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Old 04-14-2012, 11:09 AM   #1
wendiness1
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Shark Tank 4/13/12

I LOVED it when the Sharks bailed on Wine Guy. He was being a genuine jerk. Of course, it's possible it was edited to look that way. But I think he came in there with arrogance and then reveled in what he perceived to be the dramatic tension. Instead, he just pissed off the Sharks who, I believe, have grown weary of people who are really just there to advertise.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:08 PM   #2
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Totally agree... he was being an even bigger ass than the first time around. He certainly could make millions more with a second production line of Copa...but he was so blinded by that that he could not see that he could make BILLIONS selling and licensing the technology to other wine makers. What a complete fool. I'm glad they all walked. Kevin was willing to play *just* to become an investor, and then have SOME control over this guy to continue to sell him on the potential of licensing deals. It did look like he was about to say "yes", but wanted to do it in a stupid, dramatic way, so that he could justify halving his valuation. Sharks don't want drama, they just want an answer. Good to Cuban for bailing at the first hint of drama -- I would have done the same thing.

And what's with the water/electricity guy? Come on -- I can't believe he made it through all the auditions and screenings with such a bogus claim.. you input a cubic mile of water, and get TONS of gold out? I also want to know what planet he comes from. Why waste our (and the Sharks) time with such BS?
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:41 PM   #3
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So they wine guy is good enough friends with Jim Koch to have him on speed dial but apparently not good enough friends to get him to invest. I'm puzzled by that. If the product is that good, you'd think Koch would want a piece of it as well, no?
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:53 PM   #4
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And if there WAS a way to spin gold out of straw, the value of gold would nosedive.
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:07 PM   #5
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So they wine guy is good enough friends with Jim Koch to have him on speed dial but apparently not good enough friends to get him to invest. I'm puzzled by that. If the product is that good, you'd think Koch would want a piece of it as well, no?
That's what the sharks said as well, but I think that whole phone call thing was a setup by the producers to heighten the drama (ratings).
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:15 PM   #6
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Based on what we saw, I didn't think the "wine guy" was being unreasonable. The sharks were asking for a fifty percent discount because they are who they are, and the wine guy decided they weren't worth it. I do think he should've done the deal that Mr. Wonderful offered, the one that was something like $300k for 12%. I believe Kevin would've successfully gotten wine guy to license out the technology, it would've been very lucrative to both of them (making $300k look like peanuts), and the wine guy could still do what he was doing if that's what he wanted.

I can only imagine if the roles were reversed and somebody were offering Mark Cuban a 50% discount for his company... I'm sure Cuban would have some drama of his own to express.

Now the wine guy will go to the bank and just get a loan like any other business. I'm sure in a year we'll get another update that shows he's doing even better.
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Old 04-14-2012, 03:09 PM   #7
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Based on what we saw, I didn't think the "wine guy" was being unreasonable. The sharks were asking for a fifty percent discount because they are who they are, and the wine guy decided they weren't worth it. I do think he should've done the deal that Mr. Wonderful offered, the one that was something like $300k for 12%. I believe Kevin would've successfully gotten wine guy to license out the technology, it would've been very lucrative to both of them (making $300k look like peanuts), and the wine guy could still do what he was doing if that's what he wanted.

I can only imagine if the roles were reversed and somebody were offering Mark Cuban a 50% discount for his company... I'm sure Cuban would have some drama of his own to express.

Now the wine guy will go to the bank and just get a loan like any other business. I'm sure in a year we'll get another update that shows he's doing even better.
I agree that them all wanting 30% for 600k was not in the wine guy's best interest to take but yeah, he should have taken the 12% for 300k.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:24 PM   #8
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So they wine guy is good enough friends with Jim Koch to have him on speed dial but apparently not good enough friends to get him to invest. I'm puzzled by that. If the product is that good, you'd think Koch would want a piece of it as well, no?
Who knows, Koch may have an interest in Copa Da Vino as part of his advisory role like Woz does with the TEC clothing guy.

