparable 2TB 4-tuner HTPC around $700 (could be less). Cablecard, of course.

Where the HTPC gets cheaper is if you need more than one Tivo, because you can buy Xbox extenders for $200 or less but with Tivo need to spend around $500 for a lifetime Premiere. That may get a lot cheaper in the fall if Tivo actually releases their IP 'extender' box.

[mr.unnatural]

The cost of a HTPC all depends on what kind of setup you want. A cablecard tuner with 3-4 digital tuners will cost about $150-200, depending on the model and whether it's on sale. You can easily build a basic HTPC for $300 or even less with a standard case, but expect to pay a bit more if you want a component style case. Figure another $100 for a Windows 7 license. There are other apps you can buy for additional features, but many of the good ones are available for free, like MakeMKV and XBMC.

As slowbiscuit said, one benefit is that extenders are a whole lot cheaper than buying additional Tivos with a service plan. I'm not a huge fan of extenders, but I'll be in the upcoming Ceton Echo extender beta testing program in September so that may change. I currently use individual HTPCs at each TV with a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime triple tuner networked cablecard tuner to feed them TV signals. Since FIOS is implementing the copy once flag on some or all of their channels I may end up switching back to extenders in order to share recorded programs, although that really hasn't been an issue in my household.

A huge benefit is that with a PC you can add as many tuners as you like. WMC actually has a limit of four tuners of each type (digital cable, QAM, and ATSC), but the current Ceton InfiniTV4 drivers increase that limit to about 30, IIRC. There's also an app called TunerSalad Footlong that bumps up the limit to 12 tuners of each type.

Another plus is that there's no magic involved if you want to increase your storage capacity. No expensive drives to purchase from Weaknees or any of the other opportunists out there. Just grab the drive of your choice off the shelf and install it like any other hard drive in a PC. You also don't have to buy a special Tivo if you want DVD playback.

If you really want to try building an HTPC, try installing a tuner card in an existing Windows 7 PC and run through Media Center setup. See if you like the interface and take it for a test run. This way you don't have to spend a fortune just to see if you like it. Worst case is you'll have to put the tuner up for sale on ebay. If you find it's something you'd like to pursue then build one for yourself. Check out the Home Theater Computer section at the AVSForums for guides on building your own HTPC with recommended hardware listings. There's a guy there named Assassin that has a blog with lots of guides for configuring an HTPC with just about anything you want (the link is in his signature and his posts aren't hard to find). I think he charges something like $25 to join, but the info he provides is well worth the cost of admission.

[lessd]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

The cost of a HTPC all depends on what kind of setup you want. A cablecard tuner with 3-4 digital tuners will cost about $150-200, depending on the model and whether it's on sale. You can easily build a basic HTPC for $300 or even less with a standard case, but expect to pay a bit more if you want a component style case. Figure another $100 for a Windows 7 license. There are other apps you can buy for additional features, but many of the good ones are available for free, like MakeMKV and XBMC.

As slowbiscuit said, one benefit is that extenders are a whole lot cheaper than buying additional Tivos with a service plan. I'm not a huge fan of extenders, but I'll be in the upcoming Ceton Echo extender beta testing program in September so that may change. I currently use individual HTPCs at each TV with a SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime triple tuner networked cablecard tuner to feed them TV signals. Since FIOS is implementing the copy once flag on some or all of their channels I may end up switching back to extenders in order to share recorded programs, although that really hasn't been an issue in my household.

A huge benefit is that with a PC you can add as many tuners as you like. WMC actually has a limit of four tuners of each type (digital cable, QAM, and ATSC), but the current Ceton InfiniTV4 drivers increase that limit to about 30, IIRC. There's also an app called TunerSalad Footlong that bumps up the limit to 12 tuners of each type.

Another plus is that there's no magic involved if you want to increase your storage capacity. No expensive drives to purchase from Weaknees or any of the other opportunists out there. Just grab the drive of your choice off the shelf and install it like any other hard drive in a PC. You also don't have to buy a special Tivo if you want DVD playback.

