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Old 05-20-2011, 08:16 PM   #931
sliu2005
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TiVo Premiere stuck in reboot loop

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Originally Posted by sliu2005 View Post
Before reporting status of my rescue effort, here's a summarize of my situation so far: My comer'ed 2TB TiVo Premiere is stuck in reboot loop continuously. WD diags tool reported S.M.A.R.T. failure, I got a replacement WD20EVDS today and attempt to save my recordings.

wdidle3 disabled the timer of the new drive, and now jmfs is copying from defective 2TB to the new 2TB. Based on current 1500 kB/s rate, it would take more than 2 weeks to finish the copy! That is insane, not sure if can live that long before my family kills me :-)

I understand jmfs is designed to copy from stock drive to a larger drive, would copy from 2TB to 2TB work and preserve expanded/supersized partition? (I suppose I should only use Copy function, without touching expand/supersize functions since it was already done on the old drive)? If I am to wait for 2 weeks for the copy to finish, I better make sure this approach will work.

any alternative way to do this? how about dd_rescue from MFSLive? mfslive.org never mentioned TiVo Premiere, so does it even work with Premiere?
Just realized that jmfs in fact uses dd_rescue to copy the drive so never mind. Will have my fingers crossed for the next 2 weeks. It is unclear to me what data is corrupted, I only hope it will not prevent me from boot from the new drive. I will not know until 2 weeks later.

Anyone know why dd_rescue is so much slower than common Windows disk imaging software like Norton Ghost or Acronis TrueImage?

Last edited by sliu2005 : 05-21-2011 at 01:20 PM. Reason: corrected: 1500 kB/s, not MB/s
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:39 PM   #932
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Anyone know why dd_rescue is so much slower than common Windows disk imaging software like Norton Ghost or Acronis TrueImage?
dd is sector by sector, including the "empty" space. IIRC, Ghost can do that, but typically is used with compressed images, copying only what is referenced by the partition table.

I'm assuming your drives are using direct SATA connections, and not a USB/SATA drive dock. That would seriously bog down the transfer.
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:47 PM   #933
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dd is sector by sector, including the "empty" space. IIRC, Ghost can do that, but typically is used with compressed images, copying only what is referenced by the partition table.

I'm assuming your drives are using direct SATA connections, and not a USB/SATA drive dock. That would seriously bog down the transfer.
Well, but 2 weeks for 2TB still seems to be unusually slow. Although I haven't tried to clone 2TB in Windows, based on past experience it may be a few days max.

Yes, I connected both drives to motherboard SATA ports. dd_rescue shows avg transfer rate is 1420 kB/s, a far cry from SATA 3Gbps limit. Maybe the linux distribution used by jmfs does not have proper SATA driver?
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:49 AM   #934
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Well, but 2 weeks for 2TB still seems to be unusually slow. Although I haven't tried to clone 2TB in Windows, based on past experience it may be a few days max.

Yes, I connected both drives to motherboard SATA ports. dd_rescue shows avg transfer rate is 1420 kB/s, a far cry from SATA 3Gbps limit. Maybe the linux distribution used by jmfs does not have proper SATA driver?
You're not on an old PC doing this, are you? I use an ancient Pentium III for my copying. It's slow, but it gets there.

Also, dd_rescue goes slower on the corrupt parts of the drive. Your instant throughput may actually drop when it gets to the bad parts.
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Old 05-21-2011, 12:44 PM   #935
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You're not on an old PC doing this, are you? I use an ancient Pentium III for my copying. It's slow, but it gets there.

Also, dd_rescue goes slower on the corrupt parts of the drive. Your instant throughput may actually drop when it gets to the bad parts.
I am using my HTPC with i3-2100 3.1Ghz on ASUS P8H67-M EVO motherboard, it is quite new. Now here's what's get interesting. I switched to an ancient PC - AMD Athlon XP 2100, connecting drives via USB dock and adapter, and start over again. Now the speed is showing 2075 kB/s (vs 1420), a slight improvement. so It will took slight less than 2 weeks still

Good point on dd_rescue slows down on bad sectors. from what I read, it should proceed with full speed until find bad sectors. however it shows 0 errors on both PCs. Maybe SMART failure triggered the slower mode for the entire drive?

