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Old 10-05-2011, 03:43 PM   #121
ravingfans
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Of course, meant to say 2GB not 2TB

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Originally Posted by ravingfans View Post
I tried 512MB and 1TB once or twice, but they didn't change the behavior.

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Old 10-05-2011, 06:32 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by denispelletier View Post
I also have this problem (Cary, NC with Time Warner and TivoHD with upgraded hard drive) and tried de-selecting a bunch of channels (everything below 900) and it has not made a difference so far. The GC date is not updating. It's now about one week behind, which correspond to the last time I did the channel lineup trick.
I also have TWC. Related?? Anybody out there have this issue on a system other than TWC??
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:36 PM   #123
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I'm on TWC
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:00 PM   #124
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I'm also on TWC with Cisco TA, here's my saga:

I had experienced no issues prior to attaching a Cisco TA to my upgraded 1TB TivoHD with MCard. Life was swell!


In ~July 2008, I got a Cisco Tuning Adapter. Very soon (I suppose ~7 days) I got my very first "Guide Data running low" message. Quickly figured out that rebooting "fixed" the issue.
Eventually, I unplugged the TA and life was back to normal. (only had limited # of SDV channels)
In early 2010, TWC moved bunch of kiddie channels to SDV, I had no choice but to hook TA back up... Hello "Guide Data Running Low"...

I read this and other forums and swapped my drive out with a new one (Identical drive that is in Tivo XL) S03 came back... (People stop telling me that my drive is faulty)

Tivo told me that this issue only affected very few customers, so I assumed this may have been a Hardware fault. Maybe a bad batch or I had an early model that had an issue since resolved in newer revisions.

... However, now I own 3 of these badboys! (one in 2010 and one in 2011, they were practically free with lifetime subs)

3 Tivo HDs manufactured years apart, all of them having this issue!

Last edited by trackie999 : 10-05-2011 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:15 PM   #125
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I tried Teeps' suggestion to disable network connection (sorta)

Friday 9/30
- Ran Channel Line Up Fix to trigger GC
- Firewalled off Guide Data Server, to make my guide connections fail
- (I already had my channel list paired down to ~600 stations prior to this test)

Saturday 10/1
- I verified that my initial indexing successfully completed
- Enabled network connection and did a regular tivo connection to download guide data
- Firewalled off Guide Data Server, to make my guide connections fail

Tivo was completely left alone (I'm several states away)

Wednesday 10/5
Had wife check System Information Screen for me
- Tivo made a connection and successfully downloaded guide data today (I set up my firewall to allow tivo to connect on wednesdays)
- GC Date is still stuck on 9/30


This didn't work for me, but I also deviated from what Teeps' did.

I'll be home in a few days and will check my logs for clues...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teeps View Post
Interestingly enough after disconnecting TiVo from the internet for 3 days, after doing the the line up fix. The GC on my S3 updated itself from Monday 26Sept to Wednesday 28Sept.

So anecdotally (for me) the disconnection from the internet appears to have a positive effect. Whether it's permanent is still the question.
And, disconnecting from internet is even easier than doing any of the other temporary fixes.

Here's what was done:
Do channel line up "fix." (if it's been done before use all the defaults.)
Uncheck all unused channels in new line up.
Force a service connection.
After service connection is completed; disconnect TiVo from internet until the GC date changes on its own. This could take a couple of days.
Reconnect TiVo to internet.


Last edited by trackie999 : 10-05-2011 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:35 PM   #126
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... See my comments in red

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Originally Posted by ravingfans View Post
My Comments to WO312's questions below:

Thanks for the post. Any attempt to get to the bottom of the problem is refreshing, like trackie999 did earlier.

Trackie999 is looking at my daily logs to confirm if this is a viable path for y'all.

I saved this one for the very end

In my opinion, it sounds plausible, but I have a few questions/comments:

1. I doubt that the tuning adapter adds THAT many more channels compared to the huge list of channels that I have available. I think it's something else associated with the tuning adapter

Probably true. Guess on my part as to the reason for the Tuning Adapter association with the problem--I'm open to other theories.

Reducing the # of channels doesn't seem to directly effect GC. It does help speed up the "preparing to connect" phase of a connection when list of channels you receive is compiled.




2. If this is correct, shouldn't this be happening on every Tivo with a tuning adapter (and presumably an upgraded drive)? Why such an apparently small number of machines being affected?

Might be just a matter of time, but the common points appear to be Tuning Adapter, large upgraded drive. I'm wondering what the population of upgraded S3 and up TiVo's is, and how many just give up on the problem?

