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Old 04-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #31
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All this reminds me how much I miss the DSLR boards. Great Fios resource. Hope they're back up soon.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:00 PM   #32
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Hasn't it been two weeks now?

At AVS someone mentioned that one of the VHOs got some new international channels that use H.264. So hopefully things start speeding up.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:59 PM   #33
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They'd better not leave the Series 3 and HD behind in this update. We know those boxes are fully capable of decoding h.264 because of their YouTube support. There will be a LOT of people getting their torches and pitchforks out if they start losing channels for no reason other than marketing.
I am not sure that I would say that Series3 and TivoHD are fully capable. TivoHD seemed to be better at decoding various resolution/framerates of H.264 files than Series3 (from what I have gathered working with moyekj on some kmttg profiles). I have found that my Premiere is somewhat better at H.264 playback than my TivoHDs. Most everything IS watchable on my TivoHDs but I have had some audio sync issues on it that I never experience on my Premieres and the Premiere handles 23.976fps video better.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:23 PM   #34
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I'm assuming that people with Fios and Tivo will not be able to see the H.264 channels until the new software update. I have Cox in Phoenix and am unable to see the H.264 channels on Tivo. I had the same cablecard in an HD HomeRun Prime and was able to see the channels. I'm hoping to get the spring update sooner than later.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:53 PM   #35
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here is what was posted at AVS about the five new HD international channels using MPEG4 on VHO 08.

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Originally Posted by jeepmatt View Post
For the goodness of this forum (since DSL Reports is still down!!) - I did an online 1-day subscription to the Spanish package so I could check these out. Still no guide data - but was able to garner this much:

1516 - still not sure
1670 - Ultra Fiesta
1690 - Ultra Cine
1692 - Ultra Mex
1730 - Ultra Kidz

So it appears these Ultra channels are a package - 1516 has some hilarious live kid-type show...haven't seen a channel announcement yet.

Figuring all 5 of these are on 1 QAM, picture quality isn't that bad. Definitely a good test.

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Old 05-04-2012, 01:50 PM   #36
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I tweeted Margret on May 1....

@tivodesign Will mpeg4 (H.264) over cable work with Premiere and TivoHD?
Expand

@shamilian Which cable company?

@tivodesign Verizon FIOS - I am told they are adding new stations using H.264

@shamilian Thanks. I will check and see if we've confirmed compatibility.


no reply yet......
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:36 PM   #37
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I am not subscribed to any of the eight, MPEG4, HD channels that FiOS has added recently. Although if I tune to the channel, the DVR diagnostics does show the channels are encoded with H.264. But since I am not subscribed I will not get a picture. So I have no way to test my premieres to see if they will tune the channels in without issue.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:17 PM   #38
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A guy on DSLReports says they're working on his Premiere. Other guy says not on S3.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r271...-comes-to-Fios
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by wmcbrine
A guy on DSLReports says they're working on his Premiere. Other guy says not on S3.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r271...-comes-to-Fios
This is great news then. At least if you have an S4 box. I wonder if they will send out an update for the S3 boxes so the H.264 channels can be viewed on them?
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:51 PM   #40
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I wonder if they will send out an update for the S3 boxes so the H.264 channels can be viewed on them?
Much as I would like my TiVo HD boxes to support H.264, adding that capability would be a very dumb business move on TiVo's part. Lots of work, no revenue (at least not from me, on lifetime). You could make a better business case if the majority of the S3 boxes were on month-to-month payments.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:54 AM   #41
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Much as I would like my TiVo HD boxes to support H.264, adding that capability would be a very dumb business move on TiVo's part. Lots of work, no revenue (at least not from me, on lifetime).
I doubt it would be that much work, since the New Zealand TiVos already have this capability, and AFAIK they're the same hardware as the TiVo HD.

Anyway, the benefit of doing it would be customer goodwill. Someone whose TiVo is updated to cope with h.264 is going to feel better about TiVo, and therefore be more likely to make future purchases with them, and be more likely to recommend them to others, than someone who gets left behind. It may be difficult to put a number on that, but it's real.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:15 AM   #42
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I doubt it would be that much work, since the New Zealand TiVos already have this capability, and AFAIK they're the same hardware as the TiVo HD.

Anyway, the benefit of doing it would be customer goodwill. Someone whose TiVo is updated to cope with h.264 is going to feel better about TiVo, and therefore be more likely to make future purchases with them, and be more likely to recommend them to others, than someone who gets left behind. It may be difficult to put a number on that, but it's real.
I have to agree, most people are afraid of making a purchase if the cable company can change something and render their hardware useless...if Tivos only response is that I should spend more money to get a new Tivo and buy lifetime again, then I would have to say renting from the cable company is the only reasonable choice....(although I would buy new hardware if they let me transfer my lifetime service)
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:59 AM   #43
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Anyway, the benefit of doing it would be customer goodwill.
Ha. Most companies forgot about the concept of "goodwill" many decades ago.