If you really want to try building an HTPC, try installing a tuner card in an existing Windows 7 PC and run through Media Center setup. See if you like the interface and take it for a test run. This way you don't have to spend a fortune just to see if you like it. Worst case is you'll have to put the tuner up for sale on ebay. If you find it's something you'd like to pursue then build one for yourself. Check out the Home Theater Computer section at the AVSForums for guides on building your own HTPC with recommended hardware listings. There's a guy there named Assassin that has a blog with lots of guides for configuring an HTPC with just about anything you want (the link is in his signature and his posts aren't hard to find). I think he charges something like $25 to join, but the info he provides is well worth the cost of admission.

How many HTPC systems use about 20 watts 24/7 as the TP does ? One must maintain a computer, no problem for some but my wife would nuts, she has enough problems with her laptop computer.
HTPC is good for some people, I have a Vantage Q computer lighting system for my home, I love it but most people think a simple on/off switch is good enough, and almost never gives one problems, but I am into my computer lighting system and like the idea that it is just a few program steps to change the definition of any switch in my home, each to their own.

[ggieseke]

I have 4 S2DTs on DirecTV, and since January I added an HTCP with 2 dual-tuner HD HomeRuns for antenna. The HTPC has performed flawlessly and now all of my OTA season passes are on it. The next step will probably be to add an InfiniTV 4 and switch to Comcast.

P.S. Zap2it is just Tribune Media's web interface. The guide data that WMC gets from there is exactly the same as TiVo.

[takeshi]

Originally Posted by lessd

How many HTPC systems use about 20 watts 24/7 as the TP does ? One must maintain a computer, no problem for some but my wife would nuts, she has enough problems with her laptop computer.
HTPC is good for some people, I have a Vantage Q computer lighting system for my home, I love it but most people think a simple on/off switch is good enough, and almost never gives one problems, but I am into my computer lighting system and like the idea that it is just a few program steps to change the definition of any switch in my home, each to their own.

Precisely why mr.unnatural said:

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

You have to decide for yourself what features matter to you.

Neither option is one-size-fits-all but that's pretty typical with any selection of options on any topic.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by lessd

How many HTPC systems use about 20 watts 24/7 as the TP does ? One must maintain a computer, no problem for some but my wife would nuts, she has enough problems with her laptop computer.

Sounds like my wife. I made an attempt to get the family to use extenders when I first started using Media Center and it failed miserably. The main PC was having issues and it ground the entire viewing household to a halt when it crashed. The issues have long since been resolved but I had to resort to going back to using a set-top box for the bedroom and the Tivo went into the family room. The STB is still in the bedroom, but the Tivo has been replaced with a separate standalone HTPC and the wife has actually warmed up to it. Of course, the minute something doesn't go right she starts pressing every button she can find and totally hoses things up. She does not get along well with technology. She thought the vacuum cleaner was broken because the brush wasn't spinning until I showed her the big button on the front for turning the brush on and off.

[lessd]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Sounds like my wife. I made an attempte to get the family to use extenders when I first started using Media Center and it failed miserably. The main PC was having issues and it ground the entire viewing household to a halt when it crashed. The issues have long since been resolved but I had to resort to going back to using a set-top box for the bedroom and the Tivo went into the family room. The STB is still in the bedroom, but the Tivo has been replaced with a separate standalone HTPC and the wife has actually warmed up to it. Of course, the minute something doesn't go right she starts pressing every button she can find and totally hoses things up. She does not get along well with technology. She thought the vacuum cleaner was broken because the brush wasn't spinning until I showed her the big button on the front for turning the brush on and off.

Wives and TiVo do go together better than most other options.

[jrm01]

The OP is right that there are many less expensive options for DVR function than TiVo.

Just like when I want to go over and visit my daughter. I can ride my less expensive bicycle or my BMW convertable. I just prefer the BMW.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by lessd

Wives and TiVo do go together better than most other options.

The wife wouldn't know any difference as long as it's working. A Tivo in a reboot loop will attract just as much ire as a PC that's crashed. The wife used to get pissed when a Tivo message would pop up on the screen and prevent her from watching her favorite channels. Showing her how to get rid of the message and get to live TV was pointless because she'd forget what I told her the next time it would occur.