Last edited by sliu2005 : 05-21-2011 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 05-21-2011, 02:05 PM   #936
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I am using my HTPC with i3-2100 3.1Ghz on ASUS P8H67-M EVO motherboard, it is quite new. Now here's what's get interesting. I switched to an ancient PC - AMD Athlon XP 2100, connecting drives via USB dock and adapter, and start over again. Now the speed is showing 2075 kB/s (vs 1420), a slight improvement. so It will took slight less than 2 weeks still
Since you've tried 2 different MB's then would it be safe to assume it it is not a JMFS driver problem?

And might one assume you used the SATA ports on the ASUS board?

If you still have the stock drive try copying that one as the source and see what speed you get.

Another thing to consider is that dock and adapter USB 2.0 and SATA II compliant?

If not then that just slows things down even more.

Just out of curiosity....

Right now I'm copying from the stock 320G to a 1TB eads (don't have a spare 2TB) using 1 sata port and a Thermaltake Blackx dock to a USB 2.0 port and the average rate so far is 30123 kB/sec.

This is on an ASROCK P43DE MB, 2 Gig ram. Q6600 cpu.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:00 PM   #937
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Since you've tried 2 different MB's then would it be safe to assume it it is not a JMFS driver problem?
I agree.

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And might one assume you used the SATA ports on the ASUS board?
Yes

Quote:
If you still have the stock drive try copying that one as the source and see what speed you get.
Thanks for the suggestion. In my eagerness of getting TiVo back in order, I missed the obvious. Tried this on the Athlon XP 2100, copying from stock drive to new 2TB, it shows 14,000 kB/s! so I guess the defective drive is the cause.

Quote:
Another thing to consider is that dock and adapter USB 2.0 and SATA II compliant?
Yes.


Once I hooked up the defective 2TB, copy rate slowed down again. So finally I narrowed down the cause to the defective drive itself. this time, it is even slower: only 800 kB/s! The crazy thing is, it is because I lay the drive on the table with label side up. Once I flip the drive to label side down (after power down of course), the rate went back up to 2000 kB/s . This is way over my head.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:49 PM   #938
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Thanks for the suggestion. In my eagerness of getting TiVo back in order, I missed the obvious. Tried this on the Athlon XP 2100, copying from stock drive to new 2TB, it shows 14,000 kB/s! so I guess the defective drive is the cause.

Once I hooked up the defective 2TB, copy rate slowed down again. So finally I narrowed down the cause to the defective drive itself. this time, it is even slower: only 800 kB/s! The crazy thing is, it is because I lay the drive on the table with label side up. Once I flip the drive to label side down (after power down of course), the rate went back up to 2000 kB/s . This is way over my head.
Even if you were ever able to get a complete copy, I would doubt it would even work since you are copying corrupted data to the new drive.

If it were me I'd bite the bullet and just do the copy and expand and supersize from the stock drive.
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:21 PM   #939
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Even if you were ever able to get a complete copy, I would doubt it would even work since you are copying corrupted data to the new drive.

If it were me I'd bite the bullet and just do the copy and expand and supersize from the stock drive.
I am hoping the corruption did not affect critical data. So far, dd_rescue shows 0 error count, so I am hopeful. Even if I cannot boot from new drive, I still have kickstart to try, which will have a much better chance of success on the new drive. Old drive has too many recordings for me to give up early.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:24 PM   #940
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I upgraded by premiere (DVR Dude) to a 2tb drive. Now I would like to create a backup hard drive. Anyone have an idea of the easiest way to do this? Would simple backup software successfully achieve this (I currently use Paragon)?
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:43 PM   #941
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I upgraded by premiere (DVR Dude) to a 2tb drive. Now I would like to create a backup hard drive. Anyone have an idea of the easiest way to do this? Would simple backup software successfully achieve this (I currently use Paragon)?
Your original hard drive, sitting on a shelf--that's your backup.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:32 PM   #942
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upgrade problem

I am new to this upgrade thing but I used Comers disc and followed his instructions but the program did not recognize the new WD 2T disc. Do I have to make the new disk a slave?
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:59 PM   #943
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I am new to this upgrade thing but I used Comers disc and followed his instructions but the program did not recognize the new WD 2T disc. Do I have to make the new disk a slave?
Welcome to the forum. To answer your question, no...and that solution begs the question, how do you have your original TiVo hard drive and your new 2TB hard drive connected to your computer? Also, what TiVo model are you upgrading?
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:18 PM   #944
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more details

Sorry a bit short of detail. I have a Premiere XL and am trying to connect with USB to Sata2 using an HP laptop.
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:35 PM   #945
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Sorry a bit short of detail. I have a Premiere XL and am trying to connect with USB to Sata2 using an HP laptop.
Ah, okay. Laptop upgrades have only been marginally successful. BIOS issues are often problematic.

