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Old 10-11-2011, 05:31 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post
If you're referring to main memory (RAM), 1GB does seem a little light these days. And I didn't realize that the Premiere has only 500MB (somebody said, I think). A current Windows machine with only 500MB or even 1GB would surely be starved for memory. I know Premieres run Linux, which should use memory much more efficiently, but they are also running Flash, which probably doesn't, and video data uses lots of memory.

Has anybody ever tried to add memory to a TiVo? Could that be done? Would the OS recognize it? Does anybody feel daring?

some of the S1's had the spots on the motherboard to add more chips. If I recall some soldered on the required chips and were able to get tivo to recognize the added memory. But the discussion at the time was tivo had to include the code for X or Y in memory so you couldn't just toss on Z and it wold work.

So likely the premier and elite are built to deal with just 512 and even if you could physically add more the tivo would only use the 512.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:07 PM   #62
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wrong forum.
What is? The Elite? It is a Series 4 Premiere... nearly the same as the other Series 4 Premiere. Seems like the right forum to me.

I find the thread fascinating...
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:13 PM   #63
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I think they posted something in the wrong forum and then edited it instead of deleting it.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:18 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post
If you're referring to main memory (RAM), 1GB does seem a little light these days. And I didn't realize that the Premiere has only 500MB (somebody said, I think). A current Windows machine with only 500MB or even 1GB would surely be starved for memory. I know Premieres run Linux, which should use memory much more efficiently, but they are also running Flash, which probably doesn't, and video data uses lots of memory.
Tivo runs linux, that isn't as memory hungry as Windows. 512MB system memory seems to be fine, since people are saying the Elite is preforming much better then the Premiere, with essentially the same hardware.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:30 PM   #65
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Tivo runs linux, that isn't as memory hungry as [MS-]Windows.
That is the understatement of the year Plus, just as importantly, it is an embedded system, so there is an extremely short/narrow list of apps running.

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512MB system memory seems to be fine, since people are saying the Elite is preforming much better then the Premiere, with essentially the same hardware.
The Elite is "the Premiere"

I see this is going to cause endless terminology issues. I propose we call the Non-Elite Premiere the "NE Premiere" or "OG Premiere" (Original Premiere). The NE Premiere and NE Premiere XL are absolutely identical in every way except hard drive size, so they are both "NE Premiere", essentially.

Anyway, as far as memory variation (which we all now know: there is none in the series 4)... The Elite is, afterall, still a series 4. TiVo seems to have a hard enough time fixing bugs and making updates available without having systems with too many varying specs. I am very confident they are going to push the same build of "firmware" (Linux OS, UI, etc) to all the series 4's, just with a few drivers not activated or swapped, and a few settings changed, depending on the model it lands on. Varying things like available memory, number of cores, speed or features of processor, etc, would make such a distribution model much more complicate.

As far as any other changes, I am actually shocked they bothered with MoCA; there are so many other things I would add before something like that (I won't list them all). I don't know ANYONE that uses or plans to use MoCA.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:45 PM   #66
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I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but one great feature on the S3's that has not been carried forward to any of the new systems is the title of the program(s) being recorded on the front display. I'll probably replace one of my S3's with an Elite, but I know I'll miss that feature.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:47 PM   #67
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In terms of MoCA the only justification I can really see for it is the cable companies whined about it not being there enough that they added it. Unless there really are enough households without wired networks and including WiFi N was too expensive comparatively.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:53 PM   #68
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I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but one great feature on the S3's that has not been carried forward to any of the new systems is the title of the program(s) being recorded on the front display. I'll probably replace one of my S3's with an Elite, but I know I'll miss that feature.
The Premiere Elite is a series 4... in most respects it is identical to NE Premiere. That type of change would be worthy of a series 5, but I have a whole laundry list of things far more important... starting with integrated tuning adapter, user removable hard drive, removable flash storage of settings (and maybe even OS), Gigabit, etc....
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:55 PM   #69
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In terms of MoCA the only justification I can really see for it is the cable companies whined about it not being there enough that they added it. Unless there really are enough households without wired networks and including WiFi N was too expensive comparatively.
Most households are not wired with CAT5/6 and WiFi (even N) is not reliable enough to prevent support calls. Now it was definitely a requirement for the cable operators for their version to have MoCA (it allows them to be reliant on only a single infrastructure). You can argue whether a retail box (not just copied from the MSO one) would have had MoCA. I believe if Tivo is serious at all about MRS being a successful addition (sells more boxes and doesn't increase support costs), then it needed to have MoCA. I am betting that any future Tivos will include MoCA.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:59 PM   #70
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As far as any other changes, I am actually shocked they bothered with MoCA; there are so many other things I would add before something like that (I won't list them all). I don't know ANYONE that uses or plans to use MoCA.
Why is that shocking? The original intent for the Elite was to sell to cable companies as a whole home DVR solution, so MoCA was basically required.

