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Old 12-02-2010, 10:29 AM   #91
cogx
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I maintain that the clear QAM mapping issue - which I agree now was always DOA, in spite of those who have been in the past (*raises hand*) and continue to be passionately for it (*lowers hand*) - has always actually been a minor subset of the real issue that TiVo doesn't appear to have an in-house mechanism to make changes to the station-to-channel mapping embedded within the licensed TMS guide data they upload into our TiVo hardware.

Now, had TiVo designed their system in a way which allowed the embedded station-to-channel mapping to be dynamically updated, before being uploaded to our TiVo hardware, the flexibility would have been there.
Many people have argued that even with the capability to allow for clear QAM mapping, it was still an awful idea, for various business reasons, and those arguments actually wore me down a year or two year ago and I conceded.

However, having had 45 documented days in 2010 to where there were errors in the station-to-channel mapping for my cable provider:zip:build, I still believe it is a major design flaw that TiVo didn't design a system to where they have some override control over the station-to-channel mapping data TMS provides.

Of course, it could be that I am biased. For those who still think there's nothing wrong with the way TiVo has implemented their guide data system, feel free to jump into this thread and tell those poor souls what you think about their woes.

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Old 12-02-2010, 11:21 AM   #92
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has always actually been a minor subset of the real issue that TiVo doesn't appear to have an in-house mechanism to make changes to the station-to-channel mapping embedded within the licensed TMS guide data they upload into our TiVo hardware.
that is a different approach that, as you point out, would have added benefit in TiVo providing better service overall. I pointed out the idea that TiVo could have massaged the daily show data and pegged the repeats so first run season pass would not get them. Earlier in the thread I expressed that I wondered how TiVo could economically staff such a capability and someone replied with an interesting ID of the TiVo staff could simply respond to customer issues versus trying to find out on their own. That does seem like a gap, though I have no idea what the agreement from TMS is on the data or if TiVo even has a chance to touch the data via its own internal systems
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:19 PM   #93
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This Thread should become a dead issue
Operative word is SHOULD.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:39 PM   #94
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You're missing the point, or I'm misreading your post. The issue is tivo won't work with a cable system which doesn't use any security on some or all digital channels.
No, neither one, I think. The vast majorioty of CATV systems are required to support CableCards. If it is a digital channel, then it is serviced by a CableCard, with only a very few exceptions.

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At least for a customer who doesn't subscribe to any encrypted channels.
While it is true any clear channel, non-switched digital channel can be tuned by a set without a CableCard, the original intent was for everyone to have a card, regardless of their lineup.

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I don't think the FCC is requiring cable systems use any security, only that any security being used is separable. TV sets work fine with unencrypted channels, tivo doesn't.
TiVo works precisely the same way a TV does with unencrypted channels. Manually tune the channel, and it will be received. The difference is the TVs are not trying to record events based upon an out-of-band database.

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Tivo works with cable cards.
So do many TVs. I have one, and have had for well over four years.

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TV sets equipped with a cable card slot don't work in cable systems that require tuning adapters.
They don't work on SDV channels. They work fine on linear channels.

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TV sets have a QAM tuner. Tivo has a QAM tuner. Tivo decided not to use the QAM tuner (without using a cable card even for channels not encrypted.)
TiVo's QAM tuners work just fine without a CableCard. It's the guide that doesn't work without the CableCard. Among other things, employing the CableCard allows the CATV provider to quickly and easily make line-up changes. For some reason I could never really understand when I worked for them, they love to do this. A very distinct advantage, however, is that making room for new channel deployments is easy. More importantly, in the event of a QAM failure - or a whole bank of them - the headend can simply move the channel over to a diferent QAM with a different frequency at the figurative push of a button, so the failure of a modulator will have minimal impact on customers. Without a dynamic channel map, this isn't possible.

What TiVo decided to do was follow both the letter and intent of the CableCard standard.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:53 PM   #95
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I maintain that the clear QAM mapping issue - which I agree now was always DOA, in spite of those who have been in the past (*raises hand*) and continue to be passionately for it (*lowers hand*) - has always actually been a minor subset of the real issue that TiVo doesn't appear to have an in-house mechanism to make changes to the station-to-channel mapping embedded within the licensed TMS guide data they upload into our TiVo hardware.
How is TiVo supposed to know that a QAM modulator serving 450 homes has failed in a New Jersey suburb, and that the technicians have moved 11 channels off that QAM to one 60 MHz higher in frequency for 2 days until a replacement arrives?

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Many people have argued that even with the capability to allow for clear QAM mapping, it was still an awful idea, for various business reasons, and those arguments actually wore me down a year or two year ago and I conceded.
'Not just for business reasons. Ther are very real technical and engineering reasons why it's a bad idea.

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However, having had 45 documented days in 2010 to where there were errors in the station-to-channel mapping for my cable provider:zip:build, I still believe it is a major design flaw that TiVo didn't design a system to where they have some override control over the station-to-channel mapping data TMS provides.
Within 2 years, more than 95% of all broadcast channels will be SDV on some systems. Within 5, a signifcant number of systems are liable to be 100% SDV. Even today, only a very limited number of chanels on most CATV systems have any fixed mapping.