Exactly! Why is this only affecting few Tivos?
Is it because we upgraded the drives to 1TB+? Then why aren't all 658 XL models having this issue?
Is it because we used slow/cheap drives that can't keep up? No, I used the exact same drive that is in an XL!
Is it because my drive is failing (S03)? NO!!! I swapped in too many new drives to count and happily used "S03 failed" drives in computers without issues...
Do we have early/faulty units that were superseeded with newer revisions? No, I have 3 TivoHDs manufactured years apart all having this issue.



3. If it IS related to a large number of channels, can I eliminate the problem by de-selecting channels from the channel list? I only use a small number of channels.

de-selecting channels did not work for me on either the old disks or the new disk. I also tried through guided setup to switch to a remote area of the country with limited channel selections and it had no effect.

As I pointed out earlier, it has very little effect.

4. If swap file size matters, any way to change it? I don't recall even an option of selecting the size with the jfms method that you need for a 2 TB drive.

I don't know with JMFS, since I have the original S3 TiVo, that tool is not an option for me. I used WinMFS on a new 2TB drive, and it does allow you the option to set the swap partition to an arbitrary value. I had trouble one time with 4GB of swap--I think I made some other error on that run, but I've found 2GB to be quite solid. I tried 512MB and 1TB once or twice, but they didn't change the behavior.

My thought is on an existing drive it will be quite tricky to change the swap partition without affecting other partitions. Likely you will lose recordings etc--basically anything on partitions past the swap partition which is partition 8. The next partition, 9, is /var which is no biggie to lose, just will lose any logs and also hacks you have installed in that partition, as TiVo will just rebuild it on the next restart. The problem with that though is /var is only 256MB typically, and partition 10, 11 and 12 are in the same range of size and they are the MFS application and MFS media regions. Changing the swap on an already built drive will be tricky to say the least. The path I took was to pick up a 2TB Drive which allows me to keep my shows and settings intact and migrate when I'm ready. Also gives me troubleshooting options if something doesn't go perfectly ;-)


If you have free space at the end of your drive, you can create a new swap partition and you can designate it as partition 8 (partitions do not have to be in logical order) Resizing mfs partitions with recordings on it is complicated on a good day, however is possible.

5. If the larger swap size is working for you, did you have the problem before on a different, upgraded drive?

I had the S03 problem on my original setup which was Weaknees 1TB internal + 1TB external (working for 3 years reliably). Then when I set up a new 2TB drive, the problem persisted even when restoring from the original 250GB drive that came in the S3 as well as the upgraded 1TB + 1TB configuration. This is when I started trying different swap partition sizes.

Ravingfans has been kind enough to share his logs with me. I can confirm that 3 out of 5 garbage collect + full indexing runs completed successfully for him. (1 attempt appears to failed due to a "forced" daily call, the 2nd attempt has failed due to the mysterious exit code eMfsTooFast).

As he pointed out, this is happening on a 2TB drive that is 97% full. I cannot produce a single successful gc + index on 3 TivoHDs and he had 3 successful runs in one week.


To be honest, I can't come up with a reason why creating a 2GB swap fixes this issue or even makes ANY difference.

According to Ravingfans' testing,
1GB swap = no joy
2GB swap = joy

Default swap is 128Mbytes and this appears to be working for majority of tivo owners. I would expect us "minority" users to be barely over this limit and increasing swap just by a few Mbytes would resolve this problem. 2GB is 16x the default swap...


If swap space was an issue, I would expect to see tivo's ram to be full and swap being near full. Instead, I find that RAM has 3-4Mbytes of free space with a bunch of leftover stuff being cached. (linux doesn't like free ram, instead it will cache stuff for future use if there is unused RAM). The swap file sometimes has 1-2 Mbyte stored in it but the remaining 126 MBytes are reported as Free.

If Tivo would ever fill up RAM + swap, I should see kernel panics + reboots happening.


The only situation where a large swap file would make a difference is when you want to allocate a large contiguous memory range. Since default RAM + swap is 256Mbytes, why would Tivo ever want to allocate 1GB+. Besides all this data is stored in a database where you can individually manipulate data elements minimizing any resource requirements.


So, instead of trying to rationalize why this works for him, I will check my bottom drawer for an extra drive and try it myself...



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Old 10-05-2011, 10:53 PM   #127
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(1 attempt appears to failed due to a "forced" daily call, the 2nd attempt has failed due to the mysterious exit code eMfsTooFast).

The forced daily call (10-1-2011) and mfstoofast were right after I successfully divorced the external drive during a separate experiment (trying to go from 2TB to 2.25TB). Since then I've been testing continuously with no forced connect attempts.