Originally Posted by jrm01

The OP is right that there are many less expensive options for DVR function than TiVo.

Just like when I want to go over and visit my daughter. I can ride my less expensive bicycle or my BMW convertable. I just prefer the BMW.

If that's what you think the discussion is about then you missed the point. While there are less expensive options, some options are also considered better than a Tivo. Of course, that's only the opinion of those enjoying the extra benefits of an HTPC vs. a Tivo.

[lessd]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

The wife wouldn't know any difference as long as it's working. A Tivo in a reboot loop will attract just as much ire as a PC that's crashed. The wife used to get pissed when a Tivo message would pop up on the screen and prevent her from watching her favorite channels. Showing her how to get rid of the message and get to live TV was pointless because she'd forget what I told her the next time it would occur.


If that's what you think the discussion is about then you missed the point. While there are less expensive options, some options are also considered better than a Tivo. Of course, that's only the opinion of those enjoying the extra benefits of an HTPC vs. a Tivo.

The argument is not winnable by anybody, some things are better for over 90% of the folks, take a car vs a horse, in 1915 the horse was most likely in the 90% part, now it most likely in the 10% part, laptops taking over for the desktop PC is another example, Computer TV taking over for the stand alone DVR may never happen at the 90% level, people vote with their $ on what they think is best for them. People are not correct all the time, but over time the better product will win out.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by lessd

People are not correct all the time, but over time the better product will win out.

I'd argue that the more popular or commercially successful product will win out, not necessarily the best one. People want convenience over quality these days. Beta was a clearly superior VCR yet VHS took over the market (people could record up to six hours on a single VHS cassette vs. 4.5 hours for Beta, even though Beta provided a better picture). Blu-Ray is vastly superior to streaming but it seems that most people would rather stream lower quality audio and video over the internet than deal with physical discs. I still don't understand why anyone would want to watch video on any kind of portable device that requires a magnifying glass to see the image.

FYI - ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs were better than Tivos in their day. ReplayTV stretched the envelope too soon and paid dearly for their innovative thinking. UltimateTV was another Microsoft product that was abandoned (Microsoft has about as much faith in new products as network TV executives have in new shows. If they don't get the ratings they expect right out of the gate they get axed.)

[lessd]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I'd argue that the more popular or commercially successful product will win out, not necessarily the best one. People want convenience over quality these days. Beta was a clearly superior VCR yet VHS took over the market (people could record up to six hours on a single VHS cassette vs. 4.5 hours for Beta, even though Beta provided a better picture). Blu-Ray is vastly superior to streaming but it seems that most people would rather stream lower quality audio and video over the internet than deal with physical discs. I still don't understand why anyone would want to watch video on any kind of portable device that requires a magnifying glass to see the image.

FYI - ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs were better than Tivos in their day. ReplayTV stretched the envelope too soon and paid dearly for their innovative thinking. UltimateTV was another Microsoft product that was abandoned (Microsoft has about as much faith in new products as network TV executives have in new shows. If they don't get the ratings they expect right out of the gate they get axed.)

I agree I could have used a more meaningful word than the word better as being the product that makes it, I was not referring to quality by using that word better, I was referring to exactly what you said as what makes a "commercially successful product" Quality is preserved differently by different people, BET did give one a better picture but it was more important to me to get the longer record time so I purchased the VHS system, for me it was better, but not as high picture quality, a trade off I made and so did most other people, so VHS won.
I guess one could make a stainless steel mousetrap with Wi-Fi network connection, so you could look at your computer to see what traps got a mouse, which one is better, a $0.25 wood trap or a stainless steel network connected trap for $40 ??

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by lessd

I guess one could make a stainless steel mousetrap with Wi-Fi network connection, so you could look at your computer to see what traps got a mouse, which one is better, a $0.25 wood trap or a stainless steel network connected trap for $40 ??