I think one of the reasons Apple is so successful is that they have created the perception of goodwill around their products. E.g. there are stories of computers and iPods that are past their warranty period that get quickly replaced by the "geniuses" when there are problems. OTOH there are other stories of Apple sticking their head in the ground (e.g. when confronted with bad NVidia GPUs). So perhaps the lesson is that even a little bit of goodwill goes a long way, because it's so rare these days.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:11 AM   #44
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Not the company, but the shareholders. It is hard to make a stock price impact from unvalued "goodwill". If they can make a business case for it- lost customers vs continued revenue vs future revenue, then it will happen.

It is easy for apple to give the perception of goodwill as so many are paying much above cost for their products. With that much headroom, they can replace items without affecting the bottom line. While TiVo has cash in the bank, their operating margins are thin to non-existent, so I would think a business case is a necessity. If they already do this in another market, that hopefully makes the case easier to support.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:01 AM   #45
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Ha. Most companies forgot about the concept of "goodwill" many decades ago.

I think one of the reasons Apple is so successful is that they have created the perception of goodwill around their products. E.g. there are stories of computers and iPods that are past their warranty period that get quickly replaced by the "geniuses" when there are problems. OTOH there are other stories of Apple sticking their head in the ground (e.g. when confronted with bad NVidia GPUs). So perhaps the lesson is that even a little bit of goodwill goes a long way, because it's so rare these days.
That is because they over price their products so there is tons of profit margin built in to allow them to do that.
Of course every company probably wishes they could do the same thing.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:05 AM   #46
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This is great news then. At least if you have an S4 box. I wonder if they will send out an update for the S3 boxes so the H.264 channels can be viewed on them?

IMO, the precedent is there. They added support for OTA digital boxes to the Series 2 line in 2008 or 2009, I think after some demand or cajolling.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:50 AM   #47
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Not the company, but the shareholders. It is hard to make a stock price impact from unvalued "goodwill". If they can make a business case for it- lost customers vs continued revenue vs future revenue, then it will happen.

It is easy for apple to give the perception of goodwill as so many are paying much above cost for their products. With that much headroom, they can replace items without affecting the bottom line. While TiVo has cash in the bank, their operating margins are thin to non-existent, so I would think a business case is a necessity. If they already do this in another market, that hopefully makes the case easier to support.
Not just "goodwill". The service fee customers are paying is suppose to include software upgrades. Are customers asking for "goodwill" or are we asking to get what we're paying for?
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #48
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Yeah, but how many people are actively paying for S3 software support, which is to say how many S3 owners are still without lifetime service? It's sad to say, but if an exec at TiVo has made the decision to terminate all S3 development (which seems to be the case), then getting him to change his mind is going to be an uphill battle. This is doubly so since we (S3 TiVo owners) do not have direct access to him. This fact is one of the many major drawbacks to large, publicly held corporations.

For me personally, it is not a matter of great concern. It is unlikely Time Warner will implement any h.264 services. There is no need for them to do so, and doing so would be expensive. If they do deploy h.264 widely, then I will either dump them, or the TiVos, or both. For me, this would possibly mean terminating CATV service altogether, since a DVR that complies with the CCI byte is of virtually no use to me. The one possible escape route would be switching from TWC to Grande, presuming they do not switch to h.264. As I said, however, the likelihood that TWC will switch to h.264 seems small, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:35 PM   #49
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IMO, the precedent is there. They added support for OTA digital boxes to the Series 2 line in 2008 or 2009, I think after some demand or cajolling.
True, but that was a much broader impact than h.264. EVERY OTA station went digital, more or less simultaneously. Not every CATV system is going to go 100% h.264, and some no doubt "never" will have any h.264 content at all.
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:26 PM   #50
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IMO, the precedent is there. They added support for OTA digital boxes to the Series 2 line in 2008 or 2009, I think after some demand or cajolling.
They'll add h.264 support right after they add clear QAM support.