BTW, very good points on memory and swap, perhaps it is an internal structure or pointer related to TWC TA's out of control that consumes gobs of space, but cleans up nicely? When you look at memory is it during steady state or after a GC/Indexing run?
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:56 PM   #128
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Is there anybody experiencing this issue with a Motorola TA? I browsed through from the beginning and only saw Cisco TAs being mentioned.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:23 AM   #129
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I am TWC with a Moto TA
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:38 AM   #130
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mine is Moto TA in DFW with TWC
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #131
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Memory-
I checked memory usage a few dozen times while dbgc was and was not running. Memory always appeared to be healthy and I never considered it to be an issue.

CPU-
I messed around with scheduling priorities for garbage collection to see if it was CPU starved but the CPU is usually not that busy. (Tivo's design is ingenious and most I/O operations bypass the mips cpu core, leaving it underwhelmed with tasks. (Search on line for the broadcom chip used in series 3 to read about the architecture.)

HD-
I probably tried 6-7 different Hard drives from Hitachi, Seagate and WD. They were all 7,200 RPM drives with 8, 16 or 32MB cache with 1TB - 1.5TB capacity. (I would only partition up to WinMFS' limit and leave ~0.15TB free on a 1.5TB drive)
None of these drives seemed to eliminate this issue, but I do think that different drives take longer than others to end up with S03 error.

I think my Tivo #1 with Hard drive identical to the XL model's drive tends to go 6-9 months before I would get an S03 error. (I put that Tivo on a timer to reboot daily to keep the guide to date moving and it is almost bearable to clear & delete guide data/reenter season passes once a year)

My 2 newer TivoHDs only last a couple months (maybe 3) before getting S03 errors. (#2 has Seagate 1.5TB 7,200 RPM Drive, #3 has 1TB 7,200RPM WD drive) #3 went S03 in less than a month after I got it!

Ravingfan, would you share HD drive model you are using, RPM and cache size? My hunch is you're using the drive from a 2TB WD Elements external drive

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(1 attempt appears to failed due to a "forced" daily call, the 2nd attempt has failed due to the mysterious exit code eMfsTooFast).

The forced daily call (10-1-2011) and mfstoofast were right after I successfully divorced the external drive during a separate experiment (trying to go from 2TB to 2.25TB). Since then I've been testing continuously with no forced connect attempts.

BTW, very good points on memory and swap, perhaps it is an internal structure or pointer related to TWC TA's out of control that consumes gobs of space, but cleans up nicely? When you look at memory is it during steady state or after a GC/Indexing run?

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Old 10-06-2011, 12:14 PM   #132
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Is there anybody experiencing this issue with a Motorola TA? I browsed through from the beginning and only saw Cisco TAs being mentioned.
So it appears any tuning adapter is an issue. I still haven't seen anybody from a non-TWC system say they have the problem.

Come on, I know you're out there.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:47 PM   #133
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So it appears any tuning adapter is an issue. I still haven't seen anybody from a non-TWC system say they have the problem.

Come on, I know you're out there.
The only theory I can come up with is that channel map updates from the TA adversely affect the box's ability to run GC. However, not knowing where on the hard drive the map updates are stored, I can't offer any quantifiable information that would support this theory.

Can someone experiencing this issue with a Cisco TA post your Serial Link Anomalies diagnostic screen?
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:37 PM   #134
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Ravingfan, would you share HD drive model you are using, RPM and cache size? My hunch is you're using the drive from a 2TB WD Elements external drive


I have a WD Caviar Green 2TB SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive WD20EARS - OEM, 5400 RPM. I've actually had very good results with all WD HDD's as long as the idle timeout was cleared with the WDIDLE3 utility. Tried a Seagate drive ($20 cheaper) but could never get the idle timeout cleared, so went back to WD. In one of my other TiVo's I have a Hitachi, and it works fine, but it is louder.

My personal opinion is drive type doesn't matter except for with head parking/idle timeout issues, but those issues result in lockup/freeze issues long before the S03 error would ever hit.

Also, one more data point: In my case, the S03 error occurred on basically the second or third TiVo Service connection after restoring from either the original 250GB (never had a TA installed on it) or the WK upgraded 1TB + 1TB pair images using WinMFS when I had swap partition set to less than 2GB. It did not take the months and months you described. I haven't seen S03 with the 2GB swap partition.

It had not occurred to me that the "program info running out" message/reboot every two weeks process was associated with the TA's until reading this thread, although now that I think about it, my problems started pretty soon after installing the TA.
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:14 PM   #135
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It had not occurred to me that the "program info running out" message/reboot every two weeks process was associated with the TA's until reading this thread, although now that I think about it, my problems started pretty soon after installing the TA.

