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Old 09-07-2011, 06:11 PM   #8041
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Yes, the instructions are different, but calling it a different program is confusing.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:15 PM   #8042
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Yes, the instructions are different, but calling it a different program is confusing.
One of the few times rich has even been in the neighborhood of being wrong.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:33 PM   #8043
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New question on original S3 drive sizes I'm just not seeing covered (lord knows I might have missed it in 269 pages) I had asked in another thread, but in review it really should go here.

My current original S3 has 2x 750GB drives and I suspect one is failing, and I want to upgrade. Since 2TB single drives are out, I have the following combo available:
1.5TB Seagate LP 5400RPM
1.0TB WDC Green.

Can I do the 1.35TB on the 1.5TB as my primary and then add the 1.0TB external for what should be right around the max of 2.2TB but a little over? I'd be using winMFS and I have an OEM S3 250GB tbk file.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:56 PM   #8044
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Well, after six or seven years of answering thousands of questions and spending untold hours giving guidance to others on this and a good half-dozen other threads that AFAIK has been correct more often than not...hey, I'm ready to retire and you young bucks take over!

So step up and have fun all!
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:24 PM   #8045
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Well, after six or seven years of answering thousands of questions and spending untold hours giving guidance to others on this and a good half-dozen other threads that AFAIK has been correct more often than not...hey, I'm ready to retire and you young bucks take over!

So step up and have fun all!
Rich,

Don't let a nit picky troll get get you down !

As you see, the know it alls are not here when needed.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:39 PM   #8046
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Well, after six or seven years of answering thousands of questions and spending untold hours giving guidance to others on this and a good half-dozen other threads that AFAIK has been correct more often than not...hey, I'm ready to retire and you young bucks take over!

So step up and have fun all!
Well, outside of guys like Tiger, spike, and comer, if anyone's earned the right to take a well deserved rest from saving the TiVo re-doer community from itself it's you, rich, but that doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.


Any chance you'd be amenable to mediation?
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:07 PM   #8047
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Well, after six or seven years of answering thousands of questions and spending untold hours giving guidance to others on this and a good half-dozen other threads that AFAIK has been correct more often than not...hey, I'm ready to retire and you young bucks take over!

So step up and have fun all!
I hope you're not serious, Rich, although it sounds like you are.

I don't know why you're "ready to retire" and it's none of my business. But I hope it isn't due to anything that's been posted here.

In most organizations or groups, especially non-profit ones, there are a few people who stand out as super-dedicated volunteers who do a huge share of the heavy lifting. You are one of those and I thank you.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:41 PM   #8048
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Rich,

Don't let a nit picky troll get get you down !

As you see, the know it alls are not here when needed.
Are you calling me a "nit picky troll"? If so, kindly have the grace to do so to me personally rather than indirectly, "trolling" for a response. You succeeded. Congratulations.

My only intention was to point out that implying that there are model specific versions of JMFS could lead to confusion when someone went to download it and finds only one, which was designed for the Premiere. My mistake was saying that there were merely separate threads rather than separate instructions.

Mr. Adams,

Please do not cease your participation in this forum due to any actions on my part. I meant no offense. My apologies if you took any. If my ceasing to actively participate in this forum will lead to you reconsidering your decision, consider it done. My stock Premiere is filling up anyway.

FWIW, I qualify for a "senior discount" at Kroger. Please do not leave me to the tender mercies of the "younger" members.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:09 AM   #8049
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I hope you're not serious, Rich, although it sounds like you are.

I don't know why you're "ready to retire" and it's none of my business. But I hope it isn't due to anything that's been posted here.

In most organizations or groups, especially non-profit ones, there are a few people who stand out as super-dedicated volunteers who do a huge share of the heavy lifting. You are one of those and I thank you.
Many thanks and I can honestly say the same about you. Keep up the great work!

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Well, outside of guys like Tiger, spike, and comer, if anyone's earned the right to take a well deserved rest from saving the TiVo re-doer community from itself it's you, rich, but that doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.


Any chance you'd be amenable to mediation?
Carry on sir!

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Mr. Adams,

Please do not cease your participation in this forum due to any actions on my part. I meant no offense. My apologies if you took any. If my ceasing to actively participate in this forum will lead to you reconsidering your decision, consider it done. My stock Premiere is filling up anyway.