Wish the Sharks would've asked the Blondie cookie woman why she decided to expand on the opposite end of the country instead of regionally; why Florida instead of Michigan, Illinois or Ohio.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:42 PM   #9
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Based on what we saw, I didn't think the "wine guy" was being unreasonable. .
Oh, I think he was being very coy. Maaaaaaaayyyyybbbeeee I wiiiiiiiiiil. Maaaaaaaaaayyyyyyybbbeeee I wooooooon't. Frankly, he was pissing me off, too.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:56 PM   #10
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Oh, I think he was being very coy. Maaaaaaaayyyyybbbeeee I wiiiiiiiiiil. Maaaaaaaaaayyyyyyybbbeeee I wooooooon't. Frankly, he was pissing me off, too.
I didn't think Mr. Copa "wine guy" was being unreasonable either.

Mr. Wonderful offered him 12% for $300k. So $600k wasn't for 24%, it was for 30%. Then Mark Cuban spun the thing into saying he knew the deal before he walked away to make the phone call, he knew the deal after the call. Ummm, not really. Cuban changed the deal when he left to make the call. When they raised the equity to 30% Mr. Wonderful even said "Do you think he'll go for it?" That clearly shows it wasn't a slam dunk, and definitely pushing it.

And can we ALL agree that anytime a shark asks you to leave the room, you NEVER DO IT. It's obviously they want to team up on you and no longer offer a competing offer to another shark, so you're going to lose in the long run.

I think the "wine guy" did well on the show. The exposure will likely get some investor calling him to quickly offer a better deal than the sharks. On top of that, he owns the technology. If he can't meet orders, then he always has the technology patent to license out later on as a fall back, and the exposure from the show might make big wine makers even more serious about calling him personally to license the distribution method.

I don't think he needs the sharks "wisdom" at all from all three in one deal anyway. I personally feel like Barbara is likely the only one who is actually hands on with these fledgling companies and offers advice. I can't see the owner of an NBA franchise being able to sit down and talk for hours about how to market or license a wine product.

Again, the best problem is business is not having the capital to fill massive orders. You can always just get a loan, especially a company like his with millions in orders.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:11 PM   #11
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Mr. Wonderful offered him 12% for $300k. So $600k wasn't for 24%, it was for 30%.
The thing is, even if it were the same rate... $600k for 24%, that wouldn't have been as good of a deal as $300k for 12%. The reason being that Kevins offer was undervaluing the company (if the guys valuation was correct, which I'd tend to believe it was probably more accurate than Kevin's). So if he took Kevins offer, he's only undervaluing 12% of the company, and when the business grows in a year like he expect, he's got that extra 12% to reap the benefits of growth. However, if he gives away 24%, he's not going to see the growth from that extra 12%.

So if the sharks are going to undervalue his business, then he really was best to give away as little as possible to get them onboard. But Mark went and screwed it all up
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:38 PM   #12
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Wish the Sharks would've asked the Blondie cookie woman why she decided to expand on the opposite end of the country instead of regionally; why Florida instead of Michigan, Illinois or Ohio.

It was so far away, it made no business sense. My guess was so that come tax time she could write off trips to florida as a business expense.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:52 PM   #13
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It was so far away, it made no business sense. My guess was so that come tax time she could write off trips to florida as a business expense.
That's exactly what I said to my g/f during the show.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:12 PM   #14
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The thing is, even if it were the same rate... $600k for 24%, that wouldn't have been as good of a deal as $300k for 12%. The reason being that Kevins offer was undervaluing the company (if the guys valuation was correct, which I'd tend to believe it was probably more accurate than Kevin's). So if he took Kevins offer, he's only undervaluing 12% of the company, and when the business grows in a year like he expect, he's got that extra 12% to reap the benefits of growth. However, if he gives away 24%, he's not going to see the growth from that extra 12%.

So if the sharks are going to undervalue his business, then he really was best to give away as little as possible to get them onboard. But Mark went and screwed it all up
I agree completely and it only furthers my point about Cuban doubling down in a bad deal, and making it even worse by trying to obtain 30%. The deal wasn't the same when he left to make the phone call and when he came back after the call, it was worse. Much worse.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:22 PM   #15
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I also find it interesting how bad these business owners are at negotiating. The wine guy had independent professionals determine the value of his company. When he states this, Cuban said that the true value is only what people are willing to pay, and that's why he should take Cuban's offer. Umm, no. There's a difference between what "people" are willing to pay, and only what five people in a room called sharks are willing to pay. He needed to really come back and act confident that he could get a deal somewhere else and he was giving THEM a second chance to make an opportunity, not the other way around. Just make up some story that Shark Tank was part of the reason for his business success in the first place, so he felt it was honorable to give them first crack at the deal, etc. Tell them Jim Koch wants in and has made an undisclosed offer, but he's back to see if the sharks can beat it, etc.