I'm not sure how the discussion digressed to mouse traps and bicycles vs. BMWs. The point is that both a Tivo and a WMC PC can record TV shows with the same picture quality and same basic features. It all boils down to what features you want. A better analogy would be a PC vs. a Mac. PCs can be configured any way you want. Macs (the Tivo in this comparison) is considered a better computer by some, but only comes in a fixed configuration set by the manufacturer. They work great for what they're designed to do but tend to be limited when it comes to adding extra hardware or features. Macs only recently got the ability to play Blu-Rays but are still considered a poor choice as a Home Theater PC.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Tivos are great DVRs, but they're limited in what they can do. They're not PCs, but just one part of an overall entertainment system. WMC PCs can do just about everything a Tivo can do and far more. Tivos just do some things better (i.e., searches and wishlists), but PCs can still do them adequately for most people as well as provide features that a Tivo can't (more than four digital cable tuners plus OTA reception with unlimited storage, automatic commercial detection and skipping, and the ability to stream multiple audio and video formats to any room in the house is a significant game changer IMHO). Of course, the extra features a PC can provide may not be of interest to some so a Tivo is just right for them. It's whatever floats your boat.

[nrc]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

FYI - ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs were better than Tivos in their day.

Your opinion, which not many people seem to agree with.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by nrc

Your opinion, which not many people seem to agree with.

It's clear that you don't, which is perfectly fine by me. I must have missed the poll you started to get everyone else's opinion on the subject. Can you please provide me with the link to it?

Both DVRs had vastly superior UI's, IMHO. I seem to recall that the biggest complaint most early Tivo users had was that the UI was clunky. It took Tivo almost a decade before they listened to their customers and decided to upgrade it. ReplayTV pioneered file sharing between DVRs (fact). The original SA Tivos took up to 3 hours or more to run setup (fact). I could configure my ReplayTV for use in less than 20 minutes (fact). Please note that any comments about these DVRs is based on several years of hands-on use and side-by-side comparisons with Tivos available during the same time period. Obviously anything I post with regards to them is strictly my opinion unless otherwise stated.

Personally, I just preferred the way each DVR worked in comparison to my Tivos. ReplayTV eventually deteriorated into a subscription-based service, like Tivo, which is no doubt one of the reasons for its demise (the original models included lifetime service in the purchase price). UltimateTV was eventually abandoned by Microsoft after only being on the market for about a year and a half, DirecTV charged double the DVR fee for using it, and they had a terrible track record for reliability. It was doomed to failure from the start.

I understand that not many people here would agree with my stated opinion because they're mostly Tivo fans. Had I posted a similar statement in either an UltimateTV or ReplayTV forum about Tivos I'd expect a similar response.

[lessd]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

It's clear that you don't, which is perfectly fine by me. I must have missed the poll you started to get everyone else's opinion on the subject. Can you please provide me with the link to it?

Both DVRs had vastly superior UI's, IMHO. I seem to recall that the biggest complaint most early Tivo users had was that the UI was clunky. It took Tivo almost a decade before they listened to their customers and decided to upgrade it. ReplayTV pioneered file sharing between DVRs (fact). The original SA Tivos took up to 3 hours or more to run setup (fact). I could configure my ReplayTV for use in less than 20 minutes (fact). Please note that any comments about these DVRs is based on several years of hands-on use and side-by-side comparisons with Tivos available during the same time period. Obviously anything I post with regards to them is strictly my opinion unless otherwise stated.

Personally, I just preferred the way each DVR worked in comparison to my Tivos. ReplayTV eventually deteriorated into a subscription-based service, like Tivo, which is no doubt one of the reasons for its demise (the original models included lifetime service in the purchase price). UltimateTV was eventually abandoned by Microsoft after only being on the market for about a year and a half, DirecTV charged double the DVR fee for using it, and they had a terrible track record for reliability. It was doomed to failure from the start.

I understand that not many people here would agree with my stated opinion because they're mostly Tivo fans. Had I posted a similar statement in either an UltimateTV or ReplayTV forum about Tivos I'd expect a similar response.

I think what you are missing in your argument is that a commercially successful product has lots of moving parts such a cost, reliably, usable, etc. TiVo as a branded DVR made it more than other branded DVRs and PC DVRs but the competition from cable co DVRs makes it almost impossible for TiVo to be another Apple. Hassle factor plays a big part in people decisions on what if any DVR they want, and the Cable co DVR has the least hassle, as the cable co installs and gives you a lifetime in your house warranty on the DVR, one does pay a price for that convenience, not so great UI, no hard drive upgrades and the lack of some other TiVo features that some people may want, and the cost may be greater. If TiVo gets more MSOs to use the TiVo unit, that would be good for TiVo as a co.