FWIW, I qualify for a "senior discount" at Kroger. Please do not leave me to the tender mercies of the "younger" members.
No harm done. Carry on as well.

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Rich,

Don't let a nit picky troll get get you down !

As you see, the know it alls are not here when needed.
Trolls I can handle...it's the people that should know better that wear me out.

Time to move on anyway.

All the best!
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:16 AM   #8050
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Trolls I can handle...it's the people that should know better that wear me out.

Time to move on anyway.

All the best!
Maybe I missed something, but I hope you're not moving on because of an extremely minor semantic scuffle. Does "time to move on anyway" imply that there are other reasons not evident here? If so, I hope they resolve soon and you can stay or come back. I'm relatively new here, but even I recognize your many contributions. Thanks.
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:52 AM   #8051
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Got home last night and found that my Tivo had rebooted and was on the setup screen - awesome! I went through everything, it downloaded schedule info and appears to be working fine BUT when I look at the System Info it says that I have a total of 36 hours HD recording space! This is with the 2tb drive which I thought would give 288 HD hours. I don't think I skipped anything when I put the image on the drive (I know I clicked yes when it asked to use the extra space on the drive and supersize is on in Winmfs) can I pull this drive and put it back in my pc to fix this?

oh, and I did a soft restart and am going to pull the plug now, wait 5 minutes and plug it back in and hope for the best
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:31 AM   #8052
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Got home last night and found that my Tivo had rebooted and was on the setup screen - awesome! I went through everything, it downloaded schedule info and appears to be working fine BUT when I look at the System Info it says that I have a total of 36 hours HD recording space! This is with the 2tb drive which I thought would give 288 HD hours. I don't think I skipped anything when I put the image on the drive (I know I clicked yes when it asked to use the extra space on the drive and supersize is on in Winmfs) can I pull this drive and put it back in my pc to fix this?
I thought you wound up saying you had an original OLED S3? those can't take a 2TB drive as far as I know, thus my questioning the 1.5TB and 1.0TB combo as an option. (though maybe you can do it as 1.35TB and through out the rest of the space)
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:05 AM   #8053
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I thought you wound up saying you had an original OLED S3? those can't take a 2TB drive as far as I know, thus my questioning the 1.5TB and 1.0TB combo as an option. (though maybe you can do it as 1.35TB and through out the rest of the space)
So you think if I were to purchase a 1tb or 1.5 drive it would work ?

I thought it would just use the 1.35tb of the 2tb drive but at this point I just need it to work again.

I am sure someone here knows but can I use the WinMFS method to use this drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136513

in my OLED S3 TCD648250B

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Old 09-08-2011, 02:30 PM   #8054
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Rich,

Don't let a nit picky troll get get you down !

As you see, the know it alls are not here when needed.

Yes...Rich, I had a sign in my office when I was in Colorado working on Disk Drives that said...

"Those of you who walk around here acting like you know everything are pissing off those of us who really do"
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:49 PM   #8055
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So you think if I were to purchase a 1tb or 1.5 drive it would work ?

I thought it would just use the 1.35tb of the 2tb drive but at this point I just need it to work again.

I am sure someone here knows but can I use the WinMFS method to use this drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136513

in my OLED S3 TCD648250B
Yes I believe if you just use 1.35GB of the 2TB it should work, but if I recall there's a caveat of "you can't supersize or it breaks" or something similar which I have to find when I try to put in the 1.5TB I have.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:17 PM   #8056
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Yes I believe if you just use 1.35GB of the 2TB it should work, but if I recall there's a caveat of "you can't supersize or it breaks" or something similar which I have to find when I try to put in the 1.5TB I have.
I'm really not up for re-reading all 260+ pages of this thread and a couple hundred other pages on other threads and other possibly not to be named here sites to be absolutely certain, but I seem to remember reading that the 3 S3 models were each limited to 1.1ish TB plus the size of the original drive with which it left the factory, that at least the first S3, the "thermometer front" one (TCD648xxx) couldn't recognize a 2TB drive regardless of how much or how little of it was used*, but that you could use a 1.5, although you'd only get to use 1.35 of the space on it.