Just kidding. That's my feeble attempt at humor. Please don't start any clear QAM battles in this thread.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #51
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Not just "goodwill". The service fee customers are paying is suppose to include software upgrades. Are customers asking for "goodwill" or are we asking to get what we're paying for?
Tivo service does not include a requirement to upgrade functionality. The terms do not imply that either. I am not making a comment on whether or not I actually think Tivo should update their functionality to handle this particular case, but you are not particularly entitled to it as a term in the service agreement. The only thing that must happen is that your box must accept an upgrade if Tivo sends it out.

https://www3.tivo.com/abouttivo/poli...opup_ajax.html
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:40 AM   #52
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Tivo service does not include a requirement to upgrade functionality. The terms do not imply that either.

https://www3.tivo.com/abouttivo/poli...opup_ajax.html

You have got to love this agreement, and the lawyers that wrote it....

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TiVo may at its discretion change the terms of this Agreement.

TIVO MAKES NO WARRANTY THAT THE TIVO SERVICE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, ALLOW YOU TO RECORD, VIEW OR TRANSFER ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING, OR THAT USE OF THE TIVO SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE, OR ERROR-FREE;


TIVO AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY, REGARDING THE TIVO SERVICE OR TIVO SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON- INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. Because some jurisdictions do not permit the exclusion of implied warranties, the last sentence of this section may not apply to you.

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Old 05-07-2012, 02:12 PM   #53
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Lawyers have done a "good job" with the fine print. Assuming the "fine print" is enforceable no one should buy any service from any vendor.

S3 units already support h.264 files when pushed. I understand they support h.264 files in New Zealand. Expecting a unit will continue to work, subject to any hardware limitations, as cable systems make changes isn't an unreasonable request. Isn't really asking for any favors. Not really even asking for goodwill. Just asking for what was implicitly promised.

The question should be if tivo can make the necessary software changes with a reasonable amount of effort. Not if tivo's lawyers think they can get away with not continuing to support (via necessary software updates) existing customers.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:47 PM   #54
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The fine print allows them to make either decision. If is is profitable to them, they will do it. I would think it would happen even if marginal/break even, but at this point we have to wait and see.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:03 PM   #55
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I tweeted Margret on May 1....

@tivodesign Will mpeg4 (H.264) over cable work with Premiere and TivoHD?
Expand

@shamilian Which cable company?

@tivodesign Verizon FIOS - I am told they are adding new stations using H.264

@shamilian Thanks. I will check and see if we've confirmed compatibility.


no reply yet......
I'm guessing you're still without a response on this. Am I wrong?
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:28 PM   #56
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I heard it works on the Premiere but not the S3 boxes. On FiOS.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:06 PM   #57
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Hmmm. Just as I'm about to re-up with FIOS ....

I don't care about the baseball channels, but one of the dslreports threads said that the premium movie channels will be a likely place for H.264 next because they come to VZ as H.264 and premium channels will impact fewer customers on older non-compatible set tops of Verizon's (6xxx series).

I've got lifetime HDs and FIOS wants a two year commitment and they may not play well together soon....

If it takes any effort at all, I would bet against Tivo upgrading HDs.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:19 PM   #58
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I called TiVo today to ask about this issue and was told that MPEG-4 (H.264) support will not be coming to TiVo HD units. They offered to sell me a Premiere to add support for those channels and I declined. The support rep didn't seem interested in the TiVo HD hardware's potential to support it, and the rep was just relaying information someone else provided to them anyway. Hopefully this is just their current position on this issue, not their final decision. Certainly if any existing channels switch over to H.264 they will be getting a lot more calls about this.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:37 PM   #59
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Hmmm. Just as I'm about to re-up with FIOS ....

I don't care about the baseball channels, but one of the dslreports threads said that the premium movie channels will be a likely place for H.264 next because they come to VZ as H.264 and premium channels will impact fewer customers on older non-compatible set tops of Verizon's (6xxx series).

I've got lifetime HDs and FIOS wants a two year commitment and they may not play well together soon....

If it takes any effort at all, I would bet against Tivo upgrading HDs.
On DSL Reports is was reported that FiOS has no plans to convert any existing channels to H.264 this year or next. Supposedly they discussed doing it but ultimately decided against it.

Whether that is true or not I don't know. But the eight HD, H.264 channels they added this Spring were all new channels. Three for the baseball package and five for the Spanish package.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:57 AM   #60
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Why wont tivo release a soft wear update for the tivo hds anymore? tivo hd does have a h.264 decoder in it so it should work. i feel like my tivo hd is being abandoned by tivo.


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I called TiVo today to ask about this issue and was told that MPEG-4 (H.264) support will not be coming to TiVo HD units. They offered to sell me a Premiere to add support for those channels and I declined. The support rep didn't seem interested in the TiVo HD hardware's potential to support it, and the rep was just relaying information someone else provided to them anyway. Hopefully this is just their current position on this issue, not their final decision. Certainly if any existing channels switch over to H.264 they will be getting a lot more calls about this.

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