Both drives have to be connected at the same time and most folks use a PC and ideally connect both drives to SATA ports on the motherboard. Failing that option the use of SATA/USB docks or adapters works well also, it just takes much longer to complete the imaging. Here's a good example of a SATA USB dock adapter (two of these would be required; one of each drive):

http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Sa...6460332&sr=8-1

It sounds like you're trying to use one of these?

http://www.apdrives.com/

If so I don't know if anyone has ever tried using one of those.

Is there any chance you can get access to a desktop PC to perform the upgrade?
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:21 PM   #946
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Using laptop

I do have an old PC desktop I could try. You are right I was hoping to use that adapter thing. I looked a long time for info on this but saw nothing about laptop problems. Thanks for taking the time to help me. I will post if successful.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:38 AM   #947
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I do have an old PC desktop I could try. You are right I was hoping to use that adapter thing. I looked a long time for info on this but saw nothing about laptop problems. Thanks for taking the time to help me. I will post if successful.
Sounds good...keep us posted and happy upgrading!
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:21 AM   #948
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Laptop for upgrade

I did the upgrade successfully on a Dell laptop E4310 using USB adapters. It took about 8 hours but worth the time. My old desktop did not do the job, I think that is more to do with the state of the PC than a failure of the process. Thanks to Comer for doing the spade work.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:57 AM   #949
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I did the upgrade successfully on a Dell laptop E4310 using USB adapters. It took about 8 hours but worth the time. My old desktop did not do the job, I think that is more to do with the state of the PC than a failure of the process. Thanks to Comer for doing the spade work.
Nice! Congratulations and enjoy!
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Old 05-30-2011, 03:13 PM   #950
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3TB drives and Tivo and JMFS.

For those that think you can use a 3TB in a TIVO read this message.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...52#post8544452
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
Premiere WD20EVDS = 317 hrs HD.
XL4 = 318 hrs HD
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Old 05-30-2011, 03:32 PM   #951
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For those that think you can use a 3TB in a TIVO read this message.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...52#post8544452
TiVos don't even recognize 3TB drives. It has nothing to do with JMFS. I did a dd copy from a stock TPXL drive to a 3TB Western Digital with no expanding and the TiVo wouldn't boot from it.
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:59 PM   #952
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TiVos don't even recognize 3TB drives. It has nothing to do with JMFS. I did a dd copy from a stock TPXL drive to a 3TB Western Digital with no expanding and the TiVo wouldn't boot from it.
Ya know, I never even thought about trying that. So, I did a copy only of the TP to the Hitachi 3TB and shur nuff.... that same power loop.


Looks like the TIVO doesn't like drives > 2TB.
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
Premiere WD20EVDS = 317 hrs HD.
XL4 = 318 hrs HD
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:55 PM   #953
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Looks like the TIVO doesn't like drives > 2TB.
I'm guessing that it's the drive controller in the TiVo that just isn't capable of using the drive. I wonder if it has to do with the advanced format.
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:38 PM   #954
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I'm guessing that it's the drive controller in the TiVo that just isn't capable of using the drive. I wonder if it has to do with the advanced format.
Apparently some people have used "advanced format" 2TB drives successfully.

Some 2TB drives (WD20EARS, WD20EACS, for example) are "advanced format" and some (WD20EADS, for example) are not.

I suspect it's the "over 2TB" part that's the problem.
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:53 PM   #955
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I suspect it's the "over 2TB" part that's the problem.
Yeah, could be as simple as a hard size limitation.

My 3TB drive came with a SATA drive controller and a note saying that some computers won't recognize the drive and to use the included drive controller if that's the case. That makes me think that there's something unique about 3TB drives that older (or cheap) drive controllers can't handle.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:17 PM   #956
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Yeah, could be as simple as a hard size limitation.