*At least when you use the MFS Tools/MFS Live/WinMFS software to write the partitions and the map, the Apple Partition Map used on TiVo drives tends to make everything at the end beyond the 15 TiVo partitions, the supposedly unpartitioned space, an "Apple Free" partition, although I think it's more of a label than an actual partition.

It may be that the S3 chokes on an "Apple Free" partition map entry over a certain size. If so, then theorectically one could use a 1.5GB drive to upgrade on to, then dd or dd_rescue it to a 2TB drive. That would leave you with a 2TB drive with a 1.5's partiton info at the front, and maybe that would fool the TiVo.

I'm not saying it makes sense to use a 2TB drive to provide 1.35TB of storage if you have a 1.5TB drive available, only that it might work if you desperately needed that 1.5 elsewhere where the 2TB drive wouldn't do.

Of course if someone wants to donate large quantities of lifetimed TiVos and hard drives, I'll be happy to do some experimenting.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:19 PM   #8057
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I plan to confirm this by deleting any show with a banner ad on my stock Tivo and see if the [S P S Pause S] code stops working.
Sorry it took so long, but I have confirmed that a TivoHD with an original stock hard drive acts the same way in regards to the S P S Pause S code.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:10 PM   #8058
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I'm not saying it makes sense to use a 2TB drive to provide 1.35TB of storage if you have a 1.5TB drive available, only that it might work if you desperately needed that 1.5 elsewhere where the 2TB drive wouldn't do.
Exactly what I recall also, however I have used a 1.5TB in an older THD where I only used the 1.35GB of it, but there's a supersize caveat or something similar. My big question in both threads is if I can use the 1.35TB section of the 1.5TB AND an external 1.0TB before wasting a weekend testing it on my original S3.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:41 PM   #8059
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Exactly what I recall also, however I have used a 1.5TB in an older THD where I only used the 1.35GB of it, but there's a supersize caveat or something similar. My big question in both threads is if I can use the 1.35TB section of the 1.5TB AND an external 1.0TB before wasting a weekend testing it on my original S3.
As I understand it, S3s have some sort of coding that allows them to have the original hard drive and an external up to 1TB (or 1.1 depending on whether you're talking binary or decimal bytes), which is why the total is larger for the otherwise (except for THX certification and original drive size) identical HD XL than for the HD, and apparently there's some sort of "loophole" that allows applying that total to an internal drive, but that total is a hard limit whether there's one drive involved or two.

Having said that, somebody here or on the site which may not be named is claiming success with a 2TB internal in some flavor of S3, and there's even one guy somewhere saying he had success with a 2TB in an S2 DT. I'll see if I can find them again.

In the meantime spend your weekend doing what I wish I were still young enough to.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:44 AM   #8060
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Having said that, somebody here or on the site which may not be named is claiming success with a 2TB internal in some flavor of S3, and there's even one guy somewhere saying he had success with a 2TB in an S2 DT. I'll see if I can find them again.
I have a TCD648250B S3 TiVo that has a 2TB internal drive installed.
The HD recording time is 318hrs.
This was a new, preconditioned, WD AVGP drive purchased from dvr_dude.

So far, so good...
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:46 AM   #8061
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Well, after six or seven years of answering thousands of questions and spending untold hours giving guidance to others on this and a good half-dozen other threads that AFAIK has been correct more often than not...hey, I'm ready to retire and you young bucks take over!

So step up and have fun all!
Thanks for your help and encouragement, Rich.

You will be missed.

Cheers,
Tom
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:35 PM   #8062
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Thanks for your help and encouragement, Rich.

You will be missed.

Cheers,
Tom
+1

Many words of encouragement to you in anything you might do.

And a big THANKS!.... for all the help,
Chris
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:41 PM   #8063
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My TiVoHD's drive just bit the bullet so I was on here doing a bunch of research about what drive to get. In doing my searching I've found Hitachi has released 2 new revisions of drives mentioned here. It looks like these were just released and also explains why I can't find anymore CinemaStar 7K1000.C drives in stock anywhere.

These drives now put 1TB per platter so they reduce costs, complexity, & power. They also use the new 4k file sectors but luckily do e512 to emulate the old 512b sectors while still giving a performance gain.