[GreenMonkey]

We barely use our Tivo for anything except recording network shows (lifetime TivoHD on antenna) but there's no way I'm trying to get the babysitter or stepmom to try to use a Windows Media Center box for TV.

And I'm running a HTPC - I'm running XBMC downstairs on a homebuilt Windows 7 PC - I love it, but that's for its ability to play whatever video I throw at it, run Hyperspin and old game emulators, etc.

Throw in the occasional Windows weirdness (occasionally Windows + HDMI sync doesn't play nice with my receiver, requiring a power cycle of the TV/receiver) and it's just not a DVR replacement for the average person.

[mattack]

Originally Posted by jrm01

The OP is right that there are many less expensive options for DVR function than TiVo.

Just like when I want to go over and visit my daughter. I can ride my less expensive bicycle or my BMW convertable. I just prefer the BMW.

I think BMWs are a big waste of money.. but you're missing the point.. Tivos can be CHEAPER than the cable DVRs over time (amortizing lifetime), but most people don't realize that.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

We barely use our Tivo for anything except recording network shows (lifetime TivoHD on antenna) but there's no way I'm trying to get the babysitter or stepmom to try to use a Windows Media Center box for TV.

Nor would I expect anyone would. It's definitely a niche product aimed at those that are more tech savvy. As I stated previously, most consumers are all about convenience. HTPCs are more for hobbyists that like to tinker and create something that does things over and above the humdrum consumer products.

And I'm running a HTPC - I'm running XBMC downstairs on a homebuilt Windows 7 PC - I love it, but that's for its ability to play whatever video I throw at it, run Hyperspin and old game emulators, etc.

Exactly. It's got the unique ability to run just about anything you want on it. XBMC is the best interface I've found for playing all of my video formats.

Throw in the occasional Windows weirdness (occasionally Windows + HDMI sync doesn't play nice with my receiver, requiring a power cycle of the TV/receiver) and it's just not a DVR replacement for the average person.

I get that too on occasion, but I think it's mostly an EDID issue or HDCP related. You can blame that on the folks that developed the HDCP standard which does absolutely nothing to benefit the consumer.

Originally Posted by mattack

I think BMWs are a big waste of money.. but you're missing the point.. Tivos can be CHEAPER than the cable DVRs over time (amortizing lifetime), but most people don't realize that.

Then you're missing the point of a BMW or any other performance car. It's all about being one with the machine. BMWs are for drivers. Other cars fall into the commuter category. You can either commute or you can drive. Personally, I like to drive. Give me a car with decent handling and horsepower with a stick and I'm a happy camper. Automatics are for wussies.

The comparison someone made of a Tivo to a BMW was way off the mark and completely ludicrous. I see it more as a Toyota Camry with a state of the art navigation system. Highly dependable and it can get you where you want to go with ease. An HTPC is more like an SUV. You can still get all the bells and whistles but it has far more utility and a decent amount of performance.

[mattack]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Both DVRs had vastly superior UI's, IMHO. I seem to recall that the biggest complaint most early Tivo users had was that the UI was clunky. It took Tivo almost a decade before they listened to their customers and decided to upgrade it. ReplayTV pioneered file sharing between DVRs (fact). The original SA Tivos took up to 3 hours or more to run setup (fact). I could configure my ReplayTV for use in less than 20 minutes (fact). Please note that any comments about these DVRs is based on several years of hands-on use and side-by-side comparisons with Tivos available during the same time period. Obviously anything I post with regards to them is strictly my opinion unless otherwise stated.

I'm seriously asking.. Besides the setup time (heck, they still take a long time to setup, including the guided setup part of course), can you explain what was "clunky"?

I've said this in other threads, but heck, I think the S1 experience (which, yes, I realize advanced from what it was at the very beginning) is still LESS clunky than S3 Tivos (my experience is mostly with S3 & TivoHD, though I now 'drive' a friend's XS4 sometimes). In other words, the S1 has more "polish" and just finished UI, whereas *for speed reasons* (which I agree with actually, if the underlying implementation can't be fixed), you get hokey things like the list filling in live, rather than just BAM the UI is either not there or there, which it is like on S1.. (which yes, means you have to wait ~20 seconds for now playing to fill up).

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Then you're missing the point of a BMW or any other performance car. It's all about being one with the machine. BMWs are for drivers. Other cars fall into the commuter category. You can either commute or you can drive. Personally, I like to drive. Give me a car with decent handling and horsepower with a stick and I'm a happy camper. Automatics are for wussies.

I'll blow your mind then. I have an automatic Miata.. (Yes, I probably would use the "shift paddles" like more recent automatics have, for manual-ish shifting.)

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by mattack

I'm seriously asking.. Besides the setup time (heck, they still take a long time to setup, including the guided setup part of course), can you explain what was "clunky"?

The early versions of the UI were godawful slow and not as intuitive as later versions.

I've said this in other threads, but heck, I think the S1 experience (which, yes, I realize advanced from what it was at the very beginning) is still LESS clunky than S3 Tivos (my experience is mostly with S3 & TivoHD, though I now 'drive' a friend's XS4 sometimes). In other words, the S1 has more "polish" and just finished UI, whereas *for speed reasons* (which I agree with actually, if the underlying implementation can't be fixed), you get hokey things like the list filling in live, rather than just BAM the UI is either not there or there, which it is like on S1.. (which yes, means you have to wait ~20 seconds for now playing to fill up).

I've owned and operated most versions of the Tivo since it was introduced over a dozen years ago except the DVD models and the HD models later than the S3. This includes both SA and DirecTV models. It wasn't until the OS was updated in the S2 models that the UI became faster and more responsive. The only way to speed it up in the S1 models was to use a cachecard.

The main thing that attracted me to Tivo in the first place was the ability to hack them for more than just increased storage space. You could add larger drives to both the ReplayTV and the UltimateTV DVRs, but that was about all you could do. Tivo has made it increasingly difficult to hack later models to add software features and is now making it difficult to even add larger hard drives. They've taken away my only reason to stick with them. I finally decommissioned my remaining S3 and returned the cablecards to Verizon yesterday.

I'll blow your mind then. I have an automatic Miata.. (Yes, I probably would use the "shift paddles" like more recent automatics have, for manual-ish shifting.)

No offense, but that's a total chick car. Every Miata owner I've ever met is a girl. I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation. Shift paddles just don't give you the same experience as a manual transmission.

[shwru980r]

The Tivo is easier and cheaper to troubleshoot if something goes wrong. You can just buy a cheap second Tivo without service and swap hard drive and/or power supply to get the malfunctioning Tivo working.

[tneison]

As someone who just switched from an HTPC w/ 3 Xbox extenders to Tivo let me submit my two cents. HTPC is a good to great option, if you are lucky enough to have stability. In my case the variables that go into a successful HTPC set up kept causing too many interruptions. The one constant was Ceton provided great customer support. But just about every week I'd have some type of issue such as the dreaded 'subscription required' message, or the 'tuner not available', the update play ready message, etc. all from different causes that eventually I'd be able to fix. But when you work on IT crap all day when you come home in my case at least the last thing I wanted to deal with when watching the news is running a diagnostic tool and submitting a log file to tech support, having to re-run media center setup, etc.

The main advantage to Tivo is the simplicity. You put the box where you want it, boot it up, and after the typical cableCARD activation dread it is just stable, at least for me. My Comcast signals which are on the weaker side and caused constant issues w/ the HTPC aren't a problem on the Tivo (and I didn't change anything in terms of my cabling or splitters). The channel changes are much faster on a Tivo, and overall I like the interface more than WMC. What I think is the best advantage of Tivo is the iPad app.

The main thing I miss from WMC is the commercial skip programs I used, I hate having to grab for the remote now to fast forward.

Like others have said there are pros and cons to each, but in my case what I gave up in the cost savings of an HTPC I gain in stability.