Thank you. As did my problem with guide data running out.
TiVo support denies that the T/A has any influence on this problem.
They insist it's a HDD problem.
TiVo support says hdd either faulty or corrupt...
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:43 AM   #136
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Thank you. As did my problem with guide data running out.
TiVo support denies that the T/A has any influence on this problem.
They insist it's a HDD problem.
TiVo support says hdd either faulty or corrupt...
Total BS. I have proven that my system runs great with the tuning adapter disconnected.
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:00 AM   #137
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Total BS. I have proven that my system runs great with the tuning adapter disconnected.
Interesting point, I missed that in this thread. So that means I should be able to go back to my original WK 1TB + 1TB configuration with the S03 error, unplug the TA and it should complete the Guided Setup? I'll try that in a bit...
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:33 AM   #138
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Bump for someone's Serial Link Anomalies screen.
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:44 AM   #139
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Not sure, I haven't seen anything posted about being able to break out of S03 guided set up loop by disconnecting TA. Please try and let us know.

If it doesn't work, you do have a couple other options to try:
- option 1: update state/phoneconfig to show that you completed guided set up. reboot and do a clear and delete program info (you could use fakecall)
- option 2: Kill off UI and run mfscheck. guided set up should be able to complete.


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Originally Posted by ravingfans View Post
Interesting point, I missed that in this thread. So that means I should be able to go back to my original WK 1TB + 1TB configuration with the S03 error, unplug the TA and it should complete the Guided Setup? I'll try that in a bit...

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Old 10-08-2011, 11:49 AM   #140
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Tell them that your Tivo is experiencing issues caused by Tivo bug #86335.

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Thank you. As did my problem with guide data running out.
TiVo support denies that the T/A has any influence on this problem.
They insist it's a HDD problem.
TiVo support says hdd either faulty or corrupt...

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Old 10-08-2011, 12:38 PM   #141
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Ravingfans continues to have his dbgc runs complete without issues, here's his log history for reference. Let's assume this is how a healthy tivo indexes and garbage collects:

10/1 [01491] - 09.87 hrs - FAILED (eFsDibsSaidStop caused by forced call in) - GC + Full Index
10/1 [02157] - 01.97 hrs - FAILED (eMfsTooFast) - GC + Full Index
10/1 [04093] - 13.51 hrs - GC + Full Index
10/2 [07856] - 07.93 hrs - Index Only
10/3 [14918] - 29.73 hrs - GC + Full Index
10/4 [15673] - 06.22 hrs - Index Only
10/5 [22542] - 18.35 hrs - GC + Full Index
10/7 [30458] - 24.23 hrs - GC + Full Index

Ravingfans' Tivo is in a steady state (no reboots & no forced call ins), time required to complete full index with GC is fluctuating with an upward trend...



Let's compare this to my results from this week's experiment with not letting Tivo contact guide server to download new data. (Refer to post #125 in this thread.)

System Info:
Today's Date Oct 8
Program Information to Oct 14 (got the warning of program info running low)
Last successful: Oct 5 17:07 (converted to UTC).
GC September 30
Indexing October 6 4:49 (UTC)
Guide View Cache October 15 (Tivo, please explain how I have my guide data cached to Oct 15 if I only have data until the 14th?)

from my logs:
9/30 [17088] - 00.51 hrs - channel fix preparing to connect garbage collection
9/30 [17176] - 00.33 hrs - channel fix organizing (quicky index)
10/1 [20192] - 05.87 hrs - Index Only (post channel fix complete indexing downloaded data)
10/2 [09549] - 77.89hrs - GC + Full Index FAILED (eFsDibsSaidStop caused by daily call) time stamp 17:16 (UTC)
10/5 [09733] - 00.27 hrs FAILED (eMfsTooFast) - GC + Full Index
10/6 [11842] - 00.27 hrs FAILED (eMfsTooFast) - GC + Full Index
10/6 [12083] - in progress, next GC + Full Index


Apparently 3 days 5 hours is not enough for my Tivo to complete 1 run, no wonder it never completes when the daily call kills it off every ~24 hours.

During the 77 hour and current dbgc run going since 10/6 I am seeing a lot of rubbish collection taking place. During previous runs I would see may be 2-3 mfs objects getting rubbished. In these 2 runs I am seeing hundreds if not thousands of objects being rubbished. This is consistent with what I see in Ravingfans logs, so I am going to let current dbgc run going (currently at 61 hrs).

