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Old 05-14-2012, 12:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by davezatz View Post
The networks are going to need to adapt. They are right that ratings should be counted year round and not just during sweeps. It's insane to only count a few weeks of the year. Technology allows us to measure practically every second of TV viewing. There is no good reason not to.

The networks have been much too slow to adapt and now technology is finding ways of giving people what they want.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:25 PM   #32
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...

And networks only because they are "must carry" stations and don't get paid for it. The other cable channels, Dish pays for the privilege of offering them, and if this was happening, those channels will probably up the rate Dish has to pay out. But since Dish is obligated to carry the networks (in exchange, the networks are paid nothing for carriage), they're free to do whatever they want.
MANY "local" stations are paid for the priviledge of Dish/Directv/Cable/etc carrying them.

A station can demand to be "must carry" - if it's a dink it certainly will demand that.

OR

It can ask for compensation at the risk of cable/sat telling them to go pound sand. Usually the large giant markets (NY, LA, Etc) demand money. Also stations that are owned and operated by mega companies that also control "important" cable channels bundle themseleves and demand more. So for example all disney owned stations try to link themselves to ESPN as a bundle. Dont pay the 7 bucks a sub for ESPN then you dont get ABC (and the rest of the bundle).

I wouldn't know for sure but i'd say its likely that a majority of the population is served by one or more channels that demand compensation.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:40 PM   #33
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Local programming is uplinked to satellite (not necessarily the same satellite as the "cable" channels). In a few markets the "local" programming received via satellite may be LA or NYC network affiliate programming. If you take a satellite receiver programmed for one location to a new location you'll receive the locals for the original location.
It's been years (since S3 came out) but last I knew LA and NYC are only allowed if you live in a location that doesn't have local station of a particular network. So you aren't actually in a market. If it were a market you would need to get that markets channels. So only a certain pockets of like montana or other "middle of nowhere" places and the like can get NY or LA.

Many years ago before satellite had the ability to carry all the different markets channels they were allowed to sell everyone NY and LA. Back then the sat companies broadcast each channel across the entire US. Now a days they have spot beams (like a flashlight from space) that aims at a specific area and only sends certain channels to that area. This allows them to reuse their limited spectrum over and over again so that rather then sending hundreds of local channels all over the US (which they dont have enough spectrum to do)- they only send the 8 from NY and LA everywhere and then the other hundreds they limit to just to a local area reusing frequencies over and over.

You have to tell the satellite company your zipcode and then they authorize your box for the specific channels you should get in that zipcode. If you move and you are not under the specific spot beam that has those channels anymore then you wont get anything- unless you call them up and tell them you have a new address. For example I live in the last zipcode for the NY area- one zipcode south you get Philly. If I moved to a mile or two down the road to the next zipcode south unless i told them i moved i wouldnt continue to get NY locals (and the NY RSN)


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No, if they aren't available over the air in my area, then they aren't "local".

That doesn't mean I have to get them over the air. In our case we get them via analog cable (at least for now, all though I'm sure TWC is working on how to break as much of my receiving equipment as possible to try to force us to rent something from them).
Directv (and I assume dish) has either an antenna in your area someplace to pickup the channels - or more likely (at least for larger stations) in this day and age they get a wired (fiber?) feed from the station just like your local cable provider does. They aggregate a bunch of locals and send them up to the satellites together (I seem to recall via a local satellite uplink but actually maybe they internet them to one of their main uplinks now?)

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Well I'll admit I was wrong..! They have some pretty big balls implementing this without getting them on board!
Hmmmm- shocking from the company that was aware of tivo's patents yet used infringing code anyway for years, even after being found guilty to the point of the judge debating charging them with contempt of court. Shocking too from a company that has repeatedly been admonished and/or censured in court.

it's Ergen's M.O. It seems to have made him a very rich man, so maybe he's not so dumb after all...
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:41 PM   #34
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.... They are right that ratings should be counted year round and not just during sweeps. It's insane to only count a few weeks of the year. Technology allows us to measure practically every second of TV viewing. There is no good reason not to.....
bet tivo would agree with that.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:09 PM   #35
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This is from Fierce Cable with noise from Fox as well:

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/nbc...ource=internal

From what I read it only applies to the four networks, it record all the prime time shows for that night. Then some how strip out the commercials and then make the all the shows available the for viewing WITHOUT the commercials the next day. I am going assume it only keep them for one day and replace them the next night prime time shows. The lawyers are going have fun with this

How is Dish doing this? Recording all the shows and then paying people to remove the commercials?
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:19 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by aadam101 View Post
The networks are going to need to adapt. They are right that ratings should be counted year round and not just during sweeps. It's insane to only count a few weeks of the year. Technology allows us to measure practically every second of TV viewing. There is no good reason not to.