My 3TB drive came with a SATA drive controller and a note saying that some computers won't recognize the drive and to use the included drive controller if that's the case. That makes me think that there's something unique about 3TB drives that older (or cheap) drive controllers can't handle.
For computers, it might be the 2TB limit, hardware-wise, or the limit of the partition table we've been using for over a quarter-century now, or the BIOS structure that's been around since then (and before) or a limit of XP/Server 2003 and older OS'es hard coded to expect 512 byte sectors.


Here's a quite good and informative article about the whole "advanced format" mess.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...r-xp-users.ars
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:42 PM   #957
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Since it acts like when one forgets to plug in the drive cable.... the infinite power up loop. That it would be more a controller incompatibility than the OS on the drive.

No matter what the cause... a 3TB drive does not work in the TP.
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:33 PM   #958
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Ok. I'm having issues with my jmfs copy.

So my hard drive started going a few days ago on my Premiere. Symptoms lasted a few days and i decided to unplug my TiVo (to hopefully minimize the damage) for 2 days while my WD15EARS was being shipped to me. I started jmfs tonight and if started off fast. I have both devices connected via sata to my mobo. It's been running for approx 6 hrs now, and the last 4 or so hrs have been mostly at a crawl. I'm only at the 113 GB mark, and I'm already at 277 errors...and counting! I didn't think it was that bad considering it still works in the TiVo, albeit choppy sometimes. Do bad HDD's usually take this long to copy?

Any suggestions? If it can't copy, what are my options? I knew this wouldn't be easy!

Thanks.

Last edited by AgentS : 06-04-2011 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:17 AM   #959
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Ok. I'm having issues with my jmfs copy.

So my hard drive started going a few days ago on my Premiere. Symptoms lasted a few days and i decided to unplug my TiVo (to hopefully minimize the damage) for 2 days while my WD15EARS was being shipped to me. I started jmfs tonight and if started off fast. I have both devices connected via sata to my mobo. It's been running for approx 6 hrs now, and the last 4 or so hrs have been mostly at a crawl. I'm only at the 113 GB mark, and I'm already at 277 errors...and counting! I didn't think it was that bad considering it still works in the TiVo, albeit choppy sometimes. Do bad HDD's usually take this long to copy?

Any suggestions? If it can't copy, what are my options? I knew this wouldn't be easy!

Thanks.
Just a somewhat educated guess: If JMFS fails to make a copy, then you can try to see if Winmfs can make a usable truncated backup image of the original drive(no saved recordings). If winmfs cannot make a viable backup image, you may need to obtain a good Premiere image from "somewhere" and use winmfs, or other tools to image a new drive.

Did you ever try running the builtin Tivo "kickstart" diagnostics on the original drive while it was still in the Premiere?
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #960
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Ok. I'm having issues with my jmfs copy.

So my hard drive started going a few days ago on my Premiere. Symptoms lasted a few days and i decided to unplug my TiVo (to hopefully minimize the damage) for 2 days while my WD15EARS was being shipped to me. I started jmfs tonight and if started off fast. I have both devices connected via sata to my mobo. It's been running for approx 6 hrs now, and the last 4 or so hrs have been mostly at a crawl. I'm only at the 113 GB mark, and I'm already at 277 errors...and counting! I didn't think it was that bad considering it still works in the TiVo, albeit choppy sometimes. Do bad HDD's usually take this long to copy?

Any suggestions? If it can't copy, what are my options? I knew this wouldn't be easy!

Thanks.
Those are read errors. And it will take a long as JMFS has to in attempting to copy the source drive.

I found when I was playing with the 3TB drive that my stock drive was showing errors. So I plugged it back in the TP and it booted up just fine.
So I pulled it and copied it to another 320G. It hit the errors at the same location as before and it took about 8 hrs to complete. I use a spare computer so I wasn't really paying attention as to how long.

Plugged that into the TP and it booted up just fine. I let it connect to TIVO and it downloaded the 14.8 update and it went through those motions and it booted back up and everything seems to work.

Then I took the Seagate 320G with 14.8 and copied it to a 1TB and it copied in the usual 3 hrs with no read errors. And of course that copy booted up in the TP as it should.

You could try the KS 54 on the stock drive to see what it says. I never did on my stock drive.
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
Premiere WD20EVDS = 317 hrs HD.
XL4 = 318 hrs HD
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