My journey back to TiVo? - Windows Media Center is dying

[HerronScott]

Originally Posted by aaronwt

Most people still listen through TV speakers.

I know it's always funny when people get their first 5.1 system and ask me about it. I got my first multichannel system in 1991. And went 7.1 in 2001. But Most people seem to still use the TV speakers and an old 5.1 system is new to them in 2012.
Obviously not the people on the forums, but your average person.

I'm not really surprised by the number of people that still listen through TV speakers. I am surprised when I hear people that have AV setups and don't use them all the time.

Scott

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by LoadStar

Normalize your sound from your PC, then always adjust it from the TV (or whatever other amplifier you might end up using. Never touch the PC volume again.

If the audio is being transmitted via HDMI (bitstreamed) or S/PDIF then you will not have any control over the volume. That is handled by your preamplifier.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I would guess that the Tivo is limiting the audio output.

Nope. IIRC, the Elite is THX certified, and modifying the audio stream by a source device is strictly verboten by THX specs.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by aaronwt

Most people still listen through TV speakers.

That's a sad thought. (The majority of my TVs don't even have speakers.)

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by lrhorer

Nope. IIRC, the Elite is THX certified, and modifying the audio stream by a source device is strictly verboten by THX specs.

I wasn't aware of that. It certainly explains the premium price, even though it has four tuners. I'm surprised Tivo developed another THX model after the S3. It really adds nothing to the value of the Tivo for most people. I'd be surprised if the vast majority of Elite owners could tell the difference in quality between an Elite and a standard Premiere. THX is nothing more than a marketing gimmick to add a higher price to consumer audio electronics since it requires a license fee to Lucas Labs..

[SullyND]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I'm surprised Tivo developed another THX model after the S3.

S3, THD XL, Premiere XL, Elite are all THX.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I wasn't aware of that. It certainly explains the premium price, even though it has four tuners. I'm surprised Tivo developed another THX model after the S3. It really adds nothing to the value of the Tivo for most people.

That's nonsense. The fact they do not realize the fact does not mean it is not a fact.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I'd be surprised if the vast majority of Elite owners could tell the difference in quality between an Elite and a standard Premiere.

It is fairly likely there is no physical difference, but that is not the point. A certification means the unit is guaranteed to meet those specs. An un-certified unit may or may not. This is beside the main point, however. The fact the spec exists sets a bar for all devices. Some attain that bar, and others do not, but without it there is no metric for performance.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

THX is nothing more than a marketing gimmick to add a higher price to consumer audio electronics since it requires a license fee to Lucas Labs..

Again, that's nonsense. Yes, the licensing fee does cost extra, but then so does the engineering that accompanies the ability to meet those specifications. That engineering and those specs are not trivial. Does it make a notiable difference in a specific instance? Perhaps or perhaps not, but I guarantee you there are un-certified systems that do not meet the spec whose performance is lousy. I guarantee you there are no (properly functioning) certified devices that perform poorly.

[mr.unnatural]

For god's sake, man. I finally agree with you about something and you still couldn't resist picking it apart.

THX certification has absolutely nothing to do with physical appearance so I'm not sure where you came up with that. My point is that THX certification didn't do anything special for the S3 other than jack the price up, which is probably why Tivo didn't add it to subsequent models. There's absolutely no reason why Tivo Engineers can't make a device that meets THX certification specs without paying extra just to have the THX stamp of approval. Having the THX logo on the device is just a marketing gimmick, plain and simple. People think that having it means something extra special when all it's saying is that the product meets the minimum requirements set forth by Lucas Labs.

THX certification was originally intended for movie theaters so they would adhere to some sort of standard. Many theaters used antiquated playback equipment and THX certification was meant to spark the industry into bringing their hardware up to date. It spilled over to consumer electronic devices as a means for Lucas Labs to get more revenue. It was a good idea at the outset but quickly lost it's meaning when it spilled over into the consumer electronics area.

Most mid to high level Home Theater components should already exceed those requirements. Having it on a Tivo is utterly useless, especially if you're using your TV speakers for playback or bitstreaming the audio via HDMI to your A/V receiver or preamp/processor. The Tivo does absolutely nothing to process the sound when using the HDMI output, making THX certification totally moot.

[aaronwt]

But doesn't the THX certification apply to audio and video? So even if someone is just using the TV speakers, it could still apply to the video. And there are THX certified TVs as well.