The networks have been much too slow to adapt and now technology is finding ways of giving people what they want.
By “adapt” you mean that the networks should all become premium channels where everyone pay $10.00 a month to view?
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:26 PM   #37
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I'm surprised they're not going the other route and trying to insert NEW commercials into the old commercial slots, then making the advertisers or networks pay them for the ability to serve up new commercials appropriate to the day the viewer is watching.

Last week's Mother's Day promotion then gets replaced with this week's Memorial Day one.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:12 PM   #38
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I'm surprised they're not going the other route and trying to insert NEW commercials into the old commercial slots, then making the advertisers or networks pay them for the ability to serve up new commercials appropriate to the day the viewer is watching.

Last week's Mother's Day promotion then gets replaced with this week's Memorial Day one.
Directv does it!

They insert local commercials in slots designated for that purpose just like cable does, only directv does it at the dvr.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:09 PM   #39
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Sounds good. As a Coloradoan, I always keep my eye on Dish as an alternative to Xfinity.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:31 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by aadam101 View Post
The networks are going to need to adapt. They are right that ratings should be counted year round and not just during sweeps. It's insane to only count a few weeks of the year. Technology allows us to measure practically every second of TV viewing. There is no good reason not to.

The networks have been much too slow to adapt and now technology is finding ways of giving people what they want.
They do count the ratings all year round. Although during sweeps there is a much larger sampling of people used. And the future ad rates are based on those ratings during sweeps.
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Old 05-16-2012, 07:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by aadam101 View Post
The networks are going to need to adapt. They are right that ratings should be counted year round and not just during sweeps. It's insane to only count a few weeks of the year. Technology allows us to measure practically every second of TV viewing. There is no good reason not to.

The networks have been much too slow to adapt and now technology is finding ways of giving people what they want.
The network "adapting" will likely mean then adapting in ways we as consumers don't like. More bottom third ads during programs (I really dislike those), more product placements, higher carriage fees to cable providers resulting in higher monthly fees for us....

The networks have to make money and their main options are either fees to cable providers/consumers or ads. We as consumers don't like either option but one of them has to be there.
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Old 05-16-2012, 08:09 AM   #42
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The network "adapting" will likely mean then adapting in ways we as consumers don't like. More bottom third ads during programs (I really dislike those), more product placements, higher carriage fees to cable providers resulting in higher monthly fees for us....

The networks have to make money and their main options are either fees to cable providers/consumers or ads. We as consumers don't like either option but one of them has to be there.
Generally it seems it's not one of them being there, it's all of them.

Once upon a time you paid the cable company to act as your antenna instead of putting up your own for the local over the (publicly owned) air broadcasts which you could receive at no charge over said antenna, and then the National Association of Broadcasters buys enough congresscritters to get "must carry, must pay" put in place, so that the extra viewers they got by being on the cable had to pay the local stations for the "privilege" of using cable instead of erecting their own antenna.

And of course all of those non-broadcast cable channels we have to pay money that the cable company has to pay to them for are just as full of ads, if not more so, as the broadcast channels.

The entire industry's reaction to screwing us every chance they get is to complain that they don't get enough chances.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #43
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The network "adapting" will likely mean then adapting in ways we as consumers don't like. More bottom third ads during programs (I really dislike those), more product placements, higher carriage fees to cable providers resulting in higher monthly fees for us....
That doesn't bother me, at all, or it wouldn't if the higher fees were for channels I want to watch. Higher fees for chanenls in which I have no interest whatsoever really grinds my 'nards.

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The networks have to make money
No they don't. Not on me, at least. Shut them down, I say, and good riddance.

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We as consumers don't like either option but one of them has to be there.
No, they don't. As far as I am concerned, you can pay for that steaming pile of crap any way you like, but don't foist the programming or especially the programming costs on me - doubly especially when it includes thnigs like forking out a quarter of a $Billion to Oprah Winfrey.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:11 PM   #44
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By “adapt” you mean that the networks should all become premium channels where everyone pay $10.00 a month to view?
I honestly don't know what the solution is. What I do know is that it is often easier to "steal" content via BT than it is to pay for it legally. This is something the industry should be concerned with.

The Louis CK experiment was rather interesting and pretty is pretty much a slap in the face to both broadcast and cable execs. He self financed his program, made it available to download for a small fee and made a million bucks in just a week. He also turned around and licensed it to FX for a hefty fee.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:27 AM   #45
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After having dropped to limited basic cable I realize that I'm not really paying more than I paid 30 years ago for more local channels (including the digital x.2 and x.3 channels) than existed at that time. It's significantly cheaper after inflation.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:23 AM   #46
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I honestly don't know what the solution is. What I do know is that it is often easier to "steal" content via BT than it is to pay for it legally. This is something the industry should be concerned with.
Unfortunately their main answer is SOPA and things like that.