Also there are plenty of people in this very forum already using MoCA bridges with Series 3 & Series 4 TiVos, me included. BKDTV and others are who clued me into it in the first place. It's very convenient for those that don't have ethernet wired throughout the house but do have coax going everywhere and works a lot more reliably than any wireless solution.
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Old 10-11-2011, 07:21 PM   #71
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Why is that shocking? The original intent for the Elite was to sell to cable companies as a whole home DVR solution, so MoCA was basically required.

Also there are plenty of people in this very forum already using MoCA bridges with Series 3 & Series 4 TiVos, me included. BKDTV and others are who clued me into it in the first place. It's very convenient for those that don't have ethernet wired throughout the house but do have coax going everywhere and works a lot more reliably than any wireless solution.
Not to hijack the thread but what are you using as your MOCA Bridge.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:05 PM   #72
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Not to hijack the thread but what are you using as your MOCA Bridge.
Motorola NIM100. They were in 1st generation FIOS deployments and you could only buy them on Ebay, not through normal retail channels. I've been using them for many years now (I have 3).
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:05 PM   #73
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Why is that shocking? The original intent for the Elite was to sell to cable companies as a whole home DVR solution, so MoCA was basically required.

Also there are plenty of people in this very forum already using MoCA bridges with Series 3 & Series 4 TiVos, me included. BKDTV and others are who clued me into it in the first place. It's very convenient for those that don't have ethernet wired throughout the house but do have coax going everywhere and works a lot more reliably than any wireless solution.
Heh, after reading your post, I realized something that people are missing. For people with multiple Tivos that want to do MRS, they don't need to choose what networking tech they will use with the Elite. It will just work... That is what MoCA is intended to do. There is no CHOOSING, both sides already have it. No one is suggesting that people use MoCA to connect all their networked devices... (Although for some it might be convenient...)
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:16 PM   #74
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Heh, after reading your post, I realized something that people are missing. For people with multiple Tivos that want to do MRS, they don't need to choose what networking tech they will use with the Elite. It will just work... That is what MoCA is intended to do. There is no CHOOSING, both sides already have it. No one is suggesting that people use MoCA to connect all their networked devices... (Although for some it might be convenient...)
And that's what the 7-port switch device lets it do. It also allows you to aggregate more data between devices at any given time. Ethernet to S3 devices for MRV, Ethernet to non-Elite S4 devices, and Ethernet(and/or)MoCA to other Elite devices in any combination.
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:22 PM   #75
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And that's what the 7-port switch device lets it do. It also allows you to aggregate more data between devices at any given time. Ethernet to S3 devices for MRV, Ethernet to non-Elite S4 devices, and Ethernet(and/or)MoCA to other Elite devices in any combination.
OK, I'm confused. Does this mean that if I am using MoCA on an Elite and also connect the Ethernet port to a switch/router that I can achieve a greater throughput (say for Elite to Elite transfer) than just using Ethernet alone?
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:25 PM   #76
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on the memory-I'm sure that 512 is enough. But a 250gb drive gets the job done too but not as good as a 320, 500 or 1 or 2TB.

For like 38 cents more (ok exaggerating) tivo could put more memory in the things and things would be faster. They would be able to cache that much more of the database and all the graphics and everything else in the new UI.

remember the cachecard for the series 1's? If I recall way back then (I'll guess 8 years?)- someone took the time to build hardware with - if i remember correctly 512 megs. That was the "right size" to cache the series 1 to speed it up. I've got to imagine the newer UI could use even more than that.