There are tons of products with THX certification. I don't see why TiVo has to be any different than the other manufacturers. It does give them a way to differentiate a product and maybe try to justify a higher price to the consumer. Whether that higher price is justified though is up to the consumer. But see how TiVo had THX certification for the original S3 and then the TiVo HD XL and then the Premiere XL and now the Premiere ELITE.

They obviously feel that the THX certification helps them. In the end they are the ones that know for sure whether it helps their sales and seeing how the Elite is the fourth TiVo since 2006 to have THX certification, it must help them. Otherwise after 5+ years offering these THX certified TiVos you would think they would stop offering TiVos with the certification.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by aaronwt

But doesn't the THX certification apply to audio and video? So even if someone is just using the TV speakers, it could still apply to the video. And there are THX certified TVs as well.

There are tons of products with THX certification. I don't see why TiVo has to be any different than the other manufacturers. It does give them a way to differentiate a product and maybe try to justify a higher price to the consumer. Whether that higher price is justified though is up to the consumer. But see how TiVo had THX certification for the original S3 and then the TiVo HD XL and then the Premiere XL and now the Premiere ELITE.

They obviously feel that the THX certification helps them. In the end they are the ones that know for sure whether it helps their sales and seeing how the Elite is the fourth TiVo since 2006 to have THX certification, it must help them. Otherwise after 5+ years offering these THX certified TiVos you would think they would stop offering TiVos with the certification.

THX certification applies to the entire playback system as a whole as well as individual components. Unless every component in the system is THX-certified and calibrated for proper playback, having just one or two components that meet the criteria won't give you a 100% THX-certified system. OTOH, setting a given component to a THX setting won't necessarily give you the best performance either. It will just give you sound and video that meets the THX criteria, which may not necessarily be the best performance you can get out of that particular hardware. The idea is to be able to have any system meet a set of performance criteria that will provide consistency from system to system.

For example, I've got an Onkyo Pro preamp/processor that has a THX setting for surround playback. I don't use it because the Pure Audio setting provides better sound quality. THX is simply another option in a whole laundry list of settings I can choose from.

Tivo adds THX certification to justify selling at a higher price. They probably pay something like $5 to add the THX logo to every Tivo they sell but charge you an extra $50 for that little badge on the box. My point is, if Tivo Engineered their DVRs to provide quality performance they shouldn't need to have the THX certification just to confirm that they designed it correctly. The lack of a THX logo on a device doesn't mean it isn't as good or better than a similar device that's been certified. It's nothing morer than a marketing ploy to get people to pay more for their premium DVRs. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the audio and video circuitry in the Elite is the same as what's in the basic Premiere.

[aaronwt]

But they do keep coming out with new TiVos with the THX certification. So their research must show it makes a difference in sales. Otherwise why keep paying the extra for certification if it doesn't help your bottom line?

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

THX certification has absolutely nothing to do with physical appearance so I'm not sure where you came up with that.

Do you mean the outward appearance of the equipment cabinets? Of course not. I never said anything even remotely like that. If you mean the video reproduction, then it most certainly does relate to the accuracy of the video reproduction.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

My point is that THX certification didn't do anything special for the S3 other than jack the price up

That's a chicken /egg argument. Once the S3 was designed meeting THX requirements, the certification was no more than a guarantee of it meeting those requirements, but you can't reasonably pull the process apart like that. If the TiVo had not been engineered from the outset to meet those requirements, then it is likely it would not have done. Having done so, however, the certification is just that: a certification.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

which is probably why Tivo didn't add it to subsequent models.

But they did add it to subsequent models.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

There's absolutely no reason why Tivo Engineers can't make a device that meets THX certification specs without paying extra just to have the THX stamp of approval.

True, but having done so, there is also a good argument to go ahead and obtain the certification.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Having the THX logo on the device is just a marketing gimmick, plain and simple. People think that having it means something extra special when all it's saying is that the product meets the minimum requirements set forth by Lucas Labs.

Which is saying a great deal. Those specs are not easy to meet. A lot of professional gear does not qualify.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

THX certification was originally intended for movie theaters so they would adhere to some sort of standard.

Correct.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Many theaters used antiquated playback equipment and THX certification was meant to spark the industry into bringing their hardware up to date.

There is a significant amount of older gear that can meet the specs, and a lot of modern gear that does not.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

It spilled over to consumer electronic devices as a means for Lucas Labs to get more revenue. It was a good idea at the outset but quickly lost it's meaning when it spilled over into the consumer electronics area.