For giving people the abiltiy to watch a show they missed when it first aired, they really should look at HBO GO. That is an on-demand app for shows that did things right and did things well.

I do agree some of the crap they pull like saying a show isn't going to be available for viewing online until AFTER the next episode airs is stupid. If people miss episode 1 they want to watch episode 1 before episode 2 airs. The logic on stuff like that confuses me.

So I think for stuff like that, the best option is to put it on websites that validate you subscribe to the channel through your cable company and then give you access to the shows online the next day. That prevents people from "cutting the cord" and just watching stuff online for free which I know is their big fear so put it behind a portal that requires your cable company login to access. If I am already paying for your channel there is no reason I shouldn't be able to watch online the next day if I miss it.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:16 AM   #47
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It's funny how the networks are all up in arms about this, even though it's not any different than Fast Forwarding through the DVRed shows.

I think it's telling that they are still clinging on to a number of people are still too lazy or busy to FF (like my roommate, who "watch" DVR shows while working on her laptop).
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:04 AM   #48
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It's funny how the networks are all up in arms about this, even though it's not any different than Fast Forwarding through the DVRed shows.

I think it's telling that they are still clinging on to a number of people are still too lazy or busy to FF (like my roommate, who "watch" DVR shows while working on her laptop).
HUGE difference. I stop and rewind commercials that are of interest to me all the time when I ff through commercials.
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Old 05-17-2012, 12:28 PM   #49
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It's funny how the networks are all up in arms about this, even though it's not any different than Fast Forwarding through the DVRed shows.

I think it's telling that they are still clinging on to a number of people are still too lazy or busy to FF (like my roommate, who "watch" DVR shows while working on her laptop).
It is different because if you FF you are still going to see some of the commercial through the FF and might see something that makes you stop. With this you see zero of the commercial. It is also why they hated the 30-second skip and TiVo made it an "undocumented feature" because you completely bypass the commercial.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:17 PM   #50
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It is different because if you FF you are still going to see some of the commercial through the FF and might see something that makes you stop. With this you see zero of the commercial. It is also why they hated the 30-second skip and TiVo made it an "undocumented feature" because you completely bypass the commercial.
As I understand it, this is even worse (for the ad bozos) than 30 second skip. On 30 SS, you still have to press the button. With Dish, you don't.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:30 PM   #51
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Once upon a time you paid the cable company to act as your antenna instead of putting up your own for the local over the (publicly owned) air broadcasts which you could receive at no charge over said antenna, and then the National Association of Broadcasters buys enough congresscritters to get "must carry, must pay" put in place, so that the extra viewers they got by being on the cable had to pay the local stations for the "privilege" of using cable instead of erecting their own antenna.
Reading the wikipedia page about this, the station has to ask to be carried under this clause, it's not automatic.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:09 PM   #52
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Reading the wikipedia page about this, the station has to ask to be carried under this clause, it's not automatic.
Back in the '80s when the NAB first got it enacted there was a reason they called it "Must Carry".

There may have been some changes since.

Also, note that, despite the overall topic, I am referring specifically to cable television when I talk about "must carry, must pay" rules.

I don't think satellite companies "have" to carry anyone in particular, do they?
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:11 AM   #53
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Directv does it!

They insert local commercials in slots designated for that purpose just like cable does, only directv does it at the dvr.
Not the same. The poster you quoted was suggesting replacing a commercial with a different commercial. One reason why advertisers don't want to pay for DVR viewers is some commercials are time sensitive. An ad for a movie opening has little value a few weeks later. Same with an ad for a weekend sale.

Right now there are two different issues with DVR viewers and commercials. The number of viewers who FF and the number of commercials which have reduced value if viewed later.

People say the networks have to adapt. What if one solution is to require FF be disabled during some (or all) commercials? (Almost) all of us would have big problems with it but it makes sense from the networks viewpoint. Ads pay for the programs.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:43 AM   #54
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Not the same. The poster you quoted was suggesting replacing a commercial with a different commercial. One reason why advertisers don't want to pay for DVR viewers is some commercials are time sensitive. An ad for a movie opening has little value a few weeks later. Same with an ad for a weekend sale.

Right now there are two different issues with DVR viewers and commercials. The number of viewers who FF and the number of commercials which have reduced value if viewed later.

People say the networks have to adapt. What if one solution is to require FF be disabled during some (or all) commercials? (Almost) all of us would have big problems with it but it makes sense from the networks viewpoint. Ads pay for the programs.
They already do this with DVDs movies on parts they don't want you to skip, like the FBI warnings etc. IF they did this on DVRs that would stop one of the two great reasons for having a DVR.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:58 AM   #55
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The network "adapting" will likely mean then adapting in ways we as consumers don't like. More bottom third ads during programs (I really dislike those), more product placements, higher carriage fees to cable providers resulting in higher monthly fees for us....