It is probably dumb at this point to make a series 4.5 have more than a series 4. But they should have sucked it up and put a gig in everything from day one. I know I know they lose money on each box- but sometimes it's just painful how slow it does things and that has to have some effect over time on sales.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:36 PM   #77
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OK, I'm confused. Does this mean that if I am using MoCA on an Elite and also connect the Ethernet port to a switch/router that I can achieve a greater throughput (say for Elite to Elite transfer) than just using Ethernet alone?
I don't think it'll connect to the same machine via MoCA & Ethernet at the same time but you can connect to a TiVo via Ethernet & another via MoCA and transfer between the two at the maximum rate of the medium being transfered on. Or if your Elite is connected via 1G you could technically feed multiple 100 MB connections and MoCA at the same time. The Elite is defintely designed to provide multiple feeds at once.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:40 PM   #78
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remember the cachecard for the series 1's? If I recall way back then (I'll guess 8 years?)- someone took the time to build hardware with - if i remember correctly 512 megs. That was the "right size" to cache the series 1 to speed it up.
I never had one, but I think the major (or only?) thing it sped up is the time to get back to the Now Playing list.. (which is ~15 seconds or so.. I still use my S1 as an analog backup recorder, esp as my TivoHD is dying)
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:16 PM   #79
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Heh, after reading your post, I realized something that people are missing. For people with multiple Tivos that want to do MRS, they don't need to choose what networking tech they will use with the Elite. It will just work... That is what MoCA is intended to do. There is no CHOOSING, both sides already have it. No one is suggesting that people use MoCA to connect all their networked devices... (Although for some it might be convenient...)
Exactly. I didn't think about it that way either until reading moyekj's posting (mostly because I only have, and will only ever have, a single TiVo). Seems to make perfect sense now.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:23 PM   #80
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For like 38 cents more (ok exaggerating) tivo could put more memory in the things and things would be faster. They would be able to cache that much more of the database and all the graphics and everything else in the new UI.
See the other thread... it is unlikely TiVo would do much, to what is still the series 4, that would change compatibility of their OS image.

Quote:
remember the cachecard for the series 1's? If I recall way back then (I'll guess 8 years?)- someone took the time to build hardware with - if i remember correctly 512 megs. That was the "right size" to cache the series 1 to speed it up. I've got to imagine the newer UI could use even more than that.
The cachecard was a hard drive cache, not main RAM. Linux will already effectively cache the hard drive as needed- plus hard drives of today already contain much, much larger caches and have a much faster throughput. I don't think the slow HDUI would benefit much from increased hard drive speed, anyway. That is not where it is "stuck" (it is with CPU and with a bad overall design that depends on live internet downloaded objects).
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:44 AM   #81
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It's obvious now from the lack of major changes in the Elite model that we will not see a huge hardware shift until the S5 devices which if the info in the version 16 kernel is correct will be a CPU more in line with what modern cell phones have now. At that point larger amounts of RAM will make more sense as more and more applications would be capable of being run and Flash AIR would gobble up memory.

I'm excited to get the 14.9 for my non-Elite S4 to see what types of benefits we get from that. After that I think the version 16 software looks like it could provide another system boost on top of what we'll be seeing from 14.9 when/if it arrives.
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:55 AM   #82
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MoCA setup / performance - two Elites - Question

Posted this in the wrong place last night:

Elite 1 hooked to cable coax and Ethernet port cabled to router connected to modem to Internet. PC running TiVo Desktop connected to same router.

Elite 2 hooked to cable coax (different room). Ethernet port to Ethernet switch that connects Blu-ray player, Apple TV, and a regular Premiere.

All devices would now have Internet access and all three Tivo boxes and the PC will see each other without the need for any other MoCA adapter, correct?

I was looking at the Channel Master CM-6004 (MoCA adapter with 4 port FastEthernet switch), but I don't think I need it with the above setup, if I understand what the Elite MoCA bridge does.
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:45 PM   #83
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Device #9 on the diagram is likely the OOB tuner for cablecard, which continually receives activation/service messages.

Interesting to see the PSU is 12V only. That makes it a lot easier to replace, at least to jerry rig something if one has to. Near the PSU connector is a spot for a coaxial power connector, likely also developmental.
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:14 PM   #84
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I never had one, but I think the major (or only?) thing it sped up is the time to get back to the Now Playing list.. (which is ~15 seconds or so.. I still use my S1 as an analog backup recorder, esp as my TivoHD is dying)
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See the other thread... it is unlikely TiVo would do much, to what is still the series 4, that would change compatibility of their OS image.



The cachecard was a hard drive cache, not main RAM. Linux will already effectively cache the hard drive as needed- plus hard drives of today already contain much, much larger caches and have a much faster throughput. I don't think the slow HDUI would benefit much from increased hard drive speed, anyway. That is not where it is "stuck" (it is with CPU and with a bad overall design that depends on live internet downloaded objects).
my recollection was it wasn't specifically just a plain hard drive cache but rather it was specifically made so that the tivo's database fit on it so that anything you did in the menu's like go to NPL or reorder season passes was much faster. I beleive it also was somehow able to figure out to cache the database and not normal video streams (perhaps it only cached certain partitions?). maybe a modern drive cache has firmware that can be taught not to cache the video streams but the other stuff too?