The 7K1000.D versus the 7K1000.C is now 3.7w at idle versus 4.4w, 1822mb/s platter transfer rate versus 1589mb/s, and is 2.5 Bels at idle versus 2.5 Bels at idle.

The 5K1000.B versus the 5K1000 is now 3.0w at idle versus 3.4w, 1443mb/s platter transfer rate versus 1265mb/s, and is 2.0 Bels at idle versus 2.4 Bels at idle.

The new CinemaStar 5K1000.B looks to be a really nice drive in terms of power, acoustics, and speed. The problem is it seems both drives are so new they're not available to order yet...

My one concern is these are SATA3 devices, do the TiVo's have issues with those?

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Old 09-09-2011, 04:47 PM   #8064
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Their official press release was 3 days ago on the 6th, this bit was at the end but no mention on exact dates or price yet.

Quote:
The Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000.D and 5K1000.B CoolSpin versions are shipping today to distributors and channel partners. CinemaStar drives are expected to ship in the Fall.

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Old 09-09-2011, 05:27 PM   #8065
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My TiVoHD's drive just bit the bullet so I was on here doing a bunch of research about what drive to get. In doing my searching I've found Hitachi has released 2 new revisions of drives mentioned here. It looks like these were just released and also explains why I can't find anymore CinemaStar 7K1000.C drives in stock anywhere.
  • CinemaStar 5K1000.B - hitachigst_DOT_com/internal-drives/consumer-electronics/cinemastar/cinemastar-5k1000b
  • CinemaStar 7K1000.D - hitachigst_DOT_com/internal-drives/consumer-electronics/cinemastar/cinemastar-7k1000d

These drives now put 1TB per platter so they reduce costs, complexity, & power. They also use the new 4k file sectors but luckily do e512 to emulate the old 512b sectors while still giving a performance gain.

The 7K1000.D versus the 7K1000.C is now 3.7w at idle versus 4.4w, 1822mb/s platter transfer rate versus 1589mb/s, and is 2.5 Bels at idle versus 2.5 Bels at idle.

The 5K1000.B versus the 5K1000 is now 3.0w at idle versus 3.4w, 1443mb/s platter transfer rate versus 1265mb/s, and is 2.0 Bels at idle versus 2.4 Bels at idle.

The new CinemaStar 5K1000.B looks to be a really nice drive in terms of power, acoustics, and speed. The problem is it seems both drives are so new they're not available to order yet...

My one concern is these are SATA3 devices, do the TiVo's have issues with those?
If they're 6GB/s (or is it 6Gb/s?), they should be able to autonegotiate down to 3, just like the 3s could drop to 1.5, so if the TiVo's SATA port is a 3 per second, probably good to go, but if only 1.5, I don't know if the 6s are smart/backwards compatible enough for that or not.


(I bet rich would know )
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:27 PM   #8066
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As I understand it, S3s have some sort of coding that allows them to have the original hard drive and an external up to 1TB (or 1.1 depending on whether you're talking binary or decimal bytes), which is why the total is larger for the otherwise (except for THX certification and original drive size) identical HD XL than for the HD
I'm not sure what you mean by "code". The Linux kernel deployed with the S3 Tivo utilizes 32 bit signed integers in its ide-disk.c module. This means the limit for a partition size with 512 byte sectors is 2 ^ 31 * 512 = 1,099,511,627,776 bytes.

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and apparently there's some sort of "loophole" that allows applying that total to an internal drive, but that total is a hard limit whether there's one drive involved or two.
It appears tivoapp has some 32 bit pointers somewhere that limit the total size to 2TB.

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Having said that, somebody here or on the site which may not be named is claiming success with a 2TB internal in some flavor of S3, and there's even one guy somewhere saying he had success with a 2TB in an S2 DT. I'll see if I can find them again.
I suspect DVR_Dude has learned how to either create a viable partition map with more than 16 partitions, or else has learned how to merge MFS partitions.
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:55 PM   #8067
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Well, after six or seven years of answering thousands of questions and spending untold hours giving guidance to others on this and a good half-dozen other threads that AFAIK has been correct more often than not...hey, I'm ready to retire and you young bucks take over!