Who knows, maybe he did say all of those things during editing, but that how I would have spun it in the negotiation process. The sharks needed to bid against themselves for the wine guy to get the best deal. Thus, he needs to let their own greed play against the other sharks. The minute they team up, it's over.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:51 PM   #16
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Cuban changed the deal when he left to make the call.
I think Cuban just wanted to tell the guy off again. He said there wasn't enough "skin in the game" to make it worthwhile and then he offered a deal where his "skin" would only be 10% anyway. That didn't make any sense.

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I also find it interesting how bad these business owners are at negotiating. The wine guy had independent professionals determine the value of his company. When he states this, Cuban said that the true value is only what people are willing to pay, and that's why he should take Cuban's offer...

Who knows, maybe he did say all of those things during editing...
I suspect the editing is always tilted to make the sharks look good or correct. Mark Cuban throwing out a number after talking to the guy for 15 minutes and acting as if that's the only viable number is silly. Just a few minutes earlier Mr. Wonderful had valued the company a half million higher, which still was clearly very low. Cuban's ploy successfully torpedoed the idea of any other shark possibly independently striking a deal with Copa Di Vino, which I think was his ultimate goal anyway.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:14 PM   #17
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So they wine guy is good enough friends with Jim Koch to have him on speed dial but apparently not good enough friends to get him to invest. I'm puzzled by that. If the product is that good, you'd think Koch would want a piece of it as well, no?
I agree and like he said Koch is an adviser and not an investor he should be able to hook wine guy up with investors that do know the beverage industry.

I also wonder how come the sharks never told wine guy that all they are investing in is the IP of the single serve wine. That if they signed on allow them to go license it to other beverage makers and all wine guy has to do is sit at his winery make bad wine and cash checks.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:04 PM   #18
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I also wonder how come the sharks never told wine guy that all they are investing in is the IP of the single serve wine. That if they signed on allow them to go license it to other beverage makers and all wine guy has to do is sit at his winery make bad wine and cash checks.
They tried to tell him exactly that -- several times on BOTH dunks in the tank. Copa Wine guy is just too short-sighted to see that.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:22 PM   #19
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This is interesting.. mentioned in this week's Time Magazine -- "Stacked Wines"

http://stackedwines.com/product

Looks almost the same as Copa de Vino... I wonder who has the patent (or patent application) on what, exactly? The Stacked Wines site has no mention of a patent or patent pending. Are they just using the same concept until the patent for Copa is granted, which could be several years.

Are patent violations retro-active?
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:06 AM   #20
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This is interesting.. mentioned in this week's Time Magazine -- "Stacked Wines"

http://stackedwines.com/product

Looks almost the same as Copa de Vino... I wonder who has the patent (or patent application) on what, exactly? The Stacked Wines site has no mention of a patent or patent pending. Are they just using the same concept until the patent for Copa is granted, which could be several years.

Are patent violations retro-active?
The difference: Stacked Wines are sold as a four pack. Copa de Vino is sold as singles.
Is that enough to get around a patent? I don't know.

But I think the guy was stupid for not taking the final deal with the 3 sharks.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:33 AM   #21
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The difference: Stacked Wines are sold as a four pack. Copa de Vino is sold as singles.
Is that enough to get around a patent? I don't know.

But I think the guy was stupid for not taking the final deal with the 3 sharks.
I don't think he was stupid at all.

Last time he was on the show, I'm sure people would have also said he was stupid for not making a deal as well. Now he has a successful brand, and probably knows more about the industry than ever before. Many wine makers are passionate about their products. They are like microbrew beer makers and he likely has a passion for his own product, not just the delivery system. He's sitting pretty on the distribution patent as a fall-back, he got more exposure (and potentially more offers) by just appearing on the show, and he's currently doing well with his business. He is in the driver's seat and doesn't have to be forced into a bad deal if he doesn't want to. Even at 12% for $300k, that's not a great deal. Cuban's deal offer? Even worse.

Just needing capital to fill large volume orders that may require a new facility isn't really a "problem" at all. If he doesn't fill that order, he's still probably going to max out capacity at his current facility and still do quite well.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:19 AM   #22
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I don't think he was stupid at all.

Last time he was on the show, I'm sure people would have also said he was stupid for not making a deal as well. Now he has a successful brand, and probably knows more about the industry than ever before. Many wine makers are passionate about their products. They are like microbrew beer makers and he likely has a passion for his own product, not just the delivery system. He's sitting pretty on the distribution patent as a fall-back, he got more exposure (and potentially more offers) by just appearing on the show, and he's currently doing well with his business. He is in the driver's seat and doesn't have to be forced into a bad deal if he doesn't want to. Even at 12% for $300k, that's not a great deal. Cuban's deal offer? Even worse.

Just needing capital to fill large volume orders that may require a new facility isn't really a "problem" at all. If he doesn't fill that order, he's still probably going to max out capacity at his current facility and still do quite well.
The problem is the disconnect with this guy. He can't separate his wine making from the packaging patent. He wants to concentrate on making wine and he wants to sell his wine in the single serve. What they were all saying is his wine is not that good and to license the packaging to other wine makers.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:20 AM   #23
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So they wine guy is good enough friends with Jim Koch to have him on speed dial but apparently not good enough friends to get him to invest. I'm puzzled by that. If the product is that good, you'd think Koch would want a piece of it as well, no?
That was exactly the Shark's point: All these "experts" were telling this guy what his company is worth, yet NONE of them are investing any money in him. The old adage of something is only worth what somebody will pay for it.

At the core, the Sharks didn't agree with his evaluation of the company....that and the guy is just an idiot for not realizing that the BILLION dollar potential is in the licensing, not in making your own brand of wine.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:26 AM   #24
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That was exactly the Shark's point: All these "experts" were telling this guy what his company is worth, yet NONE of them are investing any money in him. The old adage of something is only worth what somebody will pay for it.

At the core, the Sharks didn't agree with his evaluation of the company....that and the guy is just an idiot for not realizing that the BILLION dollar potential is in the licensing, not in making your own brand of wine.
Right. Especially since everyone's taste vary on wine and his probably isn't all that grand. It's the packaging that's the money maker. Even I thought it was damn cool and I'm not a wine drinker.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:31 AM   #25
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The problem is the disconnect with this guy. He can't separate his wine making from the packaging patent. He wants to concentrate on making wine and he wants to sell his wine in the single serve. What they were all saying is his wine is not that good and to license the packaging to other wine makers.
That's not a disconnect as it's his option not theirs. Think about it, the sharks want to force him into making a deal. Of course the sharks will say his wine isn't good. His sales say otherwise and he is literally back on the show because he needs more capital to build another production facility for his wine. If the delivery method is the key to his wine sales, then so be it. He owns the patent and can fall back on the single-serve delivery distribution licensing at anytime. Or maybe he never will if his own wine brand continues to sell well. It's selling very well and he can't keep up with demand. That's a good thing.

It's funny how these shows no doubt edit them to make the guy look bad. They definitely did it with the Scottvest guy and after reading his Facebook posts and getting a bit more backstory on his situation, it was clear that all was not what it seems. Cuban's final deal sucked. His pondering over the deal could have taken place over a 2hr negotiation for all we know, and they edited it to make it look like he was stalling. I think he was very smart in not taking the shark's deal.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:59 AM   #26
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I would bet, that the reason his wine is selling is NOT because it tastes great, but because of the packaging.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:49 PM   #27
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Darn, when I heard they were bringing someone back, I was hoping it was for a new invention.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:53 PM   #28
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Wish the Sharks would've asked the Blondie cookie woman why she decided to expand on the opposite end of the country instead of regionally; why Florida instead of Michigan, Illinois or Ohio.
Wasn't there some kind of halfhearted explanation? Relatives there or something? (I'm thinking of elderly staying in Florida in the winter kind of thing.)
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:56 PM   #29
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I do now want to go try a Blondie's Cookies.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:57 PM   #30
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But they're probably something like $2/cookie.
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