I believe the thought was at the time was that when the database had to be manipulated much of the delays were related to having to move stuff back and forth out of memory and on and off the drive, and since the drive needs to prioritize the video streams anything else that needs to access the hard drive is slowed down.

I can't say on a S4- but i know that every tivo I've had, S1 directivo, S2 directivo, s2.5 directivo, S2DT, S3 all are slow as molasses reordering season passes or scheduling new programs or the like. So I'd assume any tivo could benefit from having enough ram to keep it's database in ram. I also assume that over the years the database has only grown and so when 512meg was enough for an S1 to successfully keep the database in memory it wouldn't be enough today.

I know that I've made a lot of assumptions and where that usually gets you in life but i think they're sound.

So I think that if tivo built all S4 boxes with more memory and then tweaked their code to use that larger store of memory (cache some stuff so it doesn't have to hunt the net the instant you hit the menus as an example) that the box would be snappier in many respects. I am not really a techie so my opinion here come from reading these forums for 8-10 years and nothing more. So again take the soruce for what it's worth.

from the cachecard website:
http://www.9thtee.com/tivocachecard.htm
Quote:
Caching - The Tivo database is large (512MB) and every user-interface operation goes back to hard drive to read from the database - the same hard drive that is already busy reading and writing multiple high bit-rate video streams. The CacheCARDTM caches the entire database in high speed SDRAM so all database reads can be fulfilled instantly, rather than joining the queue for access to the hard drive. Database writes go directly to the hard drive so the Tivo database is always protected and is up-to-date on the hard drive.

The result?
A general speedup of the user-interface and halving the time of long operations such as re-arranging season passes.

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Old 10-12-2011, 02:45 PM   #85
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Posted this in the wrong place last night:

Elite 1 hooked to cable coax and Ethernet port cabled to router connected to modem to Internet. PC running TiVo Desktop connected to same router.

Elite 2 hooked to cable coax (different room). Ethernet port to Ethernet switch that connects Blu-ray player, Apple TV, and a regular Premiere.

All devices would now have Internet access and all three Tivo boxes and the PC will see each other without the need for any other MoCA adapter, correct?

I was looking at the Channel Master CM-6004 (MoCA adapter with 4 port FastEthernet switch), but I don't think I need it with the above setup, if I understand what the Elite MoCA bridge does.
If that works it would be sweet....not sure why it wouldn't
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Old 10-12-2011, 03:18 PM   #86
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All devices would now have Internet access and all three Tivo boxes and the PC will see each other without the need for any other MoCA adapter, correct?
Correct...
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Old 10-12-2011, 03:38 PM   #87
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Posted this in the wrong place last night:

Elite 1 hooked to cable coax and Ethernet port cabled to router connected to modem to Internet. PC running TiVo Desktop connected to same router.

Elite 2 hooked to cable coax (different room). Ethernet port to Ethernet switch that connects Blu-ray player, Apple TV, and a regular Premiere.

All devices would now have Internet access and all three Tivo boxes and the PC will see each other without the need for any other MoCA adapter, correct?

I was looking at the Channel Master CM-6004 (MoCA adapter with 4 port FastEthernet switch), but I don't think I need it with the above setup, if I understand what the Elite MoCA bridge does.
Pardon my ignorance, but are you saying that the ethernet switch at Elite 2 has no standard ethernet connection, and is relying on MoCA between the two Elites to supply the ethernet connection? If so, that is pretty neat. Pretty expensive, but pretty neat.
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Old 10-12-2011, 04:02 PM   #88
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Correct...
Thanks! That will save me some time if something doesn't work.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:30 PM   #89
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Pardon my ignorance, but are you saying that the ethernet switch at Elite 2 has no standard ethernet connection, and is relying on MoCA between the two Elites to supply the ethernet connection? If so, that is pretty neat. Pretty expensive, but pretty neat.
That's what I hope. I haven't hooked it up yet. That room doesn't have Cat5, but does have coax.

Right now, I have a Tivo premiere and the other devices hooked up to a DAP-1522, but swapping that out for a small Dlink switch and using the Elite to bridge the two should provide better sustained performance for the Tivos, the TV and the Apple TV when it comes to streaming video.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:57 PM   #90
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Pardon my ignorance, but are you saying that the ethernet switch at Elite 2 has no standard ethernet connection, and is relying on MoCA between the two Elites to supply the ethernet connection? If so, that is pretty neat. Pretty expensive, but pretty neat.
Yep! That's how MoCA works:



And speeds are around 80mbps, which is close enough to the 10/100 speeds that the Elite supports anyway, so you wouldn't be losing much by using MoCA over Ethernet.
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