So step up and have fun all!
Rich, it would be a huge loss for you to leave this thread. I wouldn't blame you for leaving it, but I for one really appreciate all you add to it. I will miss you and the great advice and assistance you provide here.
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:24 PM   #8068
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I'm not sure what you mean by "code". The Linux kernel deployed with the S3 Tivo utilizes 32 bit signed integers in its ide-disk.c module. This means the limit for a partition size with 512 byte sectors is 2 ^ 31 * 512 = 1,099,511,627,776 bytes.


It appears tivoapp has some 32 bit pointers somewhere that limit the total size to 2TB.


I suspect DVR_Dude has learned how to either create a viable partition map with more than 16 partitions, or else has learned how to merge MFS partitions.

Well, I was talking more about the TiVo-specific software than the Linux stuff to which they add it, but if there's an approximate 1TB limit per partition, perhaps the external drive is, the way S3s are set up/designed, supposed to only have one partition on it (which would obviously have a maximum 1TB size), so the S3 sees anything in addition to the partitions on the original internal drive as an external drive and that's how you get the original drive size plus a TB overall limit on S3s.

So I'm going to guess that getting an S3 to use all of a 2TB drive means convincing it to allow the MFS partitions that it thinks of as being on the internal drive (as opposed to that final 1TB partition that it thinks of as being on the external drive) to be larger than the size they are on the original internal drive.

I'd like to see the partition maps of the original internal drives of the 3 different S3 platform models, but I don't have any of those machines to take apart and look at with MFS Live or WinMFS.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:21 PM   #8069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
If they're 6GB/s (or is it 6Gb/s?), they should be able to autonegotiate down to 3, just like the 3s could drop to 1.5, so if the TiVo's SATA port is a 3 per second, probably good to go, but if only 1.5, I don't know if the 6s are smart/backwards compatible enough for that or not.
I hunted down the Hitachi compatability guide for the drive.

http://lite.myfabrik.com/tech/techli...Guide_v1.0.pdf

They list a good number of old SATA I (1.5) motherboards, chipsets, and controller cards as being supported by both drives. The testing was mainly done to prove the new 4k cluster e512 tech worked flawlessly on older equipment but it also proves it works great on old SATA I & II systems.

Last edited by brentil : 09-10-2011 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:36 AM   #8070
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Ok, more research about the new Advanced Format 4k cluster drives like these. Even though they do e512 emulation it still requires OS, partition, & application support to prevent performance degredation.

Quote:
If a partitioning or disk imaging utility is used, the partitions must be aligned such that the logical partition starts on a physical 4K sector boundary. For a logical block size of 512 bytes, this can be accomplished by ensuring that the partition starts on a multiple of 8. In the “misaligned” example above, the 4K block starts at logical block #4, which does not align with a physical 4K sector (logical block #0 or #8)

Even when using a 4K operating system, it is possible for individual applications to ignore OS settings and attempt to write in 512-byte blocks. With 512-byte emulation, these applications will continue to work. However, for optimum performance, applications should work in conjunction with the operating system and use 4K blocks when writing to the file system.

512-byte Write (Read-Modify-Write)
When the host attempts to write a single 512-byte logical block, the hard drive will first read the 4K physical sector containing the 512 bytes that are to be overwritten. Next, it will insert the 512 bytes of new data and write the entire 4K block of data back to the media. This process is called a “Read-Modify-Write”. The drive must read the existing data, modify a subset, and then write the data back to the disk. This process can require additional revolutions of the hard disk.

For best performance, it is recommended that the hard drive be partitioned correctly upon first use. By creating aligned partitions, a single 4K block read or write will result in a single physical sector read or write on the hard drive.

Partitioning Software:
Linux
GPARTED
Gnu Parted 2.1+ use “-a optimal” or “-a minimal” options
Ignoring all of that bad news alone the S3 TiVo 11 software runs on Linux kernel 2.4.x and 4K support wasn't added until Linux kernel 2.6.34+. The S4 software 14 runs Linux kernel 2.6.x from before Aug 2009 so it wouldn't even support it. Digging into the code on the www.tivo.com/linux/ for the 14 source code I noticed there's a version 16 also but it is only 2.6.31.

Based on all of that I would highly recomend staying away from any Advanced Feature 4K drive in a TiVo device. If you were building a PC DVR they would actually be very beneficial, but for our needs it would decrease performance.

Last edited by brentil : 09-10-2011 at 01:59 AM.
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