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Of course, it could be that I am biased. For those who still think there's nothing wrong with the way TiVo has implemented their guide data system, feel free to jump into this thread and tell those poor souls what you think about their woes.
I didn't say there is nothing wrong with it. I said the proposed methods by which people want the situation addressed are bad ideas. Nothing is perfect, and any dynamic environment is going to wind up displacing some people's needs. Forcing the implementation of a limited system, or forcing the limitation of a very much more flexible system is not the answer.
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:51 PM   #96
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Within 2 years, more than 95% of all broadcast channels will be SDV on some systems. Within 5, a signifcant number of systems are liable to be 100% SDV. Even today, only a very limited number of chanels on most CATV systems have any fixed mapping.
Why do you say this? My understanding is that SDV works by not sending channels that are unwatched. Since the big networks are likely the most watched I would expect that they would not be put on SDV unless there is some big change in viewing behavior. In my area, the SDV channels are the more obscure channels. As a result, I have opted to not use a tuning adapter.
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:16 AM   #97
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Its all about network efficiency. While to me it wouldn't make sense to move certain channels to SDV, just so they are always available, I can see some bean counter saying why not put all channels on SDV. If the channel isn't being used we can use the bandwidth for something else.
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:24 PM   #98
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How is TiVo supposed to know that a QAM modulator serving 450 homes has failed in a New Jersey suburb, and that the technicians have moved 11 channels off that QAM to one 60 MHz higher in frequency for 2 days until a replacement arrives?

'Not just for business reasons. Ther are very real technical and engineering reasons why it's a bad idea.

Within 2 years, more than 95% of all broadcast channels will be SDV on some systems. Within 5, a signifcant number of systems are liable to be 100% SDV. Even today, only a very limited number of chanels on most CATV systems have any fixed mapping.
My last post you picked apart clearly stated that, although I've been posting in this thread, I'm not at all promoting clear QAM mapping and so I have no idea what SDV has to do with anything I've personally been writing about.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:47 AM   #99
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This Thread should become a dead issue
Apparently they're intent on rehashing the same tired stuff, knowing full well that nothing will come of it.
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:31 PM   #100
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Is it fair to assume that all the readers of this thread know that there are (at least) two sets of channel numbers being discussed here? (1) The logical channel numbers that are (relatively) fixed and are what appears in guides such as from Tribune Media, and (2) the physical channel on the cable, which can be changed on a whim by the cable provider. As mentioned in a earlier post, reasons for on-they-fly changes include optimizing how channels are packed together and temporary hardware failures effecting customers in a certain neighborhood. Tribune does not know anything about the physical channels. And there is the cable card or Tuning Adapter, which provides the logical-physical channel map, on a real-time basis.

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Old 12-06-2010, 12:08 AM   #101
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Is it fair to assume that all the readers of this thread know that there are (at least) two sets of channel numbers being discussed here? (1) The logical channel numbers that are (relatively) fixed and are what appears in guides such as from Tribune Media, and (2) the physical channel on the cable, which can be changed on a whim by the cable provider. As mentioned in a earlier post, reasons for on-they-fly changes include optimizing how channels are packed together and temporary hardware failures effecting customers in a certain neighborhood. Tribune does not know anything about the physical channels. And there is the cable card or Tuning Adapter, which provides the logical-physical channel map, on a real-time basis.
And people reading your post should put this issue and Thread to bed as IMHO it would not be in TiVos interest to get involve in this.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:49 AM   #102
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As mentioned in a earlier post, reasons for on-they-fly changes include optimizing how channels are packed together and temporary hardware failures effecting customers in a certain neighborhood.
Another reason is to intentionally screw with clear QAM users.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:06 PM   #103
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Another reason is to intentionally screw with clear QAM users.
That may just be a convenient (for them) side effect. If there was never any requirement for them to maintain a stable logical-physical channel mapping, why (from their perspective) shouldn't they tweak the mapping whenever they see some, no matter how trivial, technical reason to do so?
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:25 AM   #104
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Sorry, but I'm still in the camp that believes that TiVo could provide some form of clear-QAM channel suport. It wouldn't be 100% and it wouldn't be guaratnteed, but it should at least comprehend whenever local HD channels are carried on OTA-equivalent channel numbers.

Two years ago I filed a complaint with the FCC since my local Comcast was "hiding" these local HD channels with numbers like 73-2304. I also filed with the local Franchise Authority. Comcast met with the Authority (to whom I provided some ammunition) and they agreed to move them to OTA-equivalent numbers. They've been that way now for 18 months.

It can't happen everywhere, but it can happen.
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:48 AM   #105
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Sorry, but I'm still in the camp that believes that TiVo could provide some form of clear-QAM channel suport. It wouldn't be 100% and it wouldn't be guaratnteed, but it should at least comprehend whenever local HD channels are carried on OTA-equivalent channel numbers.