I am very hopeful for this method to work, I can 100% automate it with my router without effecting any other network functionality (netflix, youtube, transfers, etc) and this method also doesn't stop me from watching/recording shows like channel line up fix does


Update: Here's the memory utilization info ~63 hrs into dbgc:

Memory Statistics:
total: used: free: shared: buffers: cached:
Mem: 130539520 117657600 12881920 0 10391552 75108352
Swap: 133881856 11374592 122507264
MemTotal: 127480 kB
MemFree: 12580 kB
MemShared: 0 kB
Buffers: 10148 kB
Cached: 70216 kB
SwapCached: 3132 kB
PriActive 0 kB
Active: 71692 kB
Inactive: 19796 kB
HighTotal: 0 kB
HighFree: 0 kB
LowTotal: 127480 kB
LowFree: 12580 kB
SwapTotal: 130744 kB
SwapFree: 119636 kB

Last edited by trackie999 : 10-08-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:03 PM   #142
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I had to remove glare and quality is pretty crappy...

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Bump for someone's Serial Link Anomalies screen.

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Old 10-08-2011, 01:21 PM   #143
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Interesting point, I missed that in this thread. So that means I should be able to go back to my original WK 1TB + 1TB configuration with the S03 error, unplug the TA and it should complete the Guided Setup? I'll try that in a bit...
As trackie says, not sure that is confirmed.

What WOULD be interesting is to have an S03 error and see if the channel fix will remove it. That would be great to not have to do a clear and delete almost everything.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:23 PM   #144
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Not sure, I haven't seen anything posted about being able to break out of S03 guided set up loop by disconnecting TA. Please try and let us know.

If it doesn't work, you do have a couple other options to try:
- option 1: update state/phoneconfig to show that you completed guided set up. reboot and do a clear and delete program info (you could use fakecall)
- option 2: Kill off UI and run mfscheck. guided set up should be able to complete.
Tried to break out of guided setup by removing the TA in one attempt, and the TA and Cable Cards in the next attempt, but the TiVo remains convinced it is hooked up to a TA, despite my physical observation! Tried shouting at it, but alas it is deaf.

trackie, could you elaborate on how to update the state/phoneconfig? Also which process kills off the UI? I see 10 instances of podapp, 8 instances of TvLauncher...
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:24 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackie999
I had to remove glare and quality is pretty crappy...
Thanks, trackie. The problem has to do with the channel map updates the TA provides to the Tivo (obviously, as this is the sole purpose of the TA).

When the TA is connected, the Tivo uses the channel map provided to it by the TA. When its not, it defaults to the map provided to it by the CC. Why this would make any difference on GC completing successfully, I have no idea. Trackie, anything in your research that would answer that question?
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:27 PM   #146
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WO312,


DO NOT RUN CHANNEL LINE UP FIX IF YOU RECEIVED S03 ERROR!
YOU WILL GET STUCK IN A NEVER ENDING GUIDED SETUP -> S03 -> REBOOT LOOP!


If you have S03 Error, you can fix it by running "Clear program information & To Do List"

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What WOULD be interesting is to have an S03 error and see if the channel fix will remove it. That would be great to not have to do a clear and delete almost everything.

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Old 10-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #147
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WO312,


DO NOT RUN CHANNEL LINE UP FIX IF YOU RECEIVED S03 ERROR!
YOU WILL GET STUCK IN A NEVER ENDING GUIDED SETUP -> S03 -> REBOOT LOOP!


If you have S03 Error, you can fix it by running "Clear program information & To Do List"
O.K., thanks. I do not have an S03 error now - when I did I cleared it as you said.
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Old 10-08-2011, 04:45 PM   #148
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a year plus ago i started having this problem. I called cs & was told it was an ungraded hdd problem--but the guy also said to try clearing all thumbs & soft restart.
it's not logical but it keeps the nag at bay for a week or two.
I have a S3 with a scientific atlanta adapter.
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Old 10-08-2011, 04:49 PM   #149
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My first attempt would be to update MFS objects to pretend guided set up is complete and last call succeeded.

You need to modify fakecall.tcl to accomplish this (Need to modify it to update /State/GeneralConfig/Configured to 1 257 513)

Once that's done, reboot tivo and cross your fingers

Here is the info for what to change in fakecall.tcl


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravingfans View Post
Tried to break out of guided setup by removing the TA in one attempt, and the TA and Cable Cards in the next attempt, but the TiVo remains convinced it is hooked up to a TA, despite my physical observation! Tried shouting at it, but alas it is deaf.

trackie, could you elaborate on how to update the state/phoneconfig? Also which process kills off the UI? I see 10 instances of podapp, 8 instances of TvLauncher...

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Old 10-09-2011, 01:48 PM   #150
ravingfans
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Posts: 48
thanks Trackie, The hyperlink you inserted has a lot of clutter and doesn't load. Could you type the link out?
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