Whether consumer or professional gear, if the gear meets the spec, then it can reproduce the original content with specific limits on artifacts and aberrations. That has not changed with the offer to certify CE gear.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Most mid to high level Home Theater components should already exceed those requirements.

Not so much. In my days as a CATV engineer, I worked with a lot of very expensive gear that did not even come close. Even today, meeting the reproduction quality required by THX specs is not trivial.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Having it on a Tivo is utterly useless, especially if you're using your TV speakers for playback or bitstreaming the audio via HDMI to your A/V receiver or preamp/processor. The Tivo does absolutely nothing to process the sound when using the HDMI output, making THX certification totally moot.

If it *DID* process the audio, per your earlier suggestion (limiting the audio level) then it would not meet the THX spec, so WRT this discussion, the point is anything but moot.

OTOH, it is true meeting the THX spec for a source device is not difficult if both the source material and the output are digital and the device does no processing. That's one of the beauties of digital.

[lrhorer]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

THX certification applies to the entire playback system as a whole as well as individual components.

It applies to the entire environment.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Unless every component in the system is THX-certified and calibrated for proper playback, having just one or two components that meet the criteria won't give you a 100% THX-certified system.

True, but every component that meets THX specs (certified or not) will contribute to the performance in a very specific and predictable way, with well established limits on how much unwanted information is added to the signal and how much of the desirable information is lost.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

The idea is to be able to have any system meet a set of performance criteria that will provide consistency from system to system.

That's part of the idea, yes. The idea is not only uniformity, but also accuracy.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

For example, I've got an Onkyo Pro preamp/processor that has a THX setting for surround playback. I don't use it because the Pure Audio setting provides better sound quality. THX is simply another option in a whole laundry list of settings I can choose from.

If every aspect of your system (which includes the speakers, the walls, the floor, the ceiling, etc.) met THX certification, then that "THX" setting would produce a very accurate reproduction of the original content. Whether you would find that most pleasing or not is a subjective matter.

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the audio and video circuitry in the Elite is the same as what's in the basic Premiere.

It probably is. No one said a device cannot meet the THX spec just because it is not certified.

[trip1eX]

Funny arguing the merits of THX certification when talking about cable tv(-delivered) content.

[dsnotgood]

some people have wayyyy too much time on their hands to argue about thx certification...

Also gotta love the windows media apologists in here who blame the user instead of the crappy wmc setup. I am guessing these were the same people in the days of DOS that said windows was dumb because it had a graphical gui.

[mr.unnatural]

My main argument is that if a device meets the THX certification requirements, getting the actual certification is a marketing gimmick that tacks on added cost just to have the THX logo. Whether the customer gets any benefit from it is a complete unknown. The marketing strategy is that when a consumer sees the THX logo he automatically assumes that box A with the logo is going to better than box B that does not have it. The result is that the price will be considerably higher for a box with THX than one that does not have it.

The only ones that will ever see a benefit from THX hardware will be the diehard home theater enthusiasts that strive to build a home theater that meets THX requirements from top to bottom. I have no doubt that there are a handfull of HT geeks out there that would go the extra mile to have their own THX home theater, but they're going to be few and far between. The vast majority of Tivo owners aren't going to have systems configured to meet THX specs so buying a Tivo that's THX-certified is simply overkill and a completely unnecessary expense. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of Tivo owners have never even adjusted their TV sets using a calibration DVD or Blu-Ray disc. I'd also bet that the number one reason people buy the XL Tivos is because of the larger hard drives. Most people buy the Elites for the four tuners.

[aaronwt]

and the 2TB hard drive.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by aaronwt

and the 2TB hard drive.

Undoubtedly. Then again, the size of the drive required depends entirely on how you use your Tivo. I'm amazed that so many people hoard TV shows and use their Tivos for long-term storage. My HTPC has access to 11 tuners and I only have a 1.5TB drive for recordings. I record everything I watch, and I watch more than the average person, but I also watch everything I record as soon as I can and delete it after viewing. I figure I only need storage for up to three weeks' worth of recordings in the event I have to travel on business.

If you've got small kids, then keeping a lot of shows available for them makes sense, although having a NetFlix streaming account with access to countless kid's shows is a huge plus. Other than that, keeping archived shows on a Tivo is just a disaster waiting to happen. If they mean that much to you then you should be offloading them to another medium for long-term storage. A Tivo drive is a ticking time bomb waiting to implode. It could happen today or it could happen five years from now, but it's going to happen. When it does you can kiss all those shows goodbye.