Two years ago I filed a complaint with the FCC since my local Comcast was "hiding" these local HD channels with numbers like 73-2304. I also filed with the local Franchise Authority. Comcast met with the Authority (to whom I provided some ammunition) and they agreed to move them to OTA-equivalent numbers. They've been that way now for 18 months.

It can't happen everywhere, but it can happen.
I think its trivial to make this happen, however I can't see a way that it wouldn't feel tacked on to the current menus(kinda like all the video on demand stuff). I also think that TiVo has dragged it's feet on this so long now that if they were to create a solution it wouldn't last long before something else broke it.
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Old 12-07-2010, 02:00 PM   #106
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I think its trivial to make this happen, however I can't see a way that it wouldn't feel tacked on to the current menus(kinda like all the video on demand stuff).
All the settings menus in the Premiere seem tacked on
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Old 12-07-2010, 02:53 PM   #107
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All the settings menus in the Premiere seem tacked on
Doh!

Now all the fan boi's will be gunning for you.
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:32 PM   #108
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I think its trivial to make this happen, however I can't see a way that it wouldn't feel tacked on to the current menus(kinda like all the video on demand stuff).
I'm all for making such an option a bit hard to find. I've always thought power-user level features deserve a bit of an intelligence test to activate them.

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I also think that TiVo has dragged it's feet on this so long now that if they were to create a solution it wouldn't last long before something else broke it.
Given that the pool of unencrypted channels is shrinking and will eventually be equal to only the set of local channels for most people, the incentive for Tivo to do this is declining. If they didn't do it four years ago, they certainly wouldn't do it now.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:49 PM   #109
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It's a shame. For the past two years all my local HD channels have scanned in via ClearQAM with the correct channel numbers and the correct channel identification/call letters. They can even be added to the guide but will forever display "to be announced" in the listings. I cannot receive all of these via Antenna so it's an extra $10+ a month (two CableCARDs and an extra outlet fee) if I want to watch them.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:49 AM   #110
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It's a shame that folks keep posting about this dead horse.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:28 PM   #111
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It's a shame. For the past two years all my local HD channels have scanned in via ClearQAM with the correct channel numbers and the correct channel identification/call letters. They can even be added to the guide but will forever display "to be announced" in the listings. I cannot receive all of these via Antenna so it's an extra $10+ a month (two CableCARDs and an extra outlet fee) if I want to watch them.

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Old 01-11-2011, 05:26 PM   #112
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It's a shame that folks keep posting about this dead horse.
It's almost as bad as the folks that keep posting about beating this dead horse.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:49 PM   #113
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The issue is that the existing cable is as part of the apartment maintenance at no additional cost. If they get cable cards, they essentially move off the apartment plan and need to upgrade. I don't know if there is FCC jurisdiction over this type of stuff, but I guess probably not.

I see that other areas have changing frequencies-- I just know that this one has not.
My apartment complex pays for my basic cable package. I just had to add the cable card.

Just call and tell them that the landlord pays for the cable, they should know how to add the cable card.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:49 PM   #114
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I've been burned enough times by Comcast and don't want to deal with them unless I'm desperate. I would rather stare at a stone tablet instead of a TV then have them screw something up here again.
Well, it appears that I was finally desperate enough. I got a letter from Comcast warning of an impending digital migration, so I went to the local Comcast office and picked up a cable card self-install kit. Other than having difficulty understanding the off-shore CSR on the phone, the cable card pairing seemed to work OK.

Of course, my Windows 7 Media Center pc continues to work very well with the Comcast clear QAM channels (thank you PSIP data) as it has from day one.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:39 PM   #115
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Other than having difficulty understanding the off-shore CSR on the phone, the cable card pairing seemed to work OK.
I just went thru a self-install migration from Frontier FiOS to Comcast myself. Just a few notes that may help others:

1st CableCARD installed required escalation to 2nd level tech support; local channels worked but none of the other channels (e.g. like CNBC) I was paying for. The tech wound up sending an "initialization" signal that got everything functional.

I did my subsequent cards the next day. They wouldn't even show locals, even though the Conditional Access screen changed from "Con: No" to "Con: Yes" after Comcast tried to pair the cards. They were going to escalate me to 2nd level tech support but they said their procedure was to ask for a reboot of the TiVos first. So I hung up and rebooted my TiVo HDs and everything started working.

TiVo has excellent CableCARD troubleshooting info on their site. I don't have the URL handy, but I found it on another thread here (perhaps in the Series3 forum). Using TiVo's site I was able to tell the Comcast 2nd level tech that my authorization said "Auth: MP" instead of "Auth: S" (and TiVo's site mentions this as a problem). I'd like to think that actually helped Comcast, but in reality what the tech probably did was send a series of various "hits" and "initializations", one of which did the trick. All the Comcast CableCARDs are previously used, so of course they are always suspect in my estimation.
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