The networks have to make money and their main options are either fees to cable providers/consumers or ads. We as consumers don't like either option but one of them has to be there.
I hate the lower thirds ads so much that I'm actually considering canceling my extended cable (and going to basic cable only for the news) and using Netflix or AppleTV to supplement my TV shows. I feel that I am paying good money to watch the programming, why should the networks ruin something I'm paying for? I just haven't figured out any way to fight it other than canceling.

As far as product placement, I really don't mind it as long as it's well-done and doesn't become a mini-commercial. It's actually kind of fun to try to spot products -- remember the Mac v. PC placements during "24"? On the other hand, when the actors start talking about the product, it's really obnoxious. The stupid Subway ads in Chuck and the Toyota ads in Bones are over the top annoying.

I often do FF stop and watch ads when I want to see them. I recently watched a lot of car ads when I was considering buying my car. And I always look for the latest episode of "The Most Interesting Man in the World."
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:44 PM   #56
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Didn't a survey come out recently that said that people using DVRs actually watch more advertising?

I know for me, since gettig my Premieres and switching to the 30 second scan, that Iwatch more commercials when I see one that interests me. With the 30 second skip I rarely saw any.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:57 PM   #57
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Back in the '80s when the NAB first got it enacted there was a reason they called it "Must Carry".

There may have been some changes since.

Also, note that, despite the overall topic, I am referring specifically to cable television when I talk about "must carry, must pay" rules.

I don't think satellite companies "have" to carry anyone in particular, do they?
it's been "by request" for as long as i can recall, the tv station has to demand "must carry" or they can instead ask for payment "must pay". either or.

I forget what the deal is with satellite but i think that once they service a market with locals then the rules apply to them. I also forget what the regulation is for them and servicing particular markets- they might be able to ignore a particular market- BUT they can no longer sell the "big 4" to people unless they are in an area that has no coverage (eg the middle of montana). So Directv can ignore upstate NY as an example but if they want to sell "big 4" content then they have to provide the local channels from that area (either as must carry or must pay)
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #58
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I honestly don't know what the solution is.
yes you do - you cited it:

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The Louis CK experiment was rather interesting and pretty is pretty much a slap in the face to both broadcast and cable execs. He self financed his program, made it available to download for a small fee and made a million bucks in just a week. He also turned around and licensed it to FX for a hefty fee.
Economic forces will more than likely even it all out. What I can't fathom is the television/movie execs that look at iTunes and what a boon it was to the music industry and can't say "hey, there's all we have to do to make even MORE money".

Talk about a complete lack of vision...
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #59
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I think the networks are much too concerned about when I see an ad. How many ads are really worthless if not seen immediately? A movie ad may entice me to rent it on DVD even if I don't see it that weekend in the theater. I may still visit a store even though their big weekend blowout sale is over. The only time an ad is worthless is if the thing being advertised no longer exists like a music festival or sporting event. But as long as the business still exists, there's value to the ad even if I don't watch it on the day it was aired.

However, I don't think the device should automatically skip commercials. That makes it too easy for the entire viewing audience to not watch the advertising. If no one watches the ads, they won't make the show. So I think there should always be the ability to skip over the commercial, but it should take some effort. That way there will always some part of the audience who sees the commercial.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:07 PM   #60
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Fox, NBC, and CBS have filed suit:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-05/...kip-sues-dish/

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We were given no choice but to file suit against one of our largest distributors, DISH Network, because of their surprising move to market a product with the clear goal of violating copyrights and destroying the fundamental underpinnings of the broadcast television ecosystem. Their wrongheaded decision requires us to take swift action in order to aggressively defend the future of free, over-the-air television.
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NBC has filed suit against this unlawful service in order to keep over-the-air broadcast television a strong competitor. Advertising generates the revenue that makes it possible for local broadcast stations and national broadcast networks to pay for the creation of the news, sports and entertainment programming that are the hallmark of American broadcasting. Dish simply does not have the authority to tamper with the ads from broadcast replays on a wholesale basis for its own economic and commercial advantage.
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This service takes existing network content and modifies it in a manner that is unauthorized and illegal. [CBS] believe this is a clear violation of copyright law and we intend to stop it.
DISH has countersued:

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DISH today filed suit against ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC in federal court for a declaratory judgment on questions that have arisen related to the pay-TV provider’s May 10 introduction of a user-enabled commercial skipping technology called AutoHop. DISH’s monthly subscriber fees include significant “retransmission fees” that DISH pays to the major networks. Although the broadcasters have made much of their content available for free using sites such as Hulu, they have continued to demand substantial increases in their retransmission fees. In addition to increasing media reports of planned legal action against DISH, three of the networks — CBS, Fox and NBC – have rejected ads for DISH’s Hopper Whole-Home DVR, the device that features the AutoHop function.


Last edited by davezatz : 05-24-2012 at 06:45 PM.
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