[aaronwt]

I have 6TB of storage on my TiVo Desktop server. I can always offload content from my TiVos to that. And if I fill that up, I have around 100TB of total storage available on my Network between my WHS, two unRAID boxes, and my NAS devices.

[mattack]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Undoubtedly. Then again, the size of the drive required depends entirely on how you use your Tivo. I'm amazed that so many people hoard TV shows and use their Tivos for long-term storage. My HTPC has access to 11 tuners and I only have a 1.5TB drive for recordings. I record everything I watch, and I watch more than the average person, but I also watch everything I record as soon as I can and delete it after viewing. I figure I only need storage for up to three weeks' worth of recordings in the event I have to travel on business.

I have had Tivo drives go (but hope to resurrect at least one of them -- one of them is software related, one 'died' soon before the Tivo it was in did)..

But I do think having more than 3 weeks is good -- because you can then "bank up" shows for the summer. I actually like some reality shows (gasp!), so there IS new stuff airing during the summer, but not as much as during the main season. So you can record lots of stuff and keep it for a while..

but again, there is the risk of the dying hard drive.

Back when drive prices come down to sane prices again, I do think I'll probably try to back up a lot more stuff. Nowadays I'm offloading just because I have the orig "tiny" Tivo HD drive in there, and I'm not even recording HD stuff (except once last week when a ARWL caught a 2 HR HD program and wiped out a bunch of my stuff).

[unitron]

Originally Posted by mattack

...

Back when drive prices come down to sane prices again...

I have a nasty nagging suspicion that when they start to come down again it'll only be on new 4K sector drives that will only work well with new computer motherboards and OS'es, and older computers and TiVos will be royally screwed.

[slowbiscuit]

The Seagate Greens are 4k drives with 'SmartAlign' which is supposed to map old OS sector access to 4ks in the firmware. The one I just installed in a Premiere works fine, not sure if it works in the HD.

[slowbiscuit]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

Undoubtedly. Then again, the size of the drive required depends entirely on how you use your Tivo. I'm amazed that so many people hoard TV shows and use their Tivos for long-term storage. My HTPC has access to 11 tuners and I only have a 1.5TB drive for recordings. I record everything I watch, and I watch more than the average person, but I also watch everything I record as soon as I can and delete it after viewing. I figure I only need storage for up to three weeks' worth of recordings in the event I have to travel on business.

+1, I've never understood the hoarding either. I have way too much stuff to watch as it is with current shows, and now that some cable channels are running new stuff in the summer (Burn Notice, Falling Skies, etc.) there's no lack of something to watch with just a few older series saved on my Tivos.

[tootal2]

my ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe is on the way

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by tootal2

my ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe is on the way

[tootal2]

Originally Posted by mr.unnatural

I got the ceton card installed with a cable card. i can record 6 channels at 1 time. 4 cable and 2 ota. dont know what i am going to do with my tivo hd.

[unitron]

Originally Posted by tootal2

... dont know what i am going to do with my tivo hd.

Well, you could give it to me.

[tootal2]

Originally Posted by unitron

Well, you could give it to me.

I think im just going to move it to my bedroom. also thinking of replacing the 2 s cards in it with a m card to save 2.00 a month. 2.00 a month for a dvr in my bedroom seems good to me. its a lifetime tivo.

[mr.unnatural]

Originally Posted by tootal2

I got the ceton card installed with a cable card. i can record 6 channels at 1 time. 4 cable and 2 ota. dont know what i am going to do with my tivo hd.

I had my HTPC set up at one point with two Ceton InfiniTV 4's and two Hauppauge 2250's. I ran a test to see if it would record twelve HD channels at once (8 digital FIOS and four OTA). It not only worked great but I was able to play back a 13th HD show at the same time that I had previously recorded.

The beauty of an HTPC is that once you get past the initial investment in the PC, you can add more tuners for a fraction of what a Tivo with service costs you.

[unitron]

Originally Posted by tootal2

I think im just going to move it to my bedroom. also thinking of replacing the 2 s cards in it with a m card to save 2.00 a month. 2.00 a month for a dvr in my bedroom seems good to me. its a lifetime tivo.

Unfortunately for me that sounds like a very reasonable plan.