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Old 06-20-2012, 05:03 PM   #91
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Just to set lrhorer off again, it seems to me that those who are green (i.e. trying to save every last bit of energy usage) would like a zero buffer option or something like that.
A mode in which a non-recording, non-playing TiVo isn't buffering at all and is in the lowest power down mode waiting for (a) a show to record, or (b) user interaction.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:38 PM   #92
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A mode in which a non-recording, non-playing TiVo isn't buffering at all and is in the lowest power down mode waiting for (a) a show to record, or (b) user interaction.
Thats what i want
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:47 PM   #93
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Wow, tough room! I don't see why some people can't wish for choices that would work better for THEM with THEIR equipment. I'm fine with the 30 minutes, for the most part, but I certainly don't see a reason to begrudge others their needs.

I wouldn't want a forced increase of buffer time, but choices are always good.
No one is claiming that choices are a bad idea.

No one is begrudging anyone anything.

The point that is being missed is that the inevitable result of using live buffers is taking a longer time to watch less TV. One can say or believe one wants something, but when that thing inevitably results in uinintended consequences, then no matter what one believes, one doesn't actually want what one thinks one wants.

Let me cut to the chase, however, and be done with it. Opinions, analyses, wants and desire are all irrelevant to the original question at hand.

Those who say they want an extended buffer have presicely four options:

1. Continue to moan and complain and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.

2. Suffer in silence and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.

3. Abandon the Tivo.

4. Investigate the things others of us have suggested and maybe - just maybe - find the buffer is neither as necessary or as desirable as one originally believed. Then, if in the long run it turns out not to be true, one can always revisit number 1, 2, or 3.

In the mean time, those of us who have taken the small amount of mental effort required by #4 are very happy with what we have. How many of you on the other side of the fence are happy with #1 or #3?
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:56 PM   #94
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Thank you! I had no idea that despite using 5 different models of DVRs over the past 13 years, I was but an idiotic "duffer", as you say. Why, just look at my meager post count! I guess I must not be as dumb as that person with 11 posts you pointed out earlier, but I'm still like 100 times dumber than you. Well, I'm not sure about that - numbers are not my strong suit. BTW, I have had people call me an "engineer" but in real life I just write code and I've never even driven a train so I'm at a complete loss to explain that one. (?)

So, can I please hire you to come to my house and set up my Tivos properly so I never have to be stuck watching sub-optimal TV again? If you could teach me the secret of how to be so absolutely sure about my way of thinking that I know for certain that it applies to every other living person, I'd gladly pay extra.

Thanks again!
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:43 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeTaxpayer View Post
Just to set lrhorer off again, it seems to me that those who are green (i.e. trying to save every last bit of energy usage) would like a zero buffer option or something like that.
A mode in which a non-recording, non-playing TiVo isn't buffering at all and is in the lowest power down mode waiting for (a) a show to record, or (b) user interaction.
Well, it's probable that spinning a drive up and down that often is bad for the drive. And isn't it "greener" to have the drive last longer than to save a miniscule amount of power? Plus, a net connected TiVo checks in fairly often with the mother ship. OTOH, even if the drive were still spinning, it might save a little wear and tear on the head actuator mechanism if weren't recording. I think this is exactly what the old DTiVos did when placed in "standby".
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:13 AM   #96
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Well, it's probable that spinning a drive up and down that often is bad for the drive. And isn't it "greener" to have the drive last longer than to save a miniscule amount of power? Plus, a net connected TiVo checks in fairly often with the mother ship. OTOH, even if the drive were still spinning, it might save a little wear and tear on the head actuator mechanism if weren't recording. I think this is exactly what the old DTiVos did when placed in "standby".
What do you mean? The drive never stops spinning so long as the box is connected to power.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:51 AM   #97
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What do you mean? The drive never stops spinning so long as the box is connected to power.
He was replying to my "feature suggestion" that one option for the TiVo Software team is for a "green" mode that powers down when not in use. (I haven't measured my Premiers' power draw yet)
If one records and watches 2 hr a day, the TiVo would be running 24 hours but used for 4. So whatever the power draw is now, it would be close to 1/6 in that mode.

As is often the case, lpwcomp points to a fact, the start/stop of a drive is more wear and tear on the drive.

I counter with the wear on all components inside the TiVo. Electronics lifetime is related as well to the number of hours they are in use, and processors in particular run hotter when in full use than in the low power (idle, sleep,snooze,doze, whatever) modes. So it's an exercise for the reader to understand the tradeoffs.

Easier to replace drive than most anything on the mother board. (IMHO)
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:02 PM   #98
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As is often the case, lpwcomp points to a fact, the start/stop of a drive is more wear and tear on the drive.

I counter with the wear on all components inside the TiVo. Electronics lifetime is related as well to the number of hours they are in use, and processors in particular run hotter when in full use than in the low power (idle, sleep,snooze,doze, whatever) modes. So it's an exercise for the reader to understand the tradeoffs.

Easier to replace drive than most anything on the mother board. (IMHO)
As is often the case, people seize on one part of a post and ignore the rest.

I will counter with:

1. that I also pointed out that:
a. if the intent is to be "green", replacing the hard drive more often is wasting more resources than you save.
b. a net connected TiVo would have to wake up quite often to contact the mother ship

2. a TiVo mb rarely fails.

3. While the drive is the most easily replaced component, it is also the one most likely to fail anyway.

I will also add that if you put all of the tuners on channels you don't receive, it probably stops recording, thus emulating the behavior of the old DTiVos.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:40 PM   #99
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As is often the case, people seize on one part of a post and ignore the rest.
Sorry. Really. Yes, I focused on the tradeoff I saw. Your points are well taken, regardless of each and every point, my proposal has flaws.

There are government regulations (overseas, I know for sure) that non-used systems (say a clock radio that's off) can only draw so much power. I starting with the premiss that the buffering TiVo would take more power than the lowest mode one can imagine.

My 'often the case' wasn't sarcasm, by the way. You pointed out something I hadn't considered, and it would be pretty bad to have drives failing at 10X the rate due to an attempt to save power. Obviously the other points need addressing as well. No green TiVo for me today.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:54 PM   #100
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My 'often the case' wasn't sarcasm, by the way. You pointed out something I hadn't considered, and it would be pretty bad to have drives failing at 10X the rate due to an attempt to save power. Obviously the other points need addressing as well. No green TiVo for me today.
Sorry if I seemed a bit sensitive. I've been dealing with other posters in other threads who do exactly what I was complaining about.

Actually, the main reason for my post was to avoid making one (that I actually composed) that was an indirect response to a certain other poster on this thread who shall remain nameless. I decided to take my own advice and ignore him.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:05 PM   #101
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OK, who let Sheldon get a TiVo?
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:17 PM   #102
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Sorry if I seemed a bit sensitive.
Understood. Appreciate the note.

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I decided to take my own advice and ignore him.
I'm with you. And I'm open to ideas, even those that prove mine to be a 'fail.' For example - I request my TiVo to record a show remotely, and get an email within an hour on average that that TiVo acknowledged the request. If it can't phone home frequently, this fast feature fails. Now, that's bad, but we probably agree reducing MTBF on the drives kills my idea even faster. Good to talk to you.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:18 PM   #103
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OK, who let Sheldon get a TiVo?
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:29 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeTaxpayer

He was replying to my "feature suggestion" that one option for the TiVo Software team is for a "green" mode that powers down when not in use. (I haven't measured my Premiers' power draw yet)
If one records and watches 2 hr a day, the TiVo would be running 24 hours but used for 4. So whatever the power draw is now, it would be close to 1/6 in that mode.

As is often the case, lpwcomp points to a fact, the start/stop of a drive is more wear and tear on the drive.

I counter with the wear on all components inside the TiVo. Electronics lifetime is related as well to the number of hours they are in use, and processors in particular run hotter when in full use than in the low power (idle, sleep,snooze,doze, whatever) modes. So it's an exercise for the reader to understand the tradeoffs.

Easier to replace drive than most anything on the mother board. (IMHO)
An Elite/XL4 draws around 22 watts. A two tuner Premiere draws arourd 24 watts.

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:04 PM   #105
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An Elite/XL4 draws around 22 watts. A two tuner Premiere draws around 24 watts.

Sent from my HTC ReZound
22W = $28.91/yr at 15 cents the KWH. Hardly worth going after the $20/yr one 'might' squeeze out. That's amazing since I'm looking at a series 2 single tuner showing 23W. I guess that's almost $30/yr in favor of the 4 tuner over 2 2 tuner models. Plus outlet fees, yada yada.

This concludes my stupid green tangent. Thanks to all who participated.
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:39 AM   #106
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Such a long thread over something that has little value. I'd hate to see TiVo waste time on this. However, they eventually caved on the FSI so it wouldn't surprise me.

I guess if such a feature has to be forced down everyone then at the very least make it configurable. I don't want to waste my hard drive space with needed size that would need to accompany the larger buffers.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:52 AM   #107
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Yes Tivo, I want longer buffer. Please make it 90 minutes or at least 60 minutes.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:31 PM   #108
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Those who say they want an extended buffer have presicely four options:

1. Continue to moan and complain and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.

2. Suffer in silence and hope TiVo comes around to their way of thinking.

3. Abandon the Tivo.

4. Investigate the things others of us have suggested and maybe - just maybe - find the buffer is neither as necessary or as desirable as one originally believed. Then, if in the long run it turns out not to be true, one can always revisit number 1, 2, or 3.
5. Hack their TiVo to enable the longer buffer. Far more of a pain that it used to be, but I think it's still possible (may require a hardware prom modification)
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:06 PM   #109
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5. Hack their TiVo to enable the longer buffer. Far more of a pain that it used to be, but I think it's still possible (may require a hardware prom modification)
AFAIK there is no hardware modification for the Premiere that would allow for hacks.

Last edited by magnus : 06-22-2012 at 11:29 PM. Reason: correcting sentence
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:23 PM   #110
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Yes Tivo, I want longer buffer. Please make it 90 minutes or at least 60 minutes.
If TiVo spent money doing that how many new subs would TiVo get?, would people rush out and purchase a new TiVo now, because it has a bigger buffer? I know a subset of experienced TiVo users may like a longer buffer, it would not be a negative if it did come about, but most TiVo users (not on this form) don't use much of the extra stuff TiVo now has, they just record and watch, many just have one TiVo so MRS or MRV itself has no meaning for them.
Someone should do a poll about how many TiVo users use anything extra beyond MRV and MRS, such a You-tube (I have used it three times) Pictures from my computer to my TiVo (I have used it once) music (I never used that from my TiVo), purchase movie tickets (never for me) and i could go on and on. I sure some people use these features many times, but what % of users do that.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:10 PM   #111
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Someone should do a poll about how many TiVo users use anything extra beyond MRV and MRS, such a You-tube (I have used it three times) Pictures from my computer to my TiVo (I have used it once) music (I never used that from my TiVo), purchase movie tickets (never for me) and i could go on and on. I sure some people use these features many times, but what % of users do that.
You are right. Probably a small fraction.
I happen to like using the TiVo to stream Pandora, and while around the basement tune in my 'station,' turn on the Stereo, turn the TV back off and let the TiVo stream Pandora. Probably me and 3 other guys.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:44 AM   #112
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You are right. Probably a small fraction.
I happen to like using the TiVo to stream Pandora, and while around the basement tune in my 'station,' turn on the Stereo, turn the TV back off and let the TiVo stream Pandora. Probably me and 3 other guys.
I think many of us on this forum have allot more "stuff" attached to our TVs than the typical household, so using our TiVo's for anything other than a DVR really isn't necessary.

I do stream Pandora from my TiVo but I actually have 3 TiVos and 5 other devices (Roku, Netgear NeoTV, Logitech Revue, Panasonic Blu-Ray Player, & a HTPC) attached to my Receiver that can stream Pandora plus the receiver itself can also stream Pandora.

Honestly if TiVo didn't do anything other than be a good DVR I wouldn't notice.
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:39 AM   #113
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Those who say they want an extended buffer have presicely four options:

1. Continue to moan...
2. Suffer in silence...
3. Abandon the Tivo...
4. Investigate...things...

Then, if ...it turns out not to be true, one can always revisit number 1, 2, or 3.
There is at least one other easy option if a user can live with 480i. Send the output of the TiVo to an old ReplayTV with its disc sized buffer. But for most, why bother?
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:48 PM   #114
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You are right. Probably a small fraction.
I happen to like using the TiVo to stream Pandora, and while around the basement tune in my 'station,' turn on the Stereo, turn the TV back off and let the TiVo stream Pandora. Probably me and 3 other guys.
I must be one of the 3, because we use Pandora every weekend on the patio speakers while we're in the pool.

As far as wanting a longer buffer, I would definitely like that. I do not use Suggestions and never have as I feel like it's a waste of time dealing with loads of shows I'll never, ever watch, and absolutely does not mean that I am using my TiVo less efficiently than those that do (to suggest such a thing is both arrogant and incorrect). So, my TiVo Elite is not recording a good deal of the time, and there have been many occasions where I'd like to back up and watch what happens to be on.

That happened just today. My wife and I got home from a movie and Olympic diving was on NBC. It sure would have been cool to be able to back up to the beginning of that rather than only 30 minutes.

To whoever feels that I should have taken the time to plan ahead and record this instead of just running into it on Live TV, I invite you to remain silent on the matter.

Oh, and I'm also an engineer. So there is that. I don't feel that my profession entitles me to elevate my opinions above those of others. What a pathetic joke.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:06 PM   #115
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I must be one of the 3, because we use Pandora every weekend on the patio speakers while we're in the pool.

As far as wanting a longer buffer, I would definitely like that. I do not use Suggestions and never have as I feel like it's a waste of time dealing with loads of shows I'll never, ever watch, and absolutely does not mean that I am using my TiVo less efficiently than those that do (to suggest such a thing is both arrogant and incorrect). So, my TiVo Elite is not recording a good deal of the time, and there have been many occasions where I'd like to back up and watch what happens to be on.

That happened just today. My wife and I got home from a movie and Olympic diving was on NBC. It sure would have been cool to be able to back up to the beginning of that rather than only 30 minutes.

To whoever feels that I should have taken the time to plan ahead and record this instead of just running into it on Live TV, I invite you to remain silent on the matter.

Oh, and I'm also an engineer. So there is that. I don't feel that my profession entitles me to elevate my opinions above those of others. What a pathetic joke.
Actually since there is the ability to plan better then I'd say that this feature could wait for several others that would add real value to get more subscribers. An integrated NPL and network scheduling have much greater possibility for doing this than adding more to the buffer. I really want to see that list they had for mom, dad, etc.... When the premiere came out. There are so many great things they could do besides just adding to the buffer but hopefully they are asking through TiVo advisors before deciding that it should be high on the list.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:43 PM   #116
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I agree that increasing the buffer should never come before all the other requests.

And TiVo should definitely work on preventing the box from rebooting at the first sign of lost Internet connection or bad cable signal WAY before thinking about buffers.

I'm really waiting for the IP box to come out. I'd really like to retire my Series 3 depending on the IP box's capabilities.
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:15 PM   #117
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Oh, and I'm also an engineer. So there is that. I don't feel that my profession entitles me to elevate my opinions above those of others. What a pathetic joke.
As am I, the fellow with a lowly 13 posts on the Tivo forum. However, I did appreciate the education on the wonderful and magical technology behind the Tivo.

I too have never cared for the Suggestions feature and have always disabled it both on my Series 2 and now on my Premiere. Regarding the 30 minute buffer, it is too short on occasion, as you noted. Whether Tivo ever changes is not really a big deal, just a suggestion on a forum, not really worth arguing about one way or another.
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:55 PM   #118
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Cool

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I must be one of the 3, because we use Pandora every weekend on the patio speakers while we're in the pool.
Very cool. In both senses.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:29 AM   #119
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How Long is the Buffer?

Yes, I know, if I wanted to see "Face the Nation" I should have recorded "Face The Nation."
But anyway, at 11:20, i happened to turn on the TV, to watch a show I did record, and this happened to be on. It's an hour show, 10:30 to 11:30.
I hit record, and the "my shows" told me I had the first 50 minutes all set.
I don't use suggestions. This seems to tell me this TiVo is running a longer buffer.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:23 AM   #120
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Many channels have incorrect guide listings. There's been many times that I've turned on the TV and found a program that was not listed, but of interest, and advanced beyond the 30 minute buffer limit. Since the program is incorrectly listed there's no guaranty that it will be correct at some later time/date. A larger buffer would allow viewing